OBAMA: 'I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess'...

[billvon 2,998]

>since when is freedom of choice a crime?

It's not, and again, the statement that "not having insurance is a crime" is a lie.

>penalties are punishment for crimes

So everyone in the US who buys milk is a criminal? Are you even listening to yourself, or are you just cut-and-pasting the latest GOP talking points?

>so what now every time i dont buy what Obama wants me to buy i will
>have to pay a fine . . .

Sort of like how all us non-parents have to "pay a fine." Yet somehow you overlook that fact! Odd.

Anyone keeping track of the number of lies here? I've lost count.

[azdiver 0]

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>since when is freedom of choice a crime?

It's not, and again, the statement that "not having insurance is a crime" is a lie.

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they want to tax people for not having something that should be optional

>penalties are punishment for crimes

So everyone in the US who buys milk is a criminal? Are you even listening to yourself, or are you just cut-and-pasting the latest GOP talking points?wtf, are you listening to yourself cause your not making sense to me

>so what now every time i dont buy what Obama wants me to buy i will
>have to pay a fine . . .

Sort of like how all us non-parents have to "pay a fine." Yet somehow you overlook that fact! Odd.

Anyone keeping track of the number of lies here? I've lost count.

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your writing them, so shouldn't be to hard, take off your shoes if needed

its in the bill, Bill, or can you just not be bothered to read anything thats not a dem talking gop bashing point
here look it up SEC. 401. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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[sundevil777 102]

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>It assumes that any proposal is trying to solve a real problem, and that
>everyone should be in agreement to what the problems are.

No, it assumes that we do have problems, and that there are solutions. I am all for people who want to solve them. If people don't like the solution and have a better one, then by all means, suggest a better one. Trying to lie, distract and deceive people about both the problems and the potential solutions is not a good angle to take, and such people would be better advised to get out of the way instead of continuing down their politically-motivated, destructive path.

Why isn't it possible that not changing anything is better than a proposal another would enact. That isn't even the current state of the opposition, but still is a valid position to take. To tell those taking that position they should get out of the way is really crappy. Dissent was said by libs to be the highest form of patriotism, or something like that - but of course things don't work in both directions for libs.

Obama is making a completely bold faced lie! (and sent out his officials to lie on his behalf) He has said many times, including very recently) that he is a proponent of a single payer system, just that it won't be possible right away. He now claims that is not his intention. That is just the beginning of the lies. Why can't you bring yourself to criticize Obama? Even if you do support his real, often clearly stated intentions - he should be pursuing his goals honestly instead of doing it in this manner.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Ron 10]

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Can't find anything, eh?

Sure, there are plenty.

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The only conclusion a reasonable person can draw is that you're thrashing about trying to get traction where there's none to be had.

Or that I have busted you YET AGAIN holding a double standard. When you make wild accusations against Bush it was logical... When someone else makes an accusation against Obama, they should be wearing a tinfoil hat.

Doc, you pretty much hold the record for double standards.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,998]

>Why isn't it possible that not changing anything is better than a
>proposal another would enact.

Because that is equivalent to saying "we have no problems that need to be solved." And that's pretty clearly wrong.

If your point is "it's the wrong solution, we should be looking at X" - then great. List the reasons that X is a better solution and people will look at it. Screaming that "OBAMA IS AN ILLEGAL ALIEN BALD FACED LIAR WHO WANTS TO KILL KIDS!" won't get you many people listening (although it will get you attention.)

>He has said many times, including very
>recently) that he is a proponent of a single payer system, just that it
>won't be possible right away.

Right.

>He now claims that is not his intention.

Right. He likes the single payer system but is not proposing it in this bill. Sorta like how a politician might like the idea of prayer in schools but not propose it in his latest education bill. That's not a lie, that's a difference between a politician's belief and what he is trying to enact into law.

>Why can't you bring yourself to criticize Obama?

?? His decision to not include tort reform was a stupid one. We need tort reform, and if it were included in this bill it would be a big step forward.

A reluctance to scream "FUCK THAT LYING SACK OF SHIT!" is not equivalent to "not criticizing him."

[kallend 2,027]

Can't find anything, eh?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[downwardspiral 0]

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Screaming that "OBAMA IS AN ILLEGAL ALIEN BALD FACED LIAR WHO WANTS TO KILL KIDS!" won't get you many people listening (although it will get you attention.)

You've been doing quite a bit of mocking of those who oppose Obama lately. I'd venture to guess you are receiving similar results as those you mock.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[kallend 2,027]

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Screaming that "OBAMA IS AN ILLEGAL ALIEN BALD FACED LIAR WHO WANTS TO KILL KIDS!" won't get you many people listening (although it will get you attention.)

Going by the nutjobs repeating this stuff just in this forum, I reckon you're mistaken.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,998]

>You've been doing quite a bit of mocking of those who oppose Obama lately.

?? There are posters here who claim that he is not a legal citizen. There's an entire thread on the subject. There are those who claim that he will, in fact, institute a "death board." They've used the term "bald faced liar."

Mockery it may be, but all that is coming from the right wingers with the conspiracy theories.

[sundevil777 102]

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>Why isn't it possible that not changing anything is better than a
>proposal another would enact.

Because that is equivalent to saying "we have no problems that need to be solved." And that's pretty clearly wrong.

No, it is not equivalent. They are very different. I am certain you can see the difference, you must just not want to admit it. Anyway, it isn't what conservatives are doing anyway.

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Screaming that "OBAMA IS AN ILLEGAL ALIEN BALD FACED LIAR WHO WANTS TO KILL KIDS!" won't get you many people listening (although it will get you attention.)

No, yelling about kids being killed was what libs were saying about conservatives many years ago. Don't you remember?

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>He has said many times, including very
>recently) that he is a proponent of a single payer system, just that it
>won't be possible right away.

Right.

>He now claims that is not his intention.

Right. He likes the single payer system but is not proposing it in this bill. Sorta like how a politician might like the idea of prayer in schools but not propose it in his latest education bill. That's not a lie, that's a difference between a politician's belief and what he is trying to enact into law.

I never said that was explicitly in the bill. It would be the likely result if enacted. Obama admitted that it wouldn't be possible to get a single payer system right away, it would take a while to get there. He is a huge liar.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[downwardspiral 0]

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>You've been doing quite a bit of mocking of those who oppose Obama lately.

?? There are posters here who claim that he is not a legal citizen. There's an entire thread on the subject. There are those who claim that he will, in fact, institute a "death board." They've used the term "bald faced liar."

Mockery it may be, but all that is coming from the right wingers with the conspiracy theories.

Oh I see it too. There is so much to be legitimately concerned about regarding our Commander in Chief that claims such as those are completely unneccessary and actually do more damage than good with regards to their cause. On the other hand your mockery of the aformentioned claims only serves to trivialize legitimate concerns. i.e. Obama lying about his desire to create a single pay system.

Do you have no concerns with regards to President Obama and what he is doing or has done?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[billvon 2,998]

>There is so much to be legitimately concerned about regarding our
>Commander in Chief that claims such as those are completely
>unneccessary and actually do more damage than good with regards to
>their cause.

I agree! They just make the right wing look like kooks. (Needless to say, most of them are not; it just seems that way when you look at what the extremists are saying.)

That's not exclusive to the right wing, of course. We also have people claiming that Bush destroyed the Twin Towers, black people are being "decimated" and that it is now a crime to be poor. They cause similar problems - people ignore the real problems and instead get caught up in the extremist positions.

>On the other hand your mockery of the aformentioned claims only serves
>to trivialize legitimate concerns. i.e. Obama lying about his desire to
>create a single pay system.

That's EXACTLY what a lot of right wingers get so upset about when the left does it. "He just wants to _allow_ prayer in schools, he doesn't want to FORCE people to pray! Why don't you read the fucking bill?" "No, it's a secret plot! First he allows it, then he REQUIRES it! Can't you see his nefarious plan?"

You can debate the bill, and you can say you disagree with his (previously stated) opinion that a single payer system would be even better. But conflating them, and claiming that "if this bill passes it will become a SINGLE PAYER bill!" is not helpful either. I could just as easily claim that if passed, it would not cost us anything, but that's not supportable either.

>Do you have no concerns with regards to President Obama and what he is
>doing or has done?

I have quite a few concerns. The stimulus package: tax cuts were a good idea, infrastructure support was a good idea, corporate bailouts were a bad idea. His decision to eliminate tort reform from the healthcare proposal was a terrible idea.

But you can't discuss things like that on here without someone saying "so you'd be OK with Obama deciding to kill your grandmother?"

[rushmc 23]

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>Dodd would be one I wouldn't mind seeing use the Obama health care
>program of assisted suicide to reduce health care costs for the elderly

I thought he had a "death board" that would decide to execute Dodd as a drain on society? Keep your conspiracy theories straight, man!

All of them in Congress are so, maybe, we do need the board.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[marks2065 0]

Obama didn't help his cause yesterday when he commented on how UPS and fed ex are ok, it is the us mail that has issues. perfect example of why we don't need obama care. the government ALWAYS fucks up and we already have problems why would we need to make it worse? why don't we just fix a couple issues and see what happens. send Illegals home and add a little tort reform and see what happens? Would this be something that the left would agree to? Bill wouldn't this make more sense?

[Ron 10]

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Can't find anything, eh?

Anyone that has read anything you post knows you do it all the time.

BTW, for those folks that want to claim that the VA program is a good example of the Govt running a heathcare system:

1. Have you been to a VA hospital? I have... And I can say that I pay for private healthcare since it is better.

2. How do you plan on paying for it?

Given that right now you have 138 million people paying taxes and only 5.5 million people received care in VA health care facilities in 2008..... (http://www1.va.gov/opa/fact/vafacts.asp)

So you have a 27 taxpayers to 1 patient ratio. If it were expanded to everyone (307,212,123 (July 2009 est.)) then you would have a 55,856,749 patients to 1 taxpayer ratio.

How do you think that will work?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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Can't find anything, eh?

Anyone that has read anything you post knows you do it all the time.

OK, so you really can't find anything.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sundevil777 102]

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You can debate the bill, and you can say you disagree with his (previously stated) opinion that a single payer system would be even better.

It wasn't JUST that Obama made it clear that he thought a single payer system would be even better, he made it clear that it was his goal. But Obama now denies it, dismisses it as irrelevant to bring up his previous, multiple statements of his intentions. Just last night on Hardball an NBC news guy emphatically denied the president had ever said anything like that. Obama is a huge liar, his admin officials are sent out to lie for him, and many in the media are willing to lie for him. No conspiracy from conservatives there, just telling the very inconvenient (to libs) truth.

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But conflating them, and claiming that "if this bill passes it will become a SINGLE PAYER bill!"

I don't know of any claiming it will become a single payer BILL, but it is very reasonable to make the conclusion that the provisions of the bill will have the result, over time, of a single payer system. That shouldn't be a surprise, it was the stated desire of Obama to achieve exactly that. He stated that he would rather do it directly, without the wait.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[marks2065 0]

If Obama's health care bill is so good, why does he need to lie? He said yesterday that the AARP was on board, less than 24 hous after the the head of AARP said on Bill Orielly's show said that they have not aproved the bill. Then you got the press secretary stumbling to find a way to make it look like it isn't a lie. Why would anyone support a bill that the president has to lie to support his position?

[turtlespeed 221]

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If Obama's health care bill is so good, why does he need to lie? He said yesterday that the AARP was on board, less than 24 hous after the the head of AARP said on Bill Orielly's show said that they have not aproved the bill. Then you got the press secretary stumbling to find a way to make it look like it isn't a lie. Why would anyone support a bill that the president has to lie to support his position?

That must have been a simple mistake - I equate it to Bush's "Victory facade" on the carrier when the was was "Won"

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[MaVriK 0]

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This is not about health care. This is about power.

Obama and the Dems consider themselves too smart to listen to the "people". And then when the elections get close again they think we will forget and they turn back to a more conservative demeanor. Cause they know that the agenda they push now can not get them elected.

The fact is, government no longer fears the people. People fear the government, and have lost sight that government and its officials are there to SERVE US..and vote on OUR behalf, not their own. In reality the whole system needs to be restructured , but that my friends i dont think will ever happen... The citizens are being ignored or quieted...and thats not the way things are supposed to go...but hell thats been going on for decades...

~MaVriK~
"The Greatest Accomplishment in life is actually Living it"

[kallend 2,027]

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If Obama's health care bill is so good, why does he need to lie? He said yesterday that the AARP was on board, less than 24 hous after the the head of AARP said on Bill Orielly's show said that they have not aproved the bill.

Last I heard, Congress gets to approve Bills, not AARP.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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If Obama's health care bill is so good, why does he need to lie? He said yesterday that the AARP was on board, less than 24 hous after the the head of AARP said on Bill Orielly's show said that they have not aproved the bill.

Last I heard, Congress gets to approve Bills, not AARP.

What part of "Obama said AARP was on board - AARP says they're not" (paraphrased) was it that tripped you up?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,027]

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If Obama's health care bill is so good, why does he need to lie? He said yesterday that the AARP was on board, less than 24 hous after the the head of AARP said on Bill Orielly's show said that they have not aproved the bill.

Last I heard, Congress gets to approve Bills, not AARP.

What part of "Obama said AARP was on board - AARP says they're not" (paraphrased) was it that tripped you up?

What part of "the head of AARP said on Bill Orielly's show said that they have not aproved (sic) the bill" don't you understand?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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If Obama's health care bill is so good, why does he need to lie? He said yesterday that the AARP was on board, less than 24 hous after the the head of AARP said on Bill Orielly's show said that they have not aproved the bill.

Last I heard, Congress gets to approve Bills, not AARP.

What part of "Obama said AARP was on board - AARP says they're not" (paraphrased) was it that tripped you up?

What part of "the head of AARP said on Bill Orielly's show said that they have not aproved (sic) the bill" don't you understand?

So, you didn't actually have any sort of point, you just wanted to play more semantics games.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,027]

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If Obama's health care bill is so good, why does he need to lie? He said yesterday that the AARP was on board, less than 24 hous after the the head of AARP said on Bill Orielly's show said that they have not aproved the bill.

Last I heard, Congress gets to approve Bills, not AARP.

What part of "Obama said AARP was on board - AARP says they're not" (paraphrased) was it that tripped you up?

What part of "the head of AARP said on Bill Orielly's show said that they have not aproved (sic) the bill" don't you understand?

So, you didn't actually have any sort of point, you just wanted to play more semantics games.

Words ARE important. Read lawrocket's post on that subject.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.