Or, is is because the down side makes them look stupid?

[kelpdiver 2]

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The administration is reviewing the AP's request for detailed records, deputy White House press secretary Jennifer Psaki said. The administration already has released summary information from the detailed sales records, including the number of rebates requested, fuel efficiency information, vehicle sales information and amount of rebates requested in each state, she said.

summary information doesn't really cut it. You can only take it at face value. I hope it is accurate, and that they're not bullshitting us.

As for registering old cars - until this year's budget fun, the cost to register (for use) my 11 yo car is about $60. Registering it for no operation is just barely cheaper.

[rushmc 23]

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I think a good case can be made that we DO need to get gas guzzlers off the road, we DO need to reduce emission of pollutants, we DO need our transportation system in good shape...

I agree. But so far, I haven't heard a good rebuttal to the concern that the supply of affordable older, used cars (and their parts) will tighten, to the detriment of lower-income people.

It's fascinating to see how the righties have suddenly developed this concern for low income people, after decades of indifference or hostility.

They never stopped sir. You would rather just give things away. The option is the help them be better. In the end, if it were you (which one I dont care) which way would you feel better?

Oh, and I dont expect a direct answer.....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Ron 10]

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If you're driving and old Explorer over 100k miles, how long do you think its going to be before you're going to have to pay cash for a different POS car when your current POS car dies?

Depends on my factors such as use and MX. I know folks with beaters that have 200k+ on them no problem.

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I see this as a great chance for people to get reliable transportation at a good price instead of throwing good money after bad at POS cars.

I had a car die on me once.... I paid 600 dollars cash for another car and drove it 60k miles before I paid cash (2,500) for another used car that I drove for another 50k miles.

Paying cash for another good condition used car is MUCH better than going into debt to buy a new car.

Of course this program requires the old cars to be destroyed... Which will raise the cost of old used cars since it will reduce supply.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I would like to see your data on the debt incurred by poor people in this program

Been living under a rock?

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http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080720/NEWS01/807200404/1002/NEWS01

Today, Americans carry $2.56 trillion in consumer debt, up 22 percent since 2000 alone, according to the Federal Reserve Board. The average household’s credit card debt is $8,565, up almost 15 percent from 2000.

College debt has more than doubled since 1995. The average student emerges from college carrying $20,000 in educational debt.

Household debt, including mortgages and credit cards, represents 19 percent of household assets, according to the Fed, compared with 13 percent in 1980.

Even as this debt was mounting, incomes stagnated for many Americans. As a result, the percentage of disposable income that consumers must set aside to service their debt — a figure that includes monthly credit card payments, car loans, mortgage interest and principal — has risen to 14.5 percent from 11 percent just 15 years ago.

By contrast, the nation’s savings rate, which exceeded 8 percent of disposable income in 1968, stood at 0.4 percent at the end of the first quarter of this year, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.

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http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/debt/20050117a1.asp

Gen Xers yearn to carve a new direction for society. Unfortunately, the direction appears to be straight into debt. Americans between the ages of 25 and 34 now boast the second-highest rate of bankruptcy, just behind the 35-44 group. The average credit card debt for this group increased by 55 percent between 1992 and 2001, with the average young adult household now spending approximately 24 percent of its income on debt payments.

* Adults between the ages of 18 and 24 saw an even sharper rise in credit card debt from 1992 to 2001 -- 104 percent to be precise.

* Among the youngest adult households with incomes below $50,000 (that's two-thirds of this demographic), nearly one in seven with credit card debt is in debt hardship.

* This youngest segment spends close to 30 percent of its income on debt payments, double the percentage spent on average in 1992.

I guess people like you like these programs that put more people dependent on handouts. I'd rather people be self sufficient and economically responsible instead of chasing the shiny new toy just because they got a great deal.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[idrankwhat 0]

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I guess people like you like these programs that put more people dependent on handouts. I'd rather people be self sufficient and economically responsible instead of chasing the shiny new toy just because they got a great deal.

To be fair, you didn't answer Kallend's question. THIS program is not responsible for our nation's debt habit. It's a continuation of that habit and an effort to help dig out from the recession. Again I'll ask, what is the best way to recover from an economic recession when over 70% of our economy depends on consumer spending. Get people spending again? That seems to be the plan. What this plan does, which I think is good, is it gets people spending on durable goods that are mostly made and maintained in the United States. It's not like we're giving a tax credit to shop at WalMart where 80% of the crap is shipped from China. (It also lowers fuel demand which, in turn, lowers the weekly fuel and food costs)

But to address your concerns about debt in this country, I agree completely. But when we're analyzing the statistics regarding household credit liability and bankruptcies, don't forget to see how many of those items you listed are related. The cost of higher education has outstripped inflation by over 300% since the mid 80's. Within the next decade we'll be paying well over $100,000 for an undergrad education. Health care costs have had a similar rise. They are now rising at over twice the rate of inflation and are forecast to continue to with the same trend over the next few years to 20% of GDP by 2017. Half of all bankruptcy filings are related to health care debt and those filings are increasing at a rate of one every 30 seconds.

So what's the fix? Do we find a way to contain runaway costs that are bankrupting the country or do we let the poor and now middle class watch as education and affordable health care become the luxury of the wealthy. And let's not forget how dedicated this thread is to the well being of the poorest in our society.

[kallend 2,027]

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I would like to see your data on the debt incurred by poor people in this program

Been living under a rock?

.

What part of "IN THIS PROGRAM" do you not comprehend?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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The administration is reviewing the AP's request for detailed records, deputy White House press secretary Jennifer Psaki said. The administration already has released summary information from the detailed sales records, including the number of rebates requested, fuel efficiency information, vehicle sales information and amount of rebates requested in each state, she said.

summary information doesn't really cut it. You can only take it at face value. I hope it is accurate, and that they're not bullshitting us.

As for registering old cars - until this year's budget fun, the cost to register (for use) my 11 yo car is about $60. Registering it for no operation is just barely cheaper.

So until the details of EVERY transaction are released you won't believe the numbers. I hope you have fun analyzing them for accuracy.

And you forgot the INSURANCE requirement too.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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What part of "IN THIS PROGRAM" do you not comprehend?

What part of "THIS PROGRAM GETS PEOPLE TO INCUR MORE DEBT" do you not understand?

I got it... you only want to LOOK like you are helping them... Not actually help anyone.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnnyD 0]

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What part of "IN THIS PROGRAM" do you not comprehend?

What part of "THIS PROGRAM GETS PEOPLE TO INCUR MORE DEBT" do you not understand?

I got it... you only want to LOOK like you are helping them... Not actually help anyone.

There is just no amount of evidence that will convince some people. I'm not sure why you are projecting your very narrow set of circumstances on the American public, but I guess you are the epicenter of your universe.

Here's another bonus to this plan that no one has brought up yet:

You take your POS 1996 Explorer with over 100k miles on its last leg in and trade it for a Prius or the Honda version (not sure what that one is called) or an Escape Hybrid. Guess what - in addition to the 4,500 dollar C4C there is also a tax credit for purchasing a qualified hybrid vehicle.

This plan isn't perfect - not by a long shot, but I can't remember a gov't plan that made me say: That is really helping some people out.

[Ron 10]

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To be fair, you didn't answer Kallend's question. THIS program is not responsible for our nation's debt habit.

Yes, this program is encouraging taking older cars and trading them in for new cars and new car payments.... that is EXACTLY the problem our Country has with debt. While this program may not have created the problem, it does encourage it to continue.

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It's a continuation of that habit and an effort to help dig out from the recession.

You can't spend your way out a recession by spending money you don't have. Those bills come due and they have to get paid at some point. The housing bust should serve as a glowing example that you can't go into debt to buy a depreciating asset and think that is a wise move in the long haul.

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Again I'll ask, what is the best way to recover from an economic recession when over 70% of our economy depends on consumer spending. Get people spending again?

YES, but not by getting them to go deeper into debt. Are you advocating that each one of us go get a new credit card and run up 20-30k in new purchases to save the economy?

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But to address your concerns about debt in this country, I agree completely. But when we're analyzing the statistics regarding household credit liability and bankruptcies, don't forget to see how many of those items you listed are related.

YES, but one of the major factors is people buying crap they don't NEED. And it gets worse when they buy that crap they can't afford on credit.

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So what's the fix?

THE fix? Or the fix that makes people happy and is easy to sell, but might not work? They are not the same.

The fix is to get people to become financially responsible. To save and not buy crap they don't need to try and be happy. To teach people that toys do not make you happy (they can help). But if you struggle to pay for your toys, then they bring more pain than pleasure.

We see this ALL the time in skydiving. A person who is broke gets a credit card to learn and then buy new gear... they soon find out that they can't afford to jump as much as they would like. They enjoy the DZ, but get stressed every time they look at their credit card statements.

The fix that makes people happy and that does not really work is what this program is about. It is like Marie Antoinette declaring "Let them eat cake!" So we take people in debt, and let them go MORE into debt just so they can feel a little better. Never mind the longer term effects. It is putting a bandaid on the symptom, not fixing the illness.

And never mind that the program is going to reduce the supply of good used cars, increase the cost of used parts, increase the buyers debt load, increase insurance payments, and only have a short term boost in auto sales.

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Do we find a way to contain runaway costs that are bankrupting the country or do we let the poor and now middle class watch as education and affordable health care become the luxury of the wealthy.

By all means, find a way... but find away that does more than provide a quick one time high feeling...All the while deepening the overall situation.

You want to help the poor? STOP giving them reasons to go deeper into debt! Find a way to help them get low cost, good quality USED cars that can be paid off in a hurry. I have bought several cars (5) for less than 3k and drove each of them for 50k+ miles (or sold them for more than I paid for them). Heck, one I bought for 600 bucks, drove for 50k miles and sold for 500 bucks! I have a paid for 06 Mustang GT with 60k miles on it AND 11k in a fund to pay cash for my next car. THAT'S how you get out of being poor, not by buying a new car and going deeper in debt each time.

Instead, this program encourages the destruction of the very cars that would be PERFECT for a poorer driver! It encourages them to go DEEPER IN DEBT!!!!

Don't get me wrong, if you could pay cash for the new car this would be a GREAT deal. But increasing a poor person debt load is NOT how you help them get out of debt and stop being poor.

The solution to helping the poor is not just handing them money, or encouraging them to go deeper in debt.

How about we spend some time doing a better job of teaching personal finance in elementary school and HS? Teach the dangers of debt and give them some tools to avoid it?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[idrankwhat 0]

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I got it... you only want to LOOK like you are helping them... Not actually help anyone.

And which will help people more, lower education, gas, health care, and food prices or a slightly higher availability of spare parts for older vehicles?

You bring up quite a few very good arguments for changing the basis of our economic engine. IMO, our country would be better off if we quit building it upon consumption of a foreign sources of energy, legal drug consumption and excessive borrowing. However I would not hold up this small, temporary, successful in many respects, stimulus program as the poster child for what is wrong with America (especially considering that it's what helped build it) or for an attack on the poor.

[Ron 10]

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There is just no amount of evidence that will convince some people.

And YOU are ignoring evidence about the long term effects. YOU are ignoring the evidence that it is not doing as much for the economy since it requires going deeper in debt.

YOU are ignoring that it is not helping the climate as much since the new cars had to be made, the old cars have to be destroyed, and the trash from the parts that cannot be reused have to be buried somewhere.

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I'm not sure why you are projecting your very narrow set of circumstances on the American public, but I guess you are the epicenter of your universe.

I'm not sure why *you* are projecting your very narrow set of circumstances on the American public, but I guess you are the epicenter of your universe.

I have ZERO debt... Not a single dime. I drive a 2006 Mustang GT that is paid for, have another 11 k set aside to by my next car already, and just sold my house and made 17k. It is not MY circumstances.... Maybe yours. Maybe you like driving a new car and being in debt and think debt is normal and healthy.

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You take your POS 1996 Explorer with over 100k miles on its last leg in and trade it for a Prius or the Honda version (not sure what that one is called) or an Escape Hybrid. Guess what - in addition to the 4,500 dollar C4C there is also a tax credit for purchasing a qualified hybrid vehicle.

OR, you could buy a nice lower mileage used car for a few grand and not go into debt at all. But this program is getting rid of those and due to that the prices for those will go up... Making it harder for people who are trying to avoid debt to accomplish that goal.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnnyD 0]

Wow. Your concern with our nation's debt is commendable, but focusing on this plan is like getting a cup of water out of the ocean and thinking it makes a difference.

This program isn't about increasing debt. It's about putting reliable transportation within the reach of people who may not otherwise have been able to afford it. If you are a cash only guy, great for you. The reality is that most people don't have the cash laying around to just go and buy a car outright. If they do and something happens to the car, they are screwed because they don't have the cash laying around to fix it or buy another car. I know you've been lucky with cars, but a lot of people aren't. The people taking advantage of the C4C program would have financed a vehicle anyway. With the program, they can afford a quality new fuel efficient vehicle - with a warranty.

[Ron 10]

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And which will help people more, lower education, gas, health care, and food prices or a slightly higher availability of spare parts for older vehicles?

THIS program will not lower education, healthcare, gas or food prices. It WILL make it harder for financially responsible people to find cheep used cars and parts.

This program WILL increase the debt load of many people and that additional debt will leave less money for education, healthcare, gas or food.

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However I would not hold up this small, temporary, successful in many respects, stimulus program as the poster child for what is wrong with America (especially considering that it's what helped build it) or for an attack on the poor.

You can't think that it is a good idea for poor people to go deeper in debt and to increase the cost of good used cars?

Are you advocating that each one of us go get a new credit card and run up 20-30k in new purchases to save the economy?

If not then what is really the difference?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[idrankwhat 0]

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YES, but not by getting them to go deeper into debt. Are you advocating that each one of us go get a new credit card and run up 20-30k in new purchases to save the economy?

No, not everyone. Only those who are in the financial position to be able to afford it.

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THE fix? Or the fix that makes people happy and is easy to sell, but might not work? They are not the same.

I agree, and I'm sure this applies to a whole host of issues.

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The fix is to get people to become financially responsible. To save and not buy crap they don't need to try and be happy.

Again, I agree. But if everyone did precisely that, right now, our economy would collapse. We need to develop some sort of plan for a slow transition to a production based economy. That's going to be hard to do when the lobbyists who have our legislators by the short hairs complain that any plan that hurts their next quarterly report to the shareholders is unacceptable.

[idrankwhat 0]

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THIS program will not lower education, healthcare, gas or food prices.

Absolutely right! Which is why those who are concerned about helping the poor would do better to discuss how to address those issues than to hold up this program as their downfall. Besides, doing what we can to lower fuel prices will help people more than the availability of old parts. I'm willing to bet that most people are enjoying at least a $25-$50/wk savings on their gasoline bills as compared to a year ago.


edited to add: unfortunately, lower fuel prices will delay our transition off of fossil fuels so......damn. There's always a down side.

[kallend 2,027]

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What part of "IN THIS PROGRAM" do you not comprehend?

What part of "THIS PROGRAM GETS PEOPLE TO INCUR MORE DEBT" do you not understand?

I got it... you only want to LOOK like you are helping them... Not actually help anyone.

So you do not have any evidence to back up your claim. OK.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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Wow. Your concern with our nation's debt is commendable, but focusing on this plan is like getting a cup of water out of the ocean and thinking it makes a difference.

"No single drop or rain wants to be held responsible for the flood".

Wealth is about attitude, not income. I know people that make 2X what I make and have less. to quote Buffett (Jimmy, not Warren), "I made enough money to buy Miami, but I pissed it away as fast".

You want to help people? Give them the tools to help themselves live a responsible life and don't give them the temptation to go deeper in debt to try and feel good.

I ALMOST bought a 2006 Corvette instead of my Mustang. It was 60k vs 25k. I could have afforded either, but would have not been able to pay off my car as fast. Would having the Corvette made me 30k+ happier? How about when that kid ran into the back of my car? When I got the big door ding?

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This program isn't about increasing debt. It's about putting reliable transportation within the reach of people who may not otherwise have been able to afford it.

Affordable transportation is EXACTLY what a good number of these cars were. Paid for is about as affordable as you can get.

If you buy a 15k car with a factory 2k rebate and get the 4500 dollar CFC rebate. Then you take out a loan on the 8500 at 6% for 60 mths... you get a 160ish car payment each mth. PLUS, you have to carry full coverage insurance.

So, what kind of gas savings will offset an additional 160/mth? What could you do with an additional 160/mth?

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The reality is that most people don't have the cash laying around to just go and buy a car outright.

And the reason is because they have not been financially responsible. The answer to that is not having them go deeper in debt for a new car.

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If they do and something happens to the car, they are screwed because they don't have the cash laying around to fix it or buy another car.

Nonsense. If they have a good used car, they have 160/mth to save for when that car breaks down.

If you save 160/mth each year you put aside 1920.00 dollars. Heck, I have bought 3 cars I drove for a few years each for 2500.00.

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I know you've been lucky with cars, but a lot of people aren't.

I would not say I have been lucky.... I worked through the issues. I have had cars break, I have had cars die on me... Not luck, pre planning.

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The people taking advantage of the C4C program would have financed a vehicle anyway.

Nope... they would have continued to drive the car they had without payments. Otherwise car sales would not have spiked so much.

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With the program, they can afford a quality new fuel efficient vehicle - with a warranty.

They would be much better off with the additional 160/mth in their pockets. The economy would be much better off if they didn't go deeper into debt. They could then spend that money in other areas, not on finance charges.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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So you do not have any evidence to back up your claim. OK.

Neither do you. But you get to feel good about doing something... Even if it hurts more than it really helps. I guess that is all that matters to you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[timmyfitz 0]

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Oh, I wonder where Consumer Reports got their numbers. (along with dozens of other sources).

From your link:

"The average mpg of clunkers traded in was 15.8 mpg, while the average new model purchased got 25.4 mpg, according to the Detroit News."

I guess Consumer Reports got their numbers from the Detroit news. Not sure where the Detroit news got their numbers.

[JohnnyD 0]

Ron - I totally understand what you are saying, but if you think you can just wave your magic wand and the American public as a whole is going to become as financially responsible as you are, you're completely unrealistic.

[Ron 10]

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No, not everyone. Only those who are in the financial position to be able to afford it.

Then why encourage people who can't really afford a new car to buy one? How is this better?

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Again, I agree. But if everyone did precisely that, right now, our economy would collapse.

It would not collapse, it would just have a slower more healthy recovery. Pumping it up artificially will have a drawback later... Just look at the desire to have everyone own a home and how that crashed.

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We need to develop some sort of plan for a slow transition to a production based economy.

Part of that is to accept that we will never have the manufacturing base we used to have. Americans are not willing to pay the higher costs that it would take to make products over here.... The big three should be proof of that.

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That's going to be hard to do when the lobbyists who have our legislators by the short hairs complain that any plan that hurts their next quarterly report to the shareholders is unacceptable.

True, but many keep saying that THIS plan will save the US auto industry.... That's just BS.

There is no "quick" fix.

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Absolutely right! Which is why those who are concerned about helping the poor would do better to discuss how to address those issues than to hold up this program as their downfall.

This program is a glaring example of a bad program. It increases their debt, increases the nations debt, does not really deliver long term healthy outcomes, and is being rushed without looking at the drawbacks. It is being sold as a great idea and people are getting behind it to feel good about doing something.... But they are not looking at the longer term issues.

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Besides, doing what we can to lower fuel prices will help people more than the availability of old parts.

Cutting demand for Gas will only cause the oil industry to lower output to keep demand high. AND cutting gas consumption will only cause a reduction in revenue from the taxes on each gallon... We have seen this already. So the Govt will just have to raise the revenue by raising the tax on each gallon.

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I'm willing to bet that most people are enjoying at least a $25-$50/wk savings on their gasoline bills as compared to a year ago.

And how much of a gas savings will be needed to offset 160/mth car payment?

160 is 61 gallons of gas where I live, or 1100 miles on an 18MPG car.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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So you do not have any evidence to back up your claim. OK.

Neither do you.

I didn't make the claim, you did. I asked for your evidence - WHICH APPARENTLY YOU DON'T HAVE.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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Ron - I totally understand what you are saying, but if you think you can just wave your magic wand and the American public as a whole is going to become as financially responsible as you are, you're completely unrealistic.

I never once mentioned a magic wand.

Johnny - If you think that the answer to helping the poor is to get them more in debt and increase their debt to income ratio... they you are being completely unrealistic.

If you think that some Govt program that encourages them to go into debt is a solution to really help the poor and elevate them from poverty ... they you are living in a fantasy world.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnnyD 0]

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Ron - I totally understand what you are saying, but if you think you can just wave your magic wand and the American public as a whole is going to become as financially responsible as you are, you're completely unrealistic.

I never once mentioned a magic wand.

Johnny - If you think that the answer to helping the poor is to get them more in debt and increase their debt to income ratio... they you are being completely unrealistic.

If you think that some Govt program that encourages them to go into debt is a solution to really help the poor and elevate them from poverty ... they you are living in a fantasy world.

I ...... forget it.