Pledge of Allegiance in New Mexico schools...

[masterrig 1]

I just heard on our local news, where the Secretary of Education in New Mexico wants to leave reciting the Pledge of Allegiance up to students. Students would have a choice as to whether or not, they wish to recite 'The Pledge.'
I'm just curious what those of you out there think of this idea. Personally, I'm not in favor. Simply because, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance shows patriotism to our country and pride in these United States.


Chuck

[quade 4]

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Simply because, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance shows patriotism to our country and pride in these United States.

So, what you're saying is that before the "Pledge" people weren't patriotic or unable to show it?

I'm also curious if you think during the revisions it became more or less patriotic?

I also find it fascinating that somehow people think pledging allegiance to a symbol of a country is somehow more patriotic than respecting the the Constitution which actually defines the country.

The students already have the right to not recite if they choose. That's guaranteed by the Constitution.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[masterrig 1]

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Simply because, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance shows patriotism to our country and pride in these United States.

So, what you're saying is that before the "Pledge" people weren't patriotic or unable to show it?

I'm also curious if you think during the revisions it became more or less patriotic?

I also find it fascinating that somehow people think pledging allegiance to a symbol of a country is somehow more patriotic than respecting the the Constitution which actually defines the country.

The students already have the right to not recite if they choose. That's guaranteed by the Constitution.

I re-read what I wrote and I'm having a hard time finding where I said that before the pledge that people were un-patriotic. You sure read an awful lot in what little I said. I just feel what I said. If, someone doesn't want to say the pledge, so be it. As you said, they have that right. The purpose of my post was to get 'opinions'.


Chuck

[quade 4]

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I re-read what I wrote and I'm having a hard time finding where I said that before the pledge that people were un-patriotic.

I never said you did. I was simply pointing out the fact that many of the greatest patriots this country ever had lived well before "The Pledge" was even conceived. There are many ways to be patriotic without having to put on a show.

Most elementary school children have no idea what they're even saying when they recite it. How is that being patriotic? It's not. It's simply reciting words by rote like a parrot.

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The purpose of my post was to get 'opinions'.

And that's why I gave you mine.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nerdgirl 0]

We weren't required to recite the Pledge beyond elementary school, as I recall. That was in a small town in the midwest more than 15 years ago.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[masterrig 1]

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I re-read what I wrote and I'm having a hard time finding where I said that before the pledge that people were un-patriotic.

I never said you did. I was simply pointing out the fact that many of the greatest patriots this country ever had lived well before "The Pledge" was even conceived. There are many ways to be patriotic without having to put on a show.

Most elementary school children have no idea what they're even saying when they recite it. How is that being patriotic? It's not. It's simply reciting words by rote like a parrot.

Quote

The purpose of my post was to get 'opinions'.

And that's why I gave you mine.

O.K. I understand and see your point. I appreciate it. Ya' really got me thinking, now!


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

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We weren't required to recite the Pledge beyond elementary school, as I recall. That was in a small town in the midwest more than 15 years ago.

/Marg

Quade brought-up a good point in regard to reciting the Pledge being just a rote process. Come to think about it, that's about the way it got for me in grade school. I didn't really think about what I was saying. I just joined-in. Hmmmmm...


Chuck

[kallend 2,027]

Being forced to recite a handful of words never made anyone a patriot.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Refusing to sure works the other way.

[rhaig 0]

I was never taught or discussed the meaning behind the words until Boy Scouts when I was in 6th grade. In 7th grade we discussed the pledge in my American History class. We dissected the phrases and analyzed the wording. In earlier grades we studied the revolution. Our school still had us saying the pledge through 8th grade.

I agree that only rote recital will have no effect on the patriotism of someone. Discussion of the pledge, the ideas behind it, appreciation of the acts involved in the forming of our country are all things that when combined would allow for an increase in patriotism.

I believe that choosing to say the pledge when not required to is a sign of patriotism IF the chooser understands the meaning behind the words.

--
Rob

[chuckakers 425]

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I just heard on our local news, where the Secretary of Education in New Mexico wants to leave reciting the Pledge of Allegiance up to students. Students would have a choice as to whether or not, they wish to recite 'The Pledge.'
I'm just curious what those of you out there think of this idea. Personally, I'm not in favor. Simply because, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance shows patriotism to our country and pride in these United States.


Chuck

Kids have always had that choice. I've never heard of a school that makes kids recite the pledge - especially in today's pc society.

Freedom works both ways. If a kid is being taught that he/she shouldn't take the pledge, so be it. Like it or not, that's what America is about. Patriotism is an option that comes with freedom, not a requirerent of it.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[justinb138 0]

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I also find it fascinating that somehow people think pledging allegiance to a symbol of a country is somehow more patriotic than respecting the the Constitution which actually defines the country.

The students already have the right to not recite if they choose. That's guaranteed by the Constitution.

I couldn't agree more.

Although, the irony of forcing people to recite the pledge is mildly entertaining.

[DanG 1]

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Refusing to sure works the other way.

So refusing to say the pledge makes you unpatriotic. Got it.

You like to make inferences to your service defending this country. What exactly about this country were you defending? When I served I liked to think I was defending the Constitution. Perhaps you thought otherwise?

- Dan G

[warpedskydiver 0]

The right to choose is one thing, outright refusal for some unknown reason can be the building blocks of being one of the USA bashers we see frequently.

We have enough educators already blaming our country for all the problems of the world, do we need more indoctrination in that venue?


If it is personal choice, do whatever you like but don't complain or sue if others do.

[warpedskydiver 0]

The constitution, the people and the men and women serving alongside me.

Was this some sort of a quiz?

[chasteh 0]

Were you also serving those persons, even alongside you, who thought otherwise about the conflicts you were involved in?

What about the civilians who live and are protected by the constitution you fought for? Are you saying that those who exercise specific rights within that constitution may not be considered worthy of your defense?

edit:

>If it is personal choice, do whatever you like but don't complain or sue if others do.

Ok. Are you complaining about others doing whatever they like then?

[warpedskydiver 0]

Here we go again, I did not care what they think or what they do, I did my job.


If I could not stand them, then I did not hang out with them.

If they were civilians, I could give a shit less what they think as long as they don't cause me a problem.

I was not deciding foreign affairs, national policy or anything else, I followed orders and did my job.

[chasteh 0]

>Here we go again

The point is that you are saying it is ok that people think what they want, and at the same time you are saying otherwise.

[warpedskydiver 0]

For all I know I was defending the right of two homosexual educators to polish each others knob after rough anal sex.

Who gives a shit?




Maybe I was defending someones right to be a hand wringing liberal fucktard.



Heck I was probably defending someones right to be a drug addict on welfare.

Or possibly defending someones right to go to church and not be murdered for it.

The only thing that mattered was the constitution and following LAWFUL orders.

[chasteh 0]

>Who gives a shit?

Well, this is an online forum dedicated to debating political issues, so pretty much everyone here does.

">We have enough educators already blaming our country for all the problems of the world, do we need more indoctrination in that venue?"

Actually, yes. It is quite important, just as it was when the U.S. constitution (that document you were defending - remember?) was being drafted.

>Maybe I was defending someones right to be a hand wringing liberal fucktard.

As much as you were defending the rights of bigoted persons.

>The only thing that mattered was the constitution and following LAWFUL orders.

Uh oh. For the purposes of limiting the number of rant wars I am currently involved in, I will leave this one for someone else.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Whatever, I am shaking in fear of what you think.

BTW Bigots can be liberals as well, they just lie about it better.

[chasteh 0]

Me too. Maybe we can discuss what bearing that has here sometime.

>BTW Bigots can be liberals as well, they just lie about it better.

Sure sure. Unfortunately, you just might be more suspicious of the "common sense"-based political perspectives out there and the bigotry that they endorse.

[warpedskydiver 0]

I really do not care what you think, if you give a shit what I think, you better find something better to do with your time.

[chasteh 0]

>if you give a shit what I think, you better find something better to do with your time

I woke up today thinking: you know what chasteh, lets find some crazy person on dz.com and then nitpick at one small thing that they said. This is that time.

You and I must know each other, as you seem confident in the consequences I will suffer were I to not find something better with my time.

[masterrig 1]

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I just heard on our local news, where the Secretary of Education in New Mexico wants to leave reciting the Pledge of Allegiance up to students. Students would have a choice as to whether or not, they wish to recite 'The Pledge.'
I'm just curious what those of you out there think of this idea. Personally, I'm not in favor. Simply because, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance shows patriotism to our country and pride in these United States.


Chuck

Kids have always had that choice. I've never heard of a school that makes kids recite the pledge - especially in today's pc society.

Freedom works both ways. If a kid is being taught that he/she shouldn't take the pledge, so be it. Like it or not, that's what America is about. Patriotism is an option that comes with freedom, not a requirerent of it.

I've been thinking about this as I read responses and I've realized that we started our school day reciting the pledge. Did we really understand what we were saying? Did we really 'feel' it? Probably not. I think we looked at it as something we 'had' to do. Why do it at all? It's probably a good thing to know as being a part of being a citizen but, why recite it every day? After a short time, it becomes redundant. My initial reaction when I first heard the news story was... WHAT? Possibly, I just made a 'knee-jerk' reaction. Maybe, it should'nt be recited at all. When is the right time to say the Pledge?


Chuck