JohnnyD 0 #51 July 29, 2009 1892 “I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.” 1892 to 1923 "I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." 1923 to 1924 "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." 1924 to 1954 "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." 1954 to Present "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #52 July 29, 2009 We dove under our desks when the sirens went off during the cold war. We used that fun experience as a segway to learning about the red scare, communism, and the changes to the pledge. I'm a bit surprised that someone hasn't tried to take the 'under God' part out of our Pledge!? Thanks to Ronald Reagan, kids today don't have to dive under their desks... unless, it's because of a 'drive-by'!Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #53 July 29, 2009 Quote I'm a bit surprised that someone hasn't tried to take the 'under God' part out of our Pledge!? Well, every couple of years somebody does bring it up. It's usually one of the 10% of people in the US that doesn't believe in god and thinks the phrase has no place in an official government "oath". Personally, I kind of think they're right. Quote Thanks to Ronald Reagan, kids today don't have to dive under their desks... unless, it's because of a 'drive-by'! I'm not certain Reagan is quite as responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union as some folks in the US make him out to be. I think a lot of it had to do with the amazing restraint Gorbachev showed in dealing with the fall of the wall. Contrast and compare that with how Tiananmen Square went down.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #54 July 29, 2009 Quote Quote I'm a bit surprised that someone hasn't tried to take the 'under God' part out of our Pledge!? Well, every couple of years somebody does bring it up. It's usually one of the 10% of people in the US that doesn't believe in god and thinks the phrase has no place in an official government "oath". Personally, I kind of think they're right. Quote Thanks to Ronald Reagan, kids today don't have to dive under their desks... unless, it's because of a 'drive-by'! I'm not certain Reagan is quite as responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union as some folks in the US make him out to be. I think a lot of it had to do with the amazing restraint Gorby showed in dealing with the fall of the fall. Contrast and compare that with how Tiananmen Square went down. Good point! As for the 'under God' part... if, I'm not mistaken, our nation, it's laws, constitution and etc., are based on Christianity. Probably some Masonic thinking thrown-in for good measure. I don't have a problem with God being mentioned. The way I see it, it's like anything else... one doesn't have to go along with it. What about the 'rights' for those who chose to recognise the 'under God' part? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #55 July 29, 2009 QuoteQuoteIt no longer matters if I think nationalistic pride in America is of any value. I think you're fooling yourself if you ever thought it did. Your comment made me so sad I had to go for a drive to collect my thoughts. No, I am not fooled or foolish because I believe in the American way. In my family all the males served our great country during war time. My grandfather volunteered for the US ARMY in 1916 to fight against Germany, his family heritage, because he believed in America. My father worked in a defense plant during WWII because it was right and good, for America. My uncles fought in both the European and the Pacific theater, volunteers, because the were dedicated to America and what we stood for in the world. I served in the volunteer military at the beginning of the Vietnam War when we were training special ops to go train the South Vietnamese because I believed America was the answer to communist aggression. During the 1960's skydivers were the most dedicated Americans in the country. Competition was focused on one purpose, the US TEAM must beat the CCCP TEAM at the World Meet. I hold lifetime memberships in the Vietnam Veterans of America, Combat Control Association and Air Commando Association. When I attend a veterans meeting I join in the Pledge of Allegiance and the prayer of invocation. Whenever I am out in public and hear the Star Spangled Banner I stand at attention, face the direction of the music and place my hand over my eart. When the U.S. Flag passes by me I stand at attention and now it is authorized to present the hand salute or place my hand over my heart. Maybe American nationalism means nothing to you but don't ever allow yourself to slip into the fantasy belief that it doesn't mean something to others. Ask some of your jumping buds in SEAL Team Six down at San Diego or the US MARINES at Camp Pendleton or Twenty-nine Palms about nationalism and what America means to them. Joseph Stalin predicted that America would fall like a ripe apple from the tree. I am deeply, deeply saddened by your statement, because it appears that you would like to see it happen. I sincerely hope I am mistaken in that regard.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #56 July 29, 2009 Quote Good point! As for the 'under God' part... if, I'm not mistaken, our nation, it's laws, constitution and etc., are based on Christianity. Probably some Masonic thinking thrown-in for good measure. I don't have a problem with God being mentioned. The way I see it, it's like anything else... one doesn't have to go along with it. What about the 'rights' for those who chose to recognise the 'under God' part? Chuck The pledge should be inclusive of all Americans, and you do not have to believe in a higher power to be an American, and if you do, you don't have to call it "god". The pledge leaves out those who would say "One Nation, indivisible" or "One Nation, under Yahweh" (or insert name of chosen deity). Christians are really the only ones who use the word "God", capital G. It's a proper name, just like Allah, Yahweh, Heavenly Father, or Jehovah, even though we don't always think of it that way. The pledge was altered specifically to differentiate religious America from non-religious Russia, and by doing so, it leaves out a good chunk of Americans, which is fundamentally wrong, given the first amendment that the federal government isn't supposed to respect ANY religion. Your rights aren't being stepped on, because you can still exercise your faith freely, but the name of your deity doesn't belong in an oath of allegiance to our country, because people who follow a different faith can love America just as much. Looking at the writings of our founding fathers, I think you are probably mistaken with regards to Christian origins of the USA. [N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1779), quoted from Merrill D Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings (1984), p. 347 I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance, or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others. - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Dowse, April 19, 1803 Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries. - Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808). This is his second use of the term "wall of separation," here quoting his own use in the Danbury Baptist letter. This wording was several times upheld by the Supreme Court as an accurate description of the Establishment Clause: Reynolds (98 US at 164, 1879); Everson (330 US at 59, 1947); McCollum (333 US at 232, 1948)" As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. -Treaty of Tripoli, John Adams, 1796 between the US and Tripoli, sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history.” John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America “..and farther, that my indiscrete disputations about religion began to make me pointed at with horror by good people as an infidel or atheist.” -Benjamin Franklin Autobiography, Chapter 2 “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize..” -- James Madison, in a letter to William Bradford, April 1,1774 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #57 July 29, 2009 QuoteLooking at the writings of our founding fathers, I think you are probably mistaken with regards to Christian origins of the USA. It's just another one of the great myths told about the country. This bit of indoctrination usually come sometime around Thanksgiving. If anything, the country was mostly founded for profit motives.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #58 July 29, 2009 Quote Quote How many of you said "invisible" instead of indivisible when you were really little? I just mumbled through 'indivisible' till one day I got it right and really blurted it out. The whole class looked at me like 'what the heck'. I turned down the volume after that. You just had to remind me of that!Chuck I think I said indivisidable til I was in second grade.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #59 July 29, 2009 "nationalism" I do not think that means what you think it means. The word has carried with it for at least half a century some rather unsavory connotations.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #60 July 29, 2009 Thank you! You really went all-out and I appreciate it. I understand much better, now. I just wanted to add... In grade and high school and even in some of my college classes, we were told that the founding fathers, had a real struggle getting things set-up for our country. They saw the necessity for keeping church and state separate yet, they based laws on the ten commandments and etc. We were told too that the founding fathers did not want anyone to get the idea that this was some kind of religous settlement but rather, a place where all could, if they chose, practice their religous beliefs without penalty or persecution. On the other hand, people didn't have to believe in a supreme being if, they didn't want to. Since then, I've learned of a 'strong' Masonic influence due to the fact that many of the founding fathers were Free Masons. Some of those influences show-up on our currency as well as the lay-out of our nations capitol. Pretty interesting stuff. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #61 July 29, 2009 Quote Quote Quote How many of you said "invisible" instead of indivisible when you were really little? I just mumbled through 'indivisible' till one day I got it right and really blurted it out. The whole class looked at me like 'what the heck'. I turned down the volume after that. You just had to remind me of that!Chuck I think I said indivisidable til I was in second grade. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #62 July 30, 2009 QuoteIt was just about the time that 'one nation under God' was added that we started to recite the pledge. A couple years later, Russia invaded Hungary and the threat of 'atomic war' was quite real. We'd have 'air raid drills' and have to crawl under our desks. I have no idea how many times I banged my head on that desk! I hated those drills!Laugh Duck and Cover! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixy5FBLnh7o "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #63 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteLooking at the writings of our founding fathers, I think you are probably mistaken with regards to Christian origins of the USA. It's just another one of the great myths told about the country. This bit of indoctrination usually come sometime around Thanksgiving. If anything, the country was mostly founded for profit motives. Yes, of course... the Puritans just wanted to get that sweet land deal from the Indians.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #64 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteLooking at the writings of our founding fathers, I think you are probably mistaken with regards to Christian origins of the USA. It's just another one of the great myths told about the country. This bit of indoctrination usually come sometime around Thanksgiving. If anything, the country was mostly founded for profit motives. Weren't the first settlers in this country persecuted back in their 'native' country for religious beliefs? As for the 'profit' part... I don't think they had any idea what they were in for. They were on the run. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #65 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteLooking at the writings of our founding fathers, I think you are probably mistaken with regards to Christian origins of the USA. It's just another one of the great myths told about the country. This bit of indoctrination usually come sometime around Thanksgiving. If anything, the country was mostly founded for profit motives. Weren't the first settlers in this country persecuted back in their 'native' country for religious beliefs? Chuck No, they were persecuted for trying to impose their puritanical beliefs on everyone else, and everyone else got pissed off with them.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #66 July 30, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Looking at the writings of our founding fathers, I think you are probably mistaken with regards to Christian origins of the USA. It's just another one of the great myths told about the country. This bit of indoctrination usually come sometime around Thanksgiving. If anything, the country was mostly founded for profit motives. Yes, of course... the Puritans just wanted to get that sweet land deal from the Indians. Did someone re-write our history books while we slept?Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #67 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLooking at the writings of our founding fathers, I think you are probably mistaken with regards to Christian origins of the USA. It's just another one of the great myths told about the country. This bit of indoctrination usually come sometime around Thanksgiving. If anything, the country was mostly founded for profit motives. Weren't the first settlers in this country persecuted back in their 'native' country for religious beliefs? Chuck No, they were persecuted for trying to impose their puritanical beliefs on everyone else, and everyone else got pissed off with them. Right! Wouldn't that come under 'beliefs'... they believed they had to spread the 'word' to all others? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #68 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLooking at the writings of our founding fathers, I think you are probably mistaken with regards to Christian origins of the USA. It's just another one of the great myths told about the country. This bit of indoctrination usually come sometime around Thanksgiving. If anything, the country was mostly founded for profit motives. Weren't the first settlers in this country persecuted back in their 'native' country for religious beliefs? No, they were persecuted for trying to impose their puritanical beliefs on everyone else, and everyone else got pissed off with them. Right! The lesson being, of course, that history is what the author of the history book says it is. For example, the First Battle of Bull Run was fought in the Civil War. The First Battle of Manassas was fought in the War of Northern Aggression. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #69 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteLooking at the writings of our founding fathers, I think you are probably mistaken with regards to Christian origins of the USA. It's just another one of the great myths told about the country. This bit of indoctrination usually come sometime around Thanksgiving. If anything, the country was mostly founded for profit motives. Weren't the first settlers in this country persecuted back in their 'native' country for religious beliefs? No. Absolutely not! You are thinking of a very small group of people and an event that happened in 1621 which happened well after the continent had been "discovered" in 1492 by a guy looking for a way to get to India faster so that Spain could make more money. You also need to look up the history of Sir Walter Raleigh in 1584 and the Virginia Company, the Plymouth Company and the London Company which set up a number of (failed) colonies prior to Jamestown which was settled in 1607 and the Popham Colony by people that very specifically came to the continent looking for gold, spices and furs. They moved into tobacco, pine tar and slavery. This was and always will be a country "for profit." While some religious folks came along for the ride, that absolutely was not the reason the vast majority came to these shores.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #70 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteLooking at the writings of our founding fathers, I think you are probably mistaken with regards to Christian origins of the USA. It's just another one of the great myths told about the country. This bit of indoctrination usually come sometime around Thanksgiving. Coincidently... George Washington City of New York, October 3, 1789 Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor, and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness." Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be. That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks, for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation, for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his providence, which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war, for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed, for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted, for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us. And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions, to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually, to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed, to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shown kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord. To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and Us, and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best. Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789. Go: Washington http://www.pbs.org/georgewashington/milestones/thanksgiving_read.htmlwww.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #71 July 30, 2009 See post above yours.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #72 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLooking at the writings of our founding fathers, I think you are probably mistaken with regards to Christian origins of the USA. It's just another one of the great myths told about the country. This bit of indoctrination usually come sometime around Thanksgiving. If anything, the country was mostly founded for profit motives. Weren't the first settlers in this country persecuted back in their 'native' country for religious beliefs? No, they were persecuted for trying to impose their puritanical beliefs on everyone else, and everyone else got pissed off with them. Right! The lesson being, of course, that history is what the author of the history book says it is. For example, the First Battle of Bull Run was fought in the Civil War. The First Battle of Manassas was fought in the War of Northern Aggression. I get it... the old 'word' game! Sheeeesh! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #73 July 30, 2009 No. It's not a word game at all. It's a fact of what their motivations where. Scroll back a few posts.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #74 July 30, 2009 I'm not saying anything you said is wrong. Just found it interesting, in light of what you and Nightingale said, George Washington instituted Thanksgiving as a national holiday for thanking God.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #75 July 30, 2009 I see... I haven't read about all this in years. I'm getting a re-fresher course in our history.Also, the Queen hocked (pawned) the crown jewels to finance Chris' trip. I learned that on 'Pawn Stars'!Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
