In the first ever unauthorised dispatch from an officer on the frontline, one young Captain offers a brutally honest account of life in Afghanistan

[rickjump1 0]

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Most of the people on here do not have a strong ethical backbone, and lack honesty.

I wish my morals were just as easily flexible, life would be so much easier. Ignorance is bliss.

....................................................................... If you had a strong ethical backbone, honesty, and nonflexible morals you would not be living in the United States. You would be home fighting for Iranian freedom.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[vortexring 0]

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Of course, we're more than happy to instead wait for 62 (?) Westland Wildcats (Future Lynx) to come into service by 2014 (??) for a reported price of around £1 Billion and reject offers from Sikorsky for 60 Blackhawks which we could have received in 2008 & 9 for around £480 million. . . .

Its not about how much you spend its about where you spend it.

Yep, as long as it's a company based in a town beginning with Y.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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I have friends in the military who I care about, but I see your point and am always surprised when others seem to miss it.

A recurring theme I have found.

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Most of the people on here do not have a strong ethical backbone, and lack honesty.

I would have to agree.

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If you simply change the names on any story they have the opposite opinion. Killing inocent people is bad and is terrorism but only when it’s done to us. When we do it Not only is it treated as an action that should be praised, but anyone who does not must be a traitor.
The hypocrisy is as clear as day for me, and I am always blown away by people who seem to casually change what’s right and wrong depending on who is doing the action and not the action it self.

The hypocrisy reaches near ridiculous levels which is ironic given the account of hypocrisy in the gospels and the amount of Jesus lovers we also have floating around.

[antonija 0]

Do you know what happens to a civilian that tortures other people?

We're talking about military here, the disciplined trained and oh-so brave and honourable men and women. I also believe army law is much more strict when it comes to breaking it.

As you say: "The Commanding General, BG Karpinski, US Army Reserves, was relieved of command, demoted to Colonel, and subsequently retired.". Oh the horror. He retired. That must suck for him. What about being in jail for the rest of his life or being executed? You know, for breaking the law in most horrible way imaginable?

I always thought that we are all equal in the eyes of lady justice, but each and every day I find that some are more equal than others and what's even worse people seem perfectly fine with that, they even approve of it!!

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[nerdgirl 0]

I’m probably the wrong person to try to argue as apologist for torture. You may not have been registered, reading, or seen any of those exchanges tho.’

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As you say: "The Commanding General, BG Karpinski, US Army Reserves, was relieved of command, demoted to Colonel, and subsequently retired.". Oh the horror. He retired. That must suck for him. What about being in jail for the rest of his life or being executed? You know, for breaking the law in most horrible way imaginable?

The officer in question, Janis Karpinski, is female.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rivetgeek 0]

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Do you know what happens to a civilian that tortures other people?

We're talking about military here, the disciplined trained and oh-so brave and honourable men and women. I also believe army law is much more strict when it comes to breaking it.

As you say: "The Commanding General, BG Karpinski, US Army Reserves, was relieved of command, demoted to Colonel, and subsequently retired.". Oh the horror. He retired. That must suck for him. What about being in jail for the rest of his life or being executed? You know, for breaking the law in most horrible way imaginable?

I always thought that we are all equal in the eyes of lady justice, but each and every day I find that some are more equal than others and what's even worse people seem perfectly fine with that, they even approve of it!!

I suggest you learn even the smallest bit about the whole thing before commenting to vehemently. Finding out the person in question is female would be a good start.

"I'm going to hunt down the people who have strong opinions on subjects they don't understand. Then I'll bop them with this cardboard tube." -Dogbert

~Bones Knit, blood clots, glory is forever, and chicks dig scars.~

[Darius11 12]

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If you had a strong ethical backbone, honesty, and nonflexible morals you would not be living in the United States. You would be home fighting for Iranian freedom.

Ive done my share of fighting and had the testicular, moral, and ethical fortitude to tell the basij holding an AK47 to my head to go fuck him self.

YOU WISH YOU HAD MY BALLS.

And as for the uprising just because this is the first one you heard tweets on, that doesn’t mean it was the first. There have been hundreds more over the past 20 years. Again proving my point that you are uninformed and lack the knowledge to know that you are simply clueless.


Can you name one time where you risk your life just for what you believe in? Something that you were not paid to do?..........

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[warpedskydiver 0]

Darius, you and Rick would probably like each other if you would only meet.


Many people on here think I am the worst asshole that ever graced the forums, however some people who are of the opposing views and are quite vehement can get along with me and I dare say, like me.

Amazon is one of them, she and I do not argue, we have things we agree upon and do not attempt to agitate each other.

We even discussed hunting together.

And no, she would not shoot me...

[downwardspiral 0]

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Most of the people on here do not have a strong ethical backbone, and lack honesty.


If you simply change the names on any story they have the opposite opinion. Killing inocent people is bad and is terrorism but only when it’s done to us. When we do it Not only is it treated as an action that should be praised, but anyone who does not must be a traitor.
The hypocrisy is as clear as day for me, and I am always blown away by people who seem to casually change what’s right and wrong depending on who is doing the action and not the action it self.

I wish my morals were just as easily flexible, life would be so much easier. Ignorance is bliss.


For many it is easier to think of bad guys and good guy then to take the time to think and gather information to form an opinion.

There are lot of very intelligent people here and while I am sometimes surprised by an individual's opinion, I don't think it's fair to categorize anyone as as unethical and/or without a backbone simply because their opinion differs from mine... or yours.

For the record... I agree that "killing innocents is bad." I believe everyone else here would agree with that as well.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[antonija 0]

Why does the gender even matter? Besides she wasn't CO AFAIK, but some lower in the chain. Not that it matters tho: Why no "real" punishment for these crimes?

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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So just what do you believe in? if anything

There aren't any confusing messages in this thread - killing innocent people is terrorism for everyone and we do the most of it unless you wear glasses of Western exceptionalism.

Wow, talk about an outright LIE. If you had any idea how much planning and effort goes into minimizing civilian casualties, youd be gobsmacked.

I didn't say civilian I said innocent people which includes regular people of any geographical location - no matter how perverse you may find their beliefs, culture, etc - who pick up arms when someone else invades their land.

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The difference between the US military and terrorists is that terrorists TARGET the civilian population to incite fear.

What kind of climate do you imagine being violently subjected to foreign interest creates?

[vortexring 0]

Just a quick reply Marg otherwise my eyes will end up spinning like fruit machine wheels again. Your post reminds me of previous posts we've made, namely being yours in regards to negotiating with the Taliban, and one of mine where I tried to look at the numerous reasons given by officials why we're in Afghanistan - and how often these reasons seem to change. That's an area I'll bring up into more detail/links,etc when I've got the time. Seeing as it's such a contentious issue. Like those pics. . .

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

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What blind trust is that? Have incidents such as Abu Ghraib and the disrespect some governments have for their military not been demonstrated enough? I think you'd be mad to have blind trust. I don't know anyone who has. Seems you do know. Who are these people?

Anyone still fighting for the people that torture other innocent people with no one taking responsibility (and I'm pretty sure the CO of those accused in Abu Ghraib was in it as well, just covered his ass better).
Not to mention all other atrocities that media has no access to, as a soldier you should be familiar with them.

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Why not? I, and I'm sure others, would be most interested to hear your analysis.

I will skip this obvious flamebait as it has nothing to do with this thread.

I'm disappointed - you've an opinion which could be interesting; especially as you allude to it being controversial. Forget the flamebait and fire it off.

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Why are they in Afghanistan then?

Who are they fighting?

Why are they fighting?

It seems you are happy in a knowledge that's somehow incomprehensible to servicemen and women so please feel free to enlighten us.

I was hoping you as a serving soldier will be able answer these questions for me as I (as stated) was able to and neither were others involved. I would very sincerely like an honest answer why people still go abroad for no obvious reason and/or benefit.

Perhaps I misinterpreted your position. It seemed you had the answers that the servicemen and women do not. And yes, it is an area that's not quite as clear as it should be, for some. So I recognise your point.

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Cobblers. Utter nonsense.

Well formulated and logical response.

Similiar to your points which brought the withering reply?

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Like duh! Shootin' folks is fun! Didn't your father tell you this? And there's you earlier alluding to knowing answers servicemen and woman do not.

No, my father explained to me that it does get easier as individual people turn to statistics. I guess he quit the army when he was ordered to kill people who used to be his countrymen (countries do brake apart and usually shit follows). Most people involved in army are not capable of this.
And I never said I have the answers, I was simply asking anyone that has them to provide them.

Do you think anyone has the answers, or rather an opinion? Which country was your father fighting for if you don't mind me asking?

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Wouldn't it also depend on what you're doing in your front yard? Are you sunbathing and minding your own business or are you terrorising and illegally killing your family whilst harbouring a major terrorist organisation? If it's the latter do you still think nobody should be allowed to walk into your front yard and tell you what to do?

Of course it would. But somehow I don't feel it's up to any army to decide if what I'm doing is right or wrong (as a mere idea of a totalitarian organisation deciding rights and wrongs is perverse to say the least).

Well good - who said, or insinuated it's up to an army to make the moral decision in such circumstances?

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If I'm breaking the law, feel free to report me to proper authorities (that is why they're there). If I'm threatening your human rights or maybe even your life with my actions in my backyard, you're also free to report me.
However I do expect (just like you do) to be trialled according to the law, have proper legal representation and a chance to present my case. You would agree this is only fair, wouldn't you?

If your acting (hypothetically) in a manner as previously described, I'd say the best solution would be a bullet in your head - save you killing more innocents.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[antonija 0]

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I'm disappointed - you've an opinion which could be interesting; especially as you allude to it being controversial. Forget the flamebait and fire it off.

The point of my paragraph was the involvement of US in majority of modern day conflicts (conflicts following WW2) and I still believe this is way off topic and I choose to skip it.

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Perhaps I misinterpreted your position. It seemed you had the answers that the servicemen and women do not. And yes, it is an area that's not quite as clear as it should be, for some. So I recognize your point.

Not trying to be smartass or anything but if you do know the answers would you be willing to share them with me? I also understand this is very personal subject so you might not be willing to share that over public forums with people you've never met.

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Cobblers. Utter nonsense.

Well formulated and logical response.

[vortexring 0]

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I'm fascinated now. What sacrifices did you make for your country? I understand 'a couple'. What were they?

None, dividing people by country is for idiots I thought this part was pretty clear.

So they weren't for country. I'd have been surprised if they were, hence my fascination. And who's trying to divide people by country? You're not one of those people who feel their country owe themselves a living are you? Sure, it's fairly clear you misunderstand people in the modern military, I'm now curious as to how you perceive your position to your country in regards to what you do, or believe you should do.

Just look out for number 1?

What have you done for your country? I wonder, because if you believe making an effort for your country is for idiots, what else, if anything, do you do for people within your sphere of influence? Your community? Heck, you clearly state it in your profile, so what've you done?

Or is all your disdain towards ''the idiots'' that serve their nations in a military aspect? Further to that - you also know they're not all idiots. They might be different to you - but covering them all with the 'idiot' brush is rather inflammatory, as your fully aware.

So please explain why they're all idiots? Or would you rather just be continually inflammatory, as per your normal standard of postings.

Hence the reason why I offered you out for a beer and a chat. I doubt you'd be so rude when you're chatting to somebody in person, rather than chatting to an internet forum. The offers still there. Prove me wrong if you like.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

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I'm disappointed - you've an opinion which could be interesting; especially as you allude to it being controversial. Forget the flamebait and fire it off.

The point of my paragraph was the involvement of US in majority of modern day conflicts (conflicts following WW2) and I still believe this is way off topic and I choose to skip it.

Please don't - I reckon it's quite relevant. That aspect of the conversation you can send by PM and it'll stay private. I'm interested, that's all.

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Perhaps I misinterpreted your position. It seemed you had the answers that the servicemen and women do not. And yes, it is an area that's not quite as clear as it should be, for some. So I recognize your point.

Not trying to be smartass or anything but if you do know the answers would you be willing to share them with me? I also understand this is very personal subject so you might not be willing to share that over public forums with people you've never met.

Sure. Firstly I reckon I was a little offended by how you went about bringing this topic up initially. It seemed you'd made the assumption that military personnel are rather brainless in regards to the reasons of why they're there, why they fight, etc. Each individual will always have their own answers for the reasons for doing what they do. In regards to the conflict in Afghanistan, and the generic/official reasons, that does deserve some study, I guess that's going to be a whole new post in itself when I've the time.

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Cobblers. Utter nonsense.

Well formulated and logical response.

Similiar to your points which brought the withering reply?

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Do you think anyone has the answers, or rather an opinion? Which country was your father fighting for if you don't mind me asking?

I was kinda hoping that if some one decides to join the army he/she should also realize that this decisions brings high probability that that person is going to be ordered to kill other men. I expect them to think this decision prior to being to looking down the barrel of the gun with their finger on the trigger. Furthermore I demand (yes, I said demand) that they take _individual_responsibility_ for any acts that may result from their decision to join the army. This would include all answers and reasons and opinions and every other moral dilemma that this question poses.
My father was an officer in Yugoslavian army (he quit before being sent to Croatia/Bosnia).

I was thinking it might have been the Balkans. Don't know where to go with this one really. It was NATO that prevented a large number of evil murdering fuckers from murdering in the Balkans. You, of all people, should appreciate that. You, of all people, should appreciate the sacrifices NATO made towards saving the innocents of that particular area of the world.

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Well good - who said, or insinuated it's up to an army to make the moral decision in such circumstances?

Because it's the army that invades the countries, it the army men that march with weapons in peoples' backyards it's the army that tells them to abandon their homes and run for their lives. Its the decision that army makes whether I like it or not. And I don't like it and I'm doing my best to change that (which is just debating with people but you gotta start somewhere).

In this argument regarding Afghan. it's the politicians mate.

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If your acting (hypothetically) in a manner as previously described, I'd say the best solution would be a bullet in your head - save you killing more innocents.

That might be the best solution. However everyone has a right to a fair trial even if the whole world wants to shoot them. That is the whole point of having courts and law enforcements. If you disagree with that do your best to get rid of police and courts and see where takes you...

Ok........so lets just take the Taliban and Al-Quaeda to court shall we?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

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If you had a strong ethical backbone, honesty, and nonflexible morals you would not be living in the United States. You would be home fighting for Iranian freedom.

Ive done my share of fighting and had the testicular, moral, and ethical fortitude to tell the basij holding an AK47 to my head to go fuck him self.

YOU WISH YOU HAD MY BALLS.

And as for the uprising just because this is the first one you heard tweets on, that doesn’t mean it was the first. There have been hundreds more over the past 20 years. Again proving my point that you are uninformed and lack the knowledge to know that you are simply clueless.


Can you name one time where you risk your life just for what you believe in? Something that you were not paid to do?..........

Darius, please try not to get upset and excitable. You might be wise to regard Warped's advice..........ok, ok, just this one time, at least.


I am enjoying the insinuations that NATO forces are similiar in their motivation to carry out the atrocities that the Taliban/Al-Quaeda do. I'm amazed that having the opinion you have, you actually live in the USA. How could you live in such an evil terrorist country that's hell bent in killing your country men?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[antonija 0]

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I was thinking it might have been the Balkans. Don't know where to go with this one really. It was NATO that prevented a large number of evil murdering fuckers from murdering in the Balkans. You, of all people, should appreciate that. You, of all people, should appreciate the sacrifices NATO made towards saving the innocents of that particular area of the world.

I do appreciate their efforts to prevent many murders and other horrible things. Unfortunately they weren't very successful doing it and we have many infamous areas of former Yugoslavia known only by war atrocities (with NATO peace forces present and unable to do anything).

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In this argument regarding Afghan. it's the politicians mate.

I agree it was politicians that made the decision to send missiles flying over there and it was also politicians that send troops there. But you have to agree it is the soldier on the ground that holds the rifle and fires it, no matter who told him to do so. It is their decision to be made and each and every one of them should stand behind their decisions (like I and most other other people do) and also take the heat when shit hits the fan.

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Ok........so lets just take the Taliban and Al-Quaeda to court shall we?

In the society we live in that is the only fair option to choose from. You might not like that but then you'd be quite annoyed if some one sent you to an island in the middle of nowhere and lock you in a cage without telling you why you are held there and not allow you to have any legal (or other) representation. Torture and humiliation is optional but it seems to be quite regular occurrence so there's one more thing to not look forward to.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[warpedskydiver 0]

A pint at a pig farm?

[vortexring 0]

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I was thinking it might have been the Balkans. Don't know where to go with this one really. It was NATO that prevented a large number of evil murdering fuckers from murdering in the Balkans. You, of all people, should appreciate that. You, of all people, should appreciate the sacrifices NATO made towards saving the innocents of that particular area of the world.

I do appreciate their efforts to prevent many murders and other horrible things. Unfortunately they weren't very successful doing it and we have many infamous areas of former Yugoslavia known only by war atrocities (with NATO peace forces present and unable to do anything).

Well, you've your own countrymen to fundamentally blame for that - so why not just fuck off in regards to blaming and being critical of NATO?

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In this argument regarding Afghan. it's the politicians mate.

I agree it was politicians that made the decision to send missiles flying over there and it was also politicians that send troops there. But you have to agree it is the soldier on the ground that holds the rifle and fires it, no matter who told him to do so. It is their decision to be made and each and every one of them should stand behind their decisions (like I and most other other people do) and also take the heat when shit hits the fan.

I think you're meaning moral leadership here (I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong), but who or what are you alluding to here, in regards to their decisions and the shit hitting the fan? Soldiers disobeying their orders? Going beyond their rules of engagement?

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Ok........so lets just take the Taliban and Al-Quaeda to court shall we?

In the society we live in that is the only fair option to choose from. You might not like that but then you'd be quite annoyed if some one sent you to an island in the middle of nowhere and lock you in a cage without telling you why you are held there and not allow you to have any legal (or other) representation. Torture and humiliation is optional but it seems to be quite regular occurrence so there's one more thing to not look forward to.

Oh bollox. Earlier you mentioned you've every right to go about your business in your front yard without somebody pointing a gun at your head. I made a point - similiar to how the Taliban behave - that it may well be for the common good that somebody does point a gun at your head - in regards to the fact you've behaved in such a way the law/courts,etc can't deal with your behaviour in a timely fashion. In the society we live in, that's not always the fairest option. Or the most sensible.

Can't you see that?

As for your reference to Guantanamo; why not? I'd probably be living in the Bahamas by now, or at least back home carrying on with my terrorism if I was that way inclined.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

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A pint at a pig farm?

No! But fuck me, I'm pissin' myself all the same.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[warpedskydiver 0]

I knew you would find it humorous


Just make sure you bring pliers.

[vortexring 0]

You know I wouldn't bring, or have to bring, anything but my goodself.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[rickjump1 0]

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If you had a strong ethical backbone, honesty, and nonflexible morals you would not be living in the United States. You would be home fighting for Iranian freedom.

Ive done my share of fighting and had the testicular, moral, and ethical fortitude to tell the basij holding an AK47 to my head to go fuck him self.

YOU WISH YOU HAD MY BALLS.

And as for the uprising just because this is the first one you heard tweets on, that doesn’t mean it was the first. There have been hundreds more over the past 20 years. Again proving my point that you are uninformed and lack the knowledge to know that you are simply clueless.


Can you name one time where you risk your life just for what you believe in? Something that you were not paid to do?..........

Like I said, if you truly believe in the Iranian cause, you would be there big balls and all. This is probably too hard for you to comprehend, but off the parade field, American soldiers fight for each other. It isn't the money; it isn't the flag. Been there, done that, and left my blood there. I wasn't drafted. I wanted to be there. If I were in your shoes, I would be an active participant in one of these "tweets". The US is full of "exiles" who hate us, our religion, our military, the language, and our customs only to rant and rave hiding behind the American security blanket with never a thought of returning to their native land. Others with genuine hope, become Americans like our forefathers who fought and died for this great country. Aside from that, I discovered Black Butte Porter in a local store. Great stuff from Deschutes Brewery in Ben Oregon.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[antonija 0]

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Well, you've your own countrymen to fundamentally blame for that - so why not just fuck off in regards to blaming and being critical of NATO?

I never blamed NATO for the situation in Balkans... It was and still is the idea of nationalism that led to the war. All I said was that they didn't do their job like people expected them to. But then again who are we to judge if NATO did it's job or not? Well... we are the one paying taxes so the NATO men and women have salaries, we're the one that buy their gear and we're the one they actually work for. Unfortunately they are guided by politicians _we_ voted for.

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I think you're meaning moral leadership here (I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong), but who or what are you alluding to here, in regards to their decisions and the shit hitting the fan? Soldiers disobeying their orders? Going beyond their rules of engagement?

A simple event of a soldier being in position where he/she has to decide whether to kill a man or not. It is unacceptable to say that you killed some one because you were ordered to (if that was the case than Mansons "pupils" should be left free to fulfill their orders and only the man himself hung by the balls).

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Oh bollox. Earlier you mentioned you've every right to go about your business in your front yard without somebody pointing a gun at your head.

Much like you do. And your neighbors, and everyone else on this planet. You cannot exclude some one from this basic human right, can you?

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I made a point - similiar to how the Taliban behave - that it may well be for the common good that somebody does point a gun at your head - in regards to the fact you've behaved in such a way the law/courts,etc can't deal with your behavior in a timely fashion. In the society we live in, that's not always the fairest option. Or the most sensible.

Can't you see that?

I don't like (or condone) acts of terrorism any more than you do. I dislike many more form of non-social behavior but I also strongly believe in basic human rights.
Instead of going after them with itchy trigger finger you're _only_ legal option is to report them to proper authorities (unless it's a self defense scenario in which case you may use force within limits).
Morally you should also take care that their rights are not violated any more than you'd like yours to be (even if we're talking about the worst child-molesting women-raping bomb-making intolerant scum you can think of).

It one of those things we all really really hate but at the same time we'd hate it even more if some one did it to us especially if we were innocent of the crime (and a lot of imprisoned people in Guantanamo are innocent of terrorism).

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As for your reference to Guantanamo; why not? I'd probably be living in the Bahamas by now, or at least back home carrying on with my terrorism if I was that way inclined.

Or! You'd stil be in that hell, you family would abandon you (after all you are a big bad terrorist), your friends would all move and change their phone numbers, you wouldn't be even allowed to enter most countries, every time you'd show up in a place requiring ID you'd get full cavity search just because you never know, getting a job would be next to impossible, .... unless you really are a terrorist and don't plan to live to see friends, family, job and other stuff anyway you'd be pretty fucked.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne