cash for clunkers "not so green"

[marks2065 0]

I guess the cash for clunkers program forgot to tell people they should buy fuel efficient cars with the money. so I guess being green isn't very important after all.http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1044/spin-meter-3-billion-buys-not-so-green-vehicles/;_ylc=X3oDMTE5M3F1NDB1BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLXRvZGF5BHNsawNjbHVua2VyLXNjYW1z

[quade 4]

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I guess the cash for clunkers program forgot to tell people they should buy fuel efficient cars with the money. so I guess being green isn't very important after all.http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1044/spin-meter-3-billion-buys-not-so-green-vehicles/;_ylc=X3oDMTE5M3F1NDB1BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLXRvZGF5BHNsawNjbHVua2VyLXNjYW1z

There were several reasons for the program; being more fuel efficient was only one of them. The vast majority of vehicles eligible for trade in really were pieces of crap with low MPG. If somebody made a completely neutral MPG trade and went from an old F-150 to a new F-150 (which I think was possible), there were still massive benefits to be had in the program in economic terms of getting cash flowing in the economy.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,068]

> I guess the cash for clunkers program forgot to tell people they
>should buy fuel efficient cars with the money.

Uh, no, they didn't. You have to buy a more efficient car. If someone really needs a truck, and they are trading in a 12mpg truck for one that gets 15mpg we still come out ahead. In fact, trades like that are a lot more important than the guy who trades his old Honda Civic for a Prius.

[kelpdiver 2]

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> I guess the cash for clunkers program forgot to tell people they
>should buy fuel efficient cars with the money.

Uh, no, they didn't. You have to buy a more efficient car. If someone really needs a truck, and they are trading in a 12mpg truck for one that gets 15mpg we still come out ahead. In fact, trades like that are a lot more important than the guy who trades his old Honda Civic for a Prius.

Marginally, and that doesn't mean we should be subsidizing it.

12k miles per year - shifting from 30 to 50 mpg. Saves 160 gallons (400 down to 240).

shifting from 12 to 15 mpg - saves 200 gallons. (1000 down to 800). So yes, it saves 40 more gallons, but even if we amortize this $4500 over 5 years, we're paying $22.5/gallon saved. Terrible policy when we have trillion dollar deficits.

As I keep harping on Kallend in the other thread, the Feds refusal to show the data points behind their summaries leads to questions that the extension was a 2B gift without merit.

[billvon 3,068]

>Marginally, and that doesn't mean we should be subsidizing it.

I agree. Without any additional benefit it's not very cost effective. With a better set of rules (i.e. you have to turn in a car getting 10mpg and get one >30 before you get any money) it would do a lot more.

On the other hand, it is stimulating car sales, and that's going to help US manufacturers, especially since you don't have to buy a Prius to qualify. Some numbers there:

In July, 1,000,000 new cars were purchased, 16% more than the previous month. And the program's only been in effect for the past few weeks, so August should see a larger increase. So far over 300,000 people have used the program, so we should see even bigger increases.

And while I am not a fan of that sort of indirect economic stimulus, it's better than just handing money to companies. Now, if they had used a plan like that to save GM instead of just writing them checks, they would have had a real winner. As it is, it's a lot of money for a moderate benefit.

[rivetgeek 0]

You're missing the economic benefits of getting cash flow moving. would you rather that money just get sent to failing banks who still give out billions in bonuses?

Plus new car sales = new tax/registration income.

~Bones Knit, blood clots, glory is forever, and chicks dig scars.~

[kelpdiver 2]

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You're missing the economic benefits of getting cash flow moving. would you rather that money just get sent to failing banks who still give out billions in bonuses?

Plus new car sales = new tax/registration income.

Money that can't be spent on goods and services, you mean.

If the summary report of 9.5mpg gained was real, then overall it is successful. But when it's used to subsidize the purchases of Hummers and Cadillacs - iow, people who can afford to pay full fare for their gas guzzlers - it's beyond a waste. 10mpg should have been the floor for a handout, not the ceiling.

[rivetgeek 0]

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You're missing the economic benefits of getting cash flow moving. would you rather that money just get sent to failing banks who still give out billions in bonuses?

Plus new car sales = new tax/registration income.

Money that can't be spent on goods and services, you mean.

If the summary report of 9.5mpg gained was real, then overall it is successful. But when it's used to subsidize the purchases of Hummers and Cadillacs - iow, people who can afford to pay full fare for their gas guzzlers - it's beyond a waste. 10mpg should have been the floor for a handout, not the ceiling.

You mean goods and services like cars and gas and oil and car washes?

~Bones Knit, blood clots, glory is forever, and chicks dig scars.~

[kelpdiver 2]

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You're missing the economic benefits of getting cash flow moving. would you rather that money just get sent to failing banks who still give out billions in bonuses?

Plus new car sales = new tax/registration income.

Money that can't be spent on goods and services, you mean.

If the summary report of 9.5mpg gained was real, then overall it is successful. But when it's used to subsidize the purchases of Hummers and Cadillacs - iow, people who can afford to pay full fare for their gas guzzlers - it's beyond a waste. 10mpg should have been the floor for a handout, not the ceiling.

You mean goods and services like cars and gas and oil and car washes?

Money spent on registration fees and taxes is money that cannot be spent on oil changes and car washes, both of which can (with some consequences) be done less often if money isn't available.

So WTF was your point?

[Remster 30]

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more important than the guy who trades his old Honda Civic for a Prius.

Of course, you could trade that old Civic in, but you wont get help from CARS for it. I looked into trading in our 98 Integra, and it has too good a MPG rating to be eligible for a CARS refund.

Remster

[rivetgeek 0]

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You're missing the economic benefits of getting cash flow moving. would you rather that money just get sent to failing banks who still give out billions in bonuses?

Plus new car sales = new tax/registration income.

Money that can't be spent on goods and services, you mean.

If the summary report of 9.5mpg gained was real, then overall it is successful. But when it's used to subsidize the purchases of Hummers and Cadillacs - iow, people who can afford to pay full fare for their gas guzzlers - it's beyond a waste. 10mpg should have been the floor for a handout, not the ceiling.

You mean goods and services like cars and gas and oil and car washes?

Money spent on registration fees and taxes is money that cannot be spent on oil changes and car washes, both of which can (with some consequences) be done less often if money isn't available.

So WTF was your point?

uh...do you KNOW how the economy works? Money spent on taxes goes back into the tax coffers which negates part of the debt incurred by the program in the first place. Money spent on registration takes federal money and makes it state money.

If you havent gotten the point by now you havent been paying attention.

~Bones Knit, blood clots, glory is forever, and chicks dig scars.~

[justinb138 0]

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If you havent gotten the point by now you havent been paying attention.

So, tell me, what's the annual interest on a billion dollar loan?

[rivetgeek 0]

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If you havent gotten the point by now you havent been paying attention.

So, tell me, what's the annual interest on a billion dollar loan?

A billion dollars seems like a lot to you and I. On a national scale its a TINY price to pay to help restart the economy. The Iraq war, as a comparison, has cost TRILLIONS and done nothing for us.

~Bones Knit, blood clots, glory is forever, and chicks dig scars.~

[kelpdiver 2]

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uh...do you KNOW how the economy works? Money spent on taxes goes back into the tax coffers which negates part of the debt incurred by the program in the first place. Money spent on registration takes federal money and makes it state money.

If you havent gotten the point by now you havent been paying attention.

And you missed every economics class you ever attended, apparently. Esp the ones on shell games. Spending $4500 in red ink and then talking about the benefits of the states getting a couple hundred/yr in registration fees sounds much like dumping $100 on lotto tickets and being pleased about the $2 winner.

You completely failed to show why it's good to spend this money on Hummers rather than cars making reasonable mileage. The same economic benefits you speak of come from people buying Corollas and Malibus. The people and the nation would come out ahead - less money spent on gas, less money sent to the Saudis.

[billvon 3,068]

> Spending $4500 in red ink and then talking about the benefits of the
> states getting a couple hundred/yr in registration fees sounds much like
>dumping $100 on lotto tickets and being pleased about the $2 winner.

Of course, if spending that $100 (and getting some of your friends to do it as well) keeps the store open, and allows your wife to keep her job, you might just come out ahead.

[justinb138 0]

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A billion dollars seems like a lot to you and I. On a national scale its a TINY price to pay to help restart the economy. The Iraq war, as a comparison, has cost TRILLIONS and done nothing for us.

Well hell, it's only a trillion dollars, why don't we just waste more of it? And it does nothing to restart the economy, it just diverts money from something people would have spent it on to something the government wants to spend it on - there's no net gain.

Your logic is what got the country in this mess in the first place.

A billion dollars is 1,000,000 people having to pay an additional $1,000 + interest in taxes.

[justinb138 0]

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>
Of course, if spending that $100 (and getting some of your friends to do it as well) keeps the store open, and allows your wife to keep her job, you might just come out ahead.

Of course, if that $100 that someone would have spent in your store gets taken by the government and given to people to spend at the other store and your wife loses her job, you might not come out ahead.

[billvon 3,068]

>Of course, if that $100 that someone would have spent in your store
>gets taken by the government and given to people to spend at the other
>store and your wife loses her job, you might not come out ahead.

Right. Which is why it makes sense to use the cash for clunkers program to encourage people to buy cars from car companies, instead of from the government.

[SkyChimp 0]

It's all a f**king joke!!! By the way.... anyone see the Facebook poll numbers for our buddy boy Barrack?? 29% approval, 69% disapproval, 2% undecided. Bottoms up Obama, enjoy the joyride while it lasts!! A sixteen year old behind the wheel of a Ferrari.

Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?!

[1969912 0]

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A sixteen year old behind the wheel of a Ferrari.

Pretty much sums it up. Way over his head. What was it that some said about lack of experience?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Lefty 0]

Let's not forget one of the most obvious flaws in Cash-For-Clunkers: cars that still have economic value are being destroyed. This is from a CNN article:

"Despite the popular "clunker" name, the government requires vehicles to be drivable and to have been insured continuously for the past year. So no hauling, pushing or pulling broken-down jalopies into dealer parking lots."

The trade-ins (still drivable and workable) are then required to be scrapped.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[rivetgeek 0]

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It's all a f**king joke!!! By the way.... anyone see the Facebook poll numbers for our buddy boy Barrack?? 29% approval, 69% disapproval, 2% undecided. Bottoms up Obama, enjoy the joyride while it lasts!! A sixteen year old behind the wheel of a Ferrari.

...Seriously? A facebook poll? Well if the 12-20 demographic believes it, it must be true.

~Bones Knit, blood clots, glory is forever, and chicks dig scars.~

[mnealtx 0]

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It's all a f**king joke!!! By the way.... anyone see the Facebook poll numbers for our buddy boy Barrack?? 29% approval, 69% disapproval, 2% undecided. Bottoms up Obama, enjoy the joyride while it lasts!! A sixteen year old behind the wheel of a Ferrari.

...Seriously? A facebook poll? Well if the 12-20 demographic believes it, it must be true.

I guess you were unaware that Rasmussen now feeds poll results on Twitter and Facebook.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,106]

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It's all a f**king joke!!! By the way.... anyone see the Facebook poll numbers for our buddy boy Barrack?? 29% approval, 69% disapproval, 2% undecided. Bottoms up Obama, enjoy the joyride while it lasts!! A sixteen year old behind the wheel of a Ferrari.

...Seriously? A facebook poll? Well if the 12-20 demographic believes it, it must be true.

I guess you were unaware that Rasmussen now feeds poll results on Twitter and Facebook.

www.gallup.com/Home.aspx

Still 53% approval despite the systematic program of lies being spread around by the GOP.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rhaig 0]

who gives a damn what the approval rating is?? And if they do, why? What matters is what you think!

Fuck approval ratings. Numbers are so simply twisted.

My general response to people quoting approval stats is along the lines of "what, can't form your own opinion so you have to see which group you should go along with?"

--
Rob