religious geography

[Andy9o8 2]

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So this higher consiousness does exist, but if the person frames it within a religious context, it then ceases to exist?

No, not at all. He simply forms a thought of a particular concept which exists only in the abstract - that is to say, only in his own mind - despite the fact that he believes it to exist in some manner of reality beyond merely his own thought processes.

[RonD1120 62]

Excellent, thank you for your thoughtful response. I am going to think about what you wrote and get back to you later. I am working outside at this time. I have read or heard of your conceptual philosophy before but I forget the context.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,490]

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First - I'm not using "sentience" in the Eastern philosophical sense; I'm using it in a scientific sense. Perhaps I should use the word "sapient", rather than "sentient", but I'm using the term in a shorthand sense to (putting it simplified form) refer to the type of higher, conscious, awareness of self and others in physical, measurable time and space, as well as the ability to think in the abstract and in the hypothetical, which exists in humans but (as far as I know) does not exist in lower animals.

So this higher consiousness does exist, but if the person frames it within a religious context, it then ceases to exist?

I think that Andy is referring to our own higher consciousness, as in higher than other animals.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[happythoughts 0]

Higher powers? Which one is the valid one?

For the Druids, animism promoted the idea that spirits
lived in rocks, trees, and streams. How about All Hallows Eve where the dead spirits roamed ?
That sounds...?

Odin, Thor... with their jealousies and anger.

The pantheon of Greek gods - one for every occasion.
Later, renamed and adopted by the Romans.

The Egyptian cat thing. Worshiping cats. There's a winner.
Anyone want to go on record as being all about their
divine cat? Pretty ridiculous.

Those are called myths because they are old and we don't believe in them anymore.
The conceptual foundation of invisible beings running
around, controlling your life, is the same implausible rubbish.

Different from todays religion? Nope.

From the first post, the only difference between todays
religions is that people accept the one that they grew
up with.

Todays fervent Christian would be an ardent Muslim if
they grew up on another continent.

Governments promote religion for their own uses.
People need it to avoid facing their psychological issues.
Just because people need a crutch does not make it valid.

The world would be a much better place without mysticism. There is no "higher power".

[RonD1120 62]

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Higher powers? There is no "higher power".

Well, that just wiped out and negated the professional field of substance abuse/chemical dependency. I retired just in the nick of time, eh.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Skyrad 0]

Jesus was never anything other than Jewish

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[RonD1120 62]

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Jesus was never anything other than Jewish

Obviously, you don't know Him.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[virgin-burner 1]

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Jesus was never anything other than Jewish

Obviously, you don't know Him.

but he's a good buddy of yours and he comes over every now and then to have a beer with you!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Skyrad 0]

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Higher powers? There is no "higher power".

Well, that just wiped out and negated the professional field of substance abuse/chemical dependency. I retired just in the nick of time, eh.

i'm interested in what you stated here, can you please expand on what you mean?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Jesus was never anything other than Jewish

Obviously, you don't know Him.

Are you being serious? Christianity didn't exist when Jesus walked the earth (Even if you accept that he still lives in a spirit form, that doesn't change the fact that he was a Jew)
If you don't believe that Jesus was a Jew just what religion do you think he was?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[RonD1120 62]

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Higher powers? There is no "higher power".

Well, that just wiped out and negated the professional field of substance abuse/chemical dependency. I retired just in the nick of time, eh.

i'm interested in what you stated here, can you please expand on what you mean?

Every treatment program I have worked in since the mid-80's utilizes the 12 step program in some manner. The 12 step program is based on surrendering to a higher power. Google 12 Step, Twelve Step, Alcoholics Anonymous or, Narcotics Anonymous. There are others but this is the core.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[virgin-burner 1]

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Higher powers? There is no "higher power".

Well, that just wiped out and negated the professional field of substance abuse/chemical dependency. I retired just in the nick of time, eh.

i'm interested in what you stated here, can you please expand on what you mean?

Every treatment program I have worked in since the mid-80's utilizes the 12 step program in some manner. The 12 step program is based on surrendering to a higher power. Google 12 Step, Twelve Step, Alcoholics Anonymous or, Narcotics Anonymous. There are others but this is the core.

used to fish people that have problems into a culty sect and gather new members; when they're down, kick them in the dirt, take all their money and tell them they're healed now!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[RonD1120 62]

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Are you being serious? Christianity didn't exist when Jesus walked the earth (Even if you accept that he still lives in a spirit form, that doesn't change the fact that he was a Jew)
If you don't believe that Jesus was a Jew just what religion do you think he was?

He was certainly Jewish. He was also the Messiah, The Son of God, The Word in the flesh, The Son of man, the propitiation for man's sin, victorious over death to name a few things.

When Saul encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus his name became Paul and he was subsequently directed to take the message to the Gentiles.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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Every treatment program I have worked in since the mid-80's utilizes the 12 step program in some manner. The 12 step program is based on surrendering to a higher power. Google 12 Step, Twelve Step, Alcoholics Anonymous or, Narcotics Anonymous. There are others but this is the core.

used to fish people that have problems into a culty sect and gather new members; when they're down, kick them in the dirt, take all their money and tell them they're healed now!

You are so far off base with that remark you have made yourself look foolish.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[virgin-burner 1]

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Every treatment program I have worked in since the mid-80's utilizes the 12 step program in some manner. The 12 step program is based on surrendering to a higher power. Google 12 Step, Twelve Step, Alcoholics Anonymous or, Narcotics Anonymous. There are others but this is the core.

used to fish people that have problems into a culty sect and gather new members; when they're down, kick them in the dirt, take all their money and tell them they're healed now!

You are so far off base with that remark you have made yourself look foolish.

you know, i really like answering the door to find some couple, usually dressed in black pants and white shirts with backpacks on, carrying the "watchtower" and saying: "hi, we represent a christian group.." on which i stop, look at the magazine, say "ouh, watchtower, you must be members of the witnesses of jehova!" - then the answer comes "yes, in fact, do you know our christian group?" my standard-answer: "yes, i already have a religion that i dont really care for and dont feel the need to adopt another one!". if they still continue, i usually open the door a little more and let the dog peek through; that usually makes them fuck off!

to be a member of said sect, you're supposed to give a tenth of your paycheck to the "church".. i dont think yours will be much different.

so, since you're so eager on recruiting even on this website, i doubt that you'll stop at those helpless souls.

that comment hasnt made me look foolish, it actually has revealed the true nature of your intentions..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[wmw999 2,447]

Ron's comment was about 12-stepper groups being recruitment fronts. Notice that even Ron (who considers himself to be a pretty devout Christian) called it a "higher power" in the context of a 12-step group.

It's about finding a tool that works with addiction, and this is a tool that's effective for a larger number of people than most. Let them attack a very difficult problem with whatever tool they figure will help.

I doubt he spent years trying to get people to come to his church from work. That would be recruitment. Don't try to equate the two. 12-step groups are there for people who seek them out (well, either that or are forced to attend them as a condition of parole or probation etc ).

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[virgin-burner 1]

yup, thats my point, pretty devot sect recruiter.. if he cant stop here, why should he there; those 12-steppers ARE religiously motivated, and it IS a form of recruitment. just saying its not wont change the fact.

edited to add 2 random links:

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2001/03/A-A-Americas-Stealth-Religion.aspx

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot030.html

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[wmw999 2,447]

Do you know of any non-faith-based addiction programs with as good a track record across a broad base of the population?

By non-faith-based I mean they DO NOT talk of a higher power of any sort, whether it's non-specific or "the dude in the sky with the beard."

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[virgin-burner 1]

yes, plenty! usually people are brought to a closed facility where they receive therapy and psychological treatment, and no "higher power" bogus. you know, proper treatment!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[wmw999 2,447]

How long do they stay in, and are they recommended for some sort of follow-up? What does the therapy consist of? What does the psychological help consist of?

Believe it or not, there are plenty of in-patient rehab programs that use 12-step to help.

Note: Ron would probably not consider me a Christian. I am not an addict, and have not used a 12-step program. But I'm not about to tell anyone in the grip of addiction that a set of tools that have a good track record should be off-limits to them because I disagree with their premise. That's bullshit.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[virgin-burner 1]

that depends on the patient really, takes somewhere from a month to six or so.. i cant spill out every form of therapy, as i've never done it, but i know plenty of people that have.. 12-steppers was never a topic.

did you even bother to read the links? i'm opposed to any form of recruitment from any sort of sect; scientology has a good set of record too, doesnt mean they wont rob you blind in the end!

i have a friend that is into some sort of that shit. including end-of-the-world scenarios, UFO's picking them up; yea, guess what, the spaceships never showed, but the house and everything else was sold and the money given to their leader.. nice, ey!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[wmw999 2,447]

I read the beliefnet one. Having been around alcoholics, and having watched some threads previously, I can assure you that the ones I've heard of aren't trying to get folks into any sort of organized religion. There are a lot of flavors, and there are plenty of people who consider themselves to be atheists here on dz.com who swear by 12-step programs.

The programs were tools that helped them when nothing else was helping.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Andy9o8 2]

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How long do they stay in, and are they recommended for some sort of follow-up? What does the therapy consist of? What does the psychological help consist of?

Believe it or not, there are plenty of in-patient rehab programs that use 12-step to help.

Note: Ron would probably not consider me a Christian. I am not an addict, and have not used a 12-step program. But I'm not about to tell anyone in the grip of addiction that a set of tools that have a good track record should be off-limits to them because I disagree with their premise. That's bullshit.

I agree; and in my post above, I acknowledged that if that particular tool set worked for people, good for them. But Ron was impliedly asserting that, in the absence of a religious or spiritual faith in God or something supernatural - so that the person can "surrender to that supernatural higher power" - that a 12-step program simply cannot work with the same success rate. And that's bullshit, too.

"Surrendering to a higher power", or "power greater than me", etc. is a state of mind or intellect that CAN be spiritually-based, but does not NEED to be spiritually or supernaturally based. At the end of the day, it's all about achieving a state of mental and emotional peace and control to help turn around personal dysfunction. But that process - that state of mind - can be accomplished by atheists just as well as it can be by those inclined to religious or spiritual beliefs.

[wmw999 2,447]

That's interesting -- I didn't infer that from what he said particularly. In fact, his wording "higher power" instead of "God" or even reference to supernatural made me think that as a counselor, he tried to keep it away from specifically Christian theology.

"Higher power" is, I believe, the specific term used in the 12-step terminology. I'm sure that at a Catholic church, the higher power doesn't ordain women, at a Southern Baptist church, the group lead in a mixed-gender group is a man, in a Unitarian Universalist congregation the term "higher power" is emphatically not explained further, and in a Quaker congregation, he's very quiet until there's something important to say

And I'd agree that atheists can use the term "higher power" to mean "that which I don't understand and which is causing me to fuck my life over right now." That higher power might be they themselves, but without giving it an identity, it might be harder for them to realize that their addiction of choice really is stronger than they are -- they need help that they don't normally access. Wherever it comes from.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Andy9o8 2]

OK, just to explain my thought process (but not to get us sucked into semantics), Happythoughts said "The world would be a much better place without mysticism. There is no 'higher power'." Stated that way, Happy's remark seemed to equate "higher power" with God, or spiritual being, etc. Anyhow, to that sentence, Ron replied "Well, that just wiped out and negated the professional field of substance abuse/chemical dependency." And that's what I was reacting to, because in that precise conversational context, it seemed to me that Ron was saying that having religious or spiritual faith, per se, was a necessary component to an effective substance abuse recovery program. With which I disagree. But, if "higher power" means "whatever I don't quite understand that makes me fuck up", and that can be used generically to include a completely secular meaning, then I'm OK with that.

My understanding of the history of AA's 12-step program is that the "higher power" element originally did have a mainly religious meaning, but that AA eventually "expanded" on what it "could" mean, in order to reconcile it with criticisms that it was unreasonably narrow. My commentary was basically echoing that criticism.