Obama Comes Out Swinging at Cynical GOP on Health Care, Addresses Race Issues in Prof. Gates Arrest

[rushmc 23]

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They encouraged if not extorted the housing business to create what pulled the economy into the shitter...

You're being too kind.

They intentionally chartered, created and subsidized organizations that were motivated, by design, to inflate housing prices to unsustainable levels and extend loans to as many borrowers as possible with the most relaxed standards.

Who decided that Fanny and Freddie needed to "encourage home ownership" and wrote in, as their goals, driving up the percentage of people who own homes? Who funded their creation to push those irresponsibilities? Couldn't have been the same government some people now think is the solution to those problems?

And now "THEY" want to "FIX" it.

Scarry shit huh......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[futuredivot 0]

are you insinuating that blowing Barney Frank doesn't make you a financial genius?

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[rushmc 23]

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are you insinuating that blowing Barney Frank doesn't make you a financial genius?

Ah, I dont know but, I stayed at a Holiday Inn once.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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They encouraged if not extorted the housing business to create what pulled the economy into the shitter...

You're being too kind.

They intentionally chartered, created and subsidized organizations that were motivated, by design, to inflate housing prices to unsustainable levels and extend loans to as many borrowers as possible with the most relaxed standards.

Who decided that Fanny and Freddie needed to "encourage home ownership" and wrote in, as their goals, driving up the percentage of people who own homes? Who funded their creation to push those irresponsibilities? Couldn't have been the same government some people now think is the solution to those problems?

Andrew Cuomo?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[idrankwhat 0]

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..... they don't need any more regulation.

So you think that it's fine that banks can make up whatever rules they want with regard to lending and investing? Why, if they did that they might lend massive amounts of money to anybody and everybody, including people who have no documentation, collect the closing fees, wash their hands of any responsibility by bundling the mortgages as securities and dumping them off on other banks who leverage themselves by 30 times in the investment, as enabled by the bogus score that they essentially bought from credit rating firms. Then, after these junk securities have polluted practically all of the banks in the entire world, the house of cards can collapse and drag down the world economy and hit the "richest" (in paper only) nation so hard that it requires a massive influx of government borrowing to stabilize and provide bonuses for those who ran their businesses, as well as others, into the ground.
I know it's far fetched to think that banking institutions might not act in the long term best interest of themselves, their shareholders and their fellow countrymen, but it could happen.
No wait....it did happen.

[mnealtx 0]

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..... they don't need any more regulation.

So you think that it's fine that banks can make up whatever rules they want with regard to lending and investing? Why, if they did that they might lend massive amounts of money to anybody and everybody, including people who have no documentation, collect the closing fees, wash their hands of any responsibility by bundling the mortgages as securities and dumping them off on other banks who leverage themselves by 30 times in the investment, as enabled by the bogus score that they essentially bought from credit rating firms. Then, after these junk securities have polluted practically all of the banks in the entire world, the house of cards can collapse and drag down the world economy and hit the "richest" (in paper only) nation so hard that it requires a massive influx of government borrowing to stabilize and provide bonuses for those who ran their businesses, as well as others, into the ground.
I know it's far fetched to think that banking institutions might not act in the long term best interest of themselves, their shareholders and their fellow countrymen, but it could happen.
No wait....it did happen.

Nice rant - care to show where I advocated that? (my quoted post, above, was the rest of the argument from Franks/Waters)

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[TomAiello 26]

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So you think that it's fine that banks can make up whatever rules they want with regard to lending and investing?

Yes.

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Why, if they did that they might lend massive amounts of money to anybody and everybody, including people who have no documentation, collect the closing fees...

And if their loans and investments perform poorly, they go out of business and someone a little wiser starts a bank.

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...wash their hands of any responsibility by bundling the mortgages as securities and dumping them off on other banks who leverage themselves by 30 times in the investment...

Other banks, who as money professionals ought to perform their due diligence, and failing to do so ought to take a loss, and doing so enough ought to go out of business?



Sounds ok to me.

What's not ok is funnelling those guys billions of taxpayer dollars to save their asses. They make bad decisions, they ought to face the consequences.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[idrankwhat 0]

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Nice rant - care to show where I advocated that? (my quoted post, above, was the rest of the argument from Franks/Waters)

Ooops. You're right. I accidentally lumped your response in with the Limbaugh Digest version of the mortgage crisis that was being posted. (is that a word?)

[idrankwhat 0]

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What's not ok is funnelling those guys billions of taxpayer dollars to save their asses. They make bad decisions, they ought to face the consequences.

I agree with you. But what do you do when they screw up so badly that their failure would cause a complete collapse of a financial system, plunging the entire country into a deep depression?
It's a tough call.

[marks2065 0]

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What's not ok is funnelling those guys billions of taxpayer dollars to save their asses. They make bad decisions, they ought to face the consequences.

I agree with you. But what do you do when they screw up so badly that their failure would cause a complete collapse of a financial system, plunging the entire country into a deep depression?
It's a tough call.

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either way we pay the price. not holding those responsible accountable for their actions is just as criminal. Making our children and grand children pay our way out of debt is also criminal. the bailouts should not have happened and those that let their companies fail through bad investments should be stripped of any money they may have to repay the losses and put in jail if they did something illegal. Our generation should pay our own way out and the government should set an example by cutting programs and budgets until the shortfall is covered not doubling or trippling the debt.

The only thing that Obama Polosi and Ried have shown is that they don't give a shit about our country, the people, it's pride or the sacrifice of the people that came before them. Obama used a bad situation to con alot of people into electing him president. Shame on the voters for not insisting on asking the hard questions before voting these Lowlifes into office.

[justinb138 0]

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I agree with you. But what do you do when they screw up so badly that their failure would cause a complete collapse of a financial system, plunging the entire country into a deep depression?
It's a tough call.

The economy is already plunging into a deep depression, they just threw $700 billion away in the process.

And do you really trust anything the government says about their failure destroying the financial system? Government loves crises, even if they have to create them.

Look at the Auto Industry - The same people said that if they went into bankruptcy that it would destroy the entire auto industry. Where are we now? They're bankrupt and the US taxpayers are out 20-30 billion dollars.

[Gawain 0]

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I agree with you. But what do you do when they screw up so badly that their failure would cause a complete collapse of a financial system, plunging the entire country into a deep depression?
It's a tough call.

The economy is already plunging into a deep depression, they just threw $700 billion $2+ Trillion not including the monetizing of of the debt, or the $8Tr the Fed injected into circulation... away in the process.

And do you really trust anything the government says about their failure destroying the financial system? Government loves crises, even if they have to create them.

Look at the Auto Industry - The same people said that if they went into bankruptcy that it would destroy the entire auto industry. Where are we now? They're bankrupt and the US taxpayers are out 20-30 billion dollars. $50-80 billion not including future grants from DoE for future development.

Fixed it for you.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[idrankwhat 0]

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The economy is already plunging into a deep depression, they just threw $700 billion away in the process.

And do you really trust anything the government says about their failure destroying the financial system? Government loves crises, even if they have to create them.

Look at the Auto Industry - The same people said that if they went into bankruptcy that it would destroy the entire auto industry. Where are we now? They're bankrupt and the US taxpayers are out 20-30 billion dollars.

Not wanting to drift too far away from the thread topic but...
I need to find the source but there appear to be some strong indicators that we're at the bottom of the recession. I'll admit that there was a lot of waste in the bailout package but if we avoided a depression then maybe it worked. The same goes for the auto bailout. The automakers went in and out of bankruptcy extraordinarily quickly. We won't know for sure what would have happened if we didn't implement these bailouts. We still have an economy and we still have an auto industry. For me it's a toss up. We've maintained more of the status quo than I would have preferred but we're also not living in a nation with over 20% unemployment and a collapsed banking system. Maybe the latter would have been better for the country in the long run. My hope is that recent mistakes don't get forgotten too soon and that we work towards a more sustainable existence, as opposed to the "get mine now and get out" attitude.

[justinb138 0]

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I need to find the source but there appear to be some strong indicators that we're at the bottom of the recession.

These "predictions" are coming from people that failed to realize we were falling into a recession in the first place. The few that predicted exactly what is happening now don't think we've seen anything yet.

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I'll admit that there was a lot of waste in the bailout package but if we avoided a depression then maybe it worked. The same goes for the auto bailout.

Time will tell. I'm not very optimistic about it.

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The automakers went in and out of bankruptcy extraordinarily quickly.

I'm not sure how screwed up the process was, but I do know the courts set a dangerous precedent in the process.

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We won't know for sure what would have happened if we didn't implement these bailouts. We still have an economy and we still have an auto industry. For me it's a toss up.

For the time being. Time will tell.

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We've maintained more of the status quo than I would have preferred but we're also not living in a nation with over 20% unemployment and a collapsed banking system.

Not yet.

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Maybe the latter would have been better for the country in the long run. My hope is that recent mistakes don't get forgotten too soon and that we work towards a more sustainable existence, as opposed to the "get mine now and get out" attitude.

I think it would have. Recent mistakes aren't being forgotten, they're being rewarded. The government is telling people that companies are "too big to fail", which is basically a government backing of the company - which causes people to take risks they wouldn't normally take.

[nerdgirl 0]

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I need to find the source but there appear to be some strong indicators that we're at the bottom of the recession.

While I suspect other could be cited, two indicators of which I am aware:

Mortgage rates are rising again from the 50 year lows earlier this spring. (At one point 30-yr fixed rates were even lower than it that story. )
&

First housing price gain since July 2006. It’s small (0.5%) and there are lots of reasons why.

They're both still short term indicators.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[idrankwhat 0]

I believe that what I heard was this interview regarding analysis from these folks.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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So you think that it's fine that banks can make up whatever rules they want with regard to lending and investing?

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Yes.



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In Reply To
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Why, if they did that they might lend massive amounts of money to anybody and everybody, including people who have no documentation, collect the closing fees...

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And if their loans and investments perform poorly, they go out of business and someone a little wiser starts a bank.

You are absolutely right. The only part you left out is:

The top executives of the bank made roughly $500 million each pushing these loans and investments that they knew would bankrupt the company. They made off with a fortune while the general public is out all their life savings.

This utopian thought that companies will be on their best behaviour and act in a way to ensure long term survival when left to their own devices is nice, but nowhere near the truth.

There have to be rules to protect the general public to some extend.

[TomAiello 26]

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I'll admit that there was a lot of waste in the bailout package but if we avoided a depression then maybe it worked.

According to the forecasts made by President Obama's economic team, the stimulus actually made things worse--not better.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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The top executives of the bank made roughly $500 million each pushing these loans and investments that they knew would bankrupt the company. They made off with a fortune while the general public is out all their life savings.

Excellent job on their part then. In fact, they did so good that I think we ought to encourage them to do it over and over again. How could we do that?

Hey, I've got an idea, let's funnel billions of taxpayer dollars to them as a reward!

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Excellent job on their part then. In fact, they did so good that I think we ought to encourage them to do it over and over again. How could we do that?

Hey, I've got an idea, let's funnel billions of taxpayer dollars to them as a reward!

Which is a completely different issue.

So, are you still in favour of no regulations to protect the general public? You truly feel that these "market forces' you highlight above would ensure proper behaviour?

[TomAiello 26]

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...regulations to protect the general public?

Which "general public" is that?

The specific individuals who chose to deposit funds in those banks?

The specific individuals who chose to take out loans from them?

The specific individuals who purchases shares in them?

I'm not seeing any innocent members of the "general public" here. Just a bunch of individuals who've made decisions that put them in a bad position. Why should they be rewarded with billions of taxpayer dollars? Shouldn't they face the consequences of their own bad decisions?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[idrankwhat 0]

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Which "general public" is that?

The specific individuals who chose to deposit funds in those banks?

The specific individuals who chose to take out loans from them?

The specific individuals who purchases shares in them?

I'm not seeing any innocent members of the "general public" here. Just a bunch of individuals who've made decisions that put them in a bad position. Why should they be rewarded with billions of taxpayer dollars? Shouldn't they face the consequences of their own bad decisions?

So you're saying that you are completely familiar with the composition of all of the investments made by your chosen banking institution and its subsidiaries and partners?

If so, I'm impressed.

[TomAiello 26]

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So you're saying that you are completely familiar with the composition of all of the investments made by your chosen banking institution and its subsidiaries and partners?

Nope. But I am saying that I'm aware there are risks there, and I've chosen not to more fully educate myself about them. And that means that I'm responsible for my own decision not to learn more, and ought to face any consequences of that decision.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I'm not seeing any innocent members of the "general public" here. Just a bunch of individuals who've made decisions that put them in a bad position. Why should they be rewarded with billions of taxpayer dollars? Shouldn't they face the consequences of their own bad decisions?

Again you throw in your comment about the billions of taxpayer dollars. You seem to be having a very hard time staying on topic.

If the financial institutions where you hold deposits and investments decided to close down, declare bankruptcy and keep your money, you would just say.....oh well, guess I better pick a better bank next time.

I also see you decided not to respond to the rest of my post. This libertarian dream you live in doesn't work in the real world, for the same reason pure communism and pure capitalism doesn't work; greed.

If you would let business operate without any government oversight, then there would be a fair number of business who would fill their pockets as quickly as possible and go back out of business, without any consideration for employees, customers, environment, health & safety, etc. This whole idea that every company is in it for long term survival and prosperity is a fallacy.

[TomAiello 26]

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If the financial institutions where you hold deposits and investments decided to close down, declare bankruptcy and keep your money, you would just say.....oh well, guess I better pick a better bank next time.

Yes.

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If you would let business operate without any government oversight, then there would be a fair number of business who would fill their pockets as quickly as possible and go back out of business...

I've got no problem with someone making a profit quickly and closing up shop.

Without delivering the product to their customers? That would be fraud, which I would have a problem with.

By damaging other (non-consenting) parties, for example with pollution? I think they should have to fix the damage.

Without paying their employees? They should have to honor their contracts. I'd want the courts to enforce them.


If you're a consenting party, it's ridiculous to claim that you were harmed unless there was real fraud involved. If we're not talking about fraud, then you should have done your due diligence, and you ought to face the consequences of your actions.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com