Health Bill Facts?

[rushmc 23]

I was pointed to this site by another on this site.

some interesting truths and lies about the health care debate

Rationing? Obama and Dean say "no".

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/25/howard-dean/rationing-health-care-reform/

Obesity Savings?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/aug/24/obama-wrong-again-about-obesity-savings/

Ohh, here is a favorte of a poster here regarding the US comparison to other countries on the cost per capita. He posts a lie according to this

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/20/bernie-s/sanders-says-us-doubles-every-other-country-capita/

Over 76% want a public option? Not so much

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/20/progressive-change-campaign-committee/groups-claim-overwhelming-support-public-option/

How many die because they are not insured?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/aug/20/second-opinion-deaths-totals-uninsured/

Fun stuff.

Much more there
I have seen them change ratings when new info is pointed out to them

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,027]

Why don't you post the links on the same site to the multitude of lies by Boehner (R), and in particular these PANTS ON FIRE lies by your side?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 4]

Oh please! You expect quite a bit out of him; don't you?

I would have expected him to, for instance, just read the first article he linked because I'm fairly certain it doesn't mean what he thinks it means.

After seeing that, I was pretty sure he was just looking at headlines.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

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Why don't you post the links on the same site to the multitude of lies by Boehner (R), and in particular these PANTS ON FIRE lies by your side?

Some of what I did post I dont agree with

I posted the flip flop entotal sir.

the site is there. I picked some that had been posted to here

Like the COST bs being posted

Add to it if you like. I find the site interesting and I dont agree with all the conclusions either, as I am sure you will not

Pants on fire is there for both sides.

Have a blast oh excitable one

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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Oh please! You expect quite a bit out of him; don't you?

I would have expected him to, for instance, just read the first article he linked because I'm fairly certain it doesn't mean what he thinks it means.

After seeing that, I was pretty sure he was just looking at headlines.

Been a rough month for you huh.......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

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Been a rough month for you huh.......

Only so much in that it's nearly impossible to debunk the amount of bullshit coming from the fear mongers. That is, however, the tactic they've decided to use; flood the marketplace of ideas with bullshit based on fear and a real conversation will never have to happen.

I give the assholes in corporate suits points for doing it so well that another 18,000 to 22,000 Americans this year will die from lack of healthcare.

Bravo greedy fuckers of the world.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

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Been a rough month for you huh.......

Only so much in that it's nearly impossible to debunk the amount of bullshit coming from the fear mongers. That is, however, the tactic they've decided to use; flood the marketplace of ideas with bullshit based on fear and a real conversation will never have to happen.

I give the assholes in corporate suits points for doing it so well that another 18,000 to 22,000 Americans this year will die from lack of healthcare.

Bravo greedy fuckers of the world.

why Thank You

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JohnnyD 0]

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Been a rough month for you huh.......

Only so much in that it's nearly impossible to debunk the amount of bullshit coming from the fear mongers. That is, however, the tactic they've decided to use; flood the marketplace of ideas with bullshit based on fear and a real conversation will never have to happen.

I give the assholes in corporate suits points for doing it so well that another 18,000 to 22,000 Americans this year will die from lack of healthcare.

Bravo greedy fuckers of the world.

why Thank You

What a disgusting thing to be proud of.

[rushmc 23]

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Been a rough month for you huh.......

Only so much in that it's nearly impossible to debunk the amount of bullshit coming from the fear mongers. That is, however, the tactic they've decided to use; flood the marketplace of ideas with bullshit based on fear and a real conversation will never have to happen.

I give the assholes in corporate suits points for doing it so well that another 18,000 to 22,000 Americans this year will die from lack of healthcare.

Bravo greedy fuckers of the world.

why Thank You

What a disgusting thing to be proud of.

Ridiculously stupid comments require ridiculously stupid replies.

Sorry that is too complex to you to see
Or understand

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JohnnyD 0]

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Bravo greedy fuckers of the world.

why Thank You
What a disgusting thing to be proud of.

Ridiculously stupid comments require ridiculously stupid replies.

Sorry that is too complex to you to see
Or understand
"You're about to spin right off this planet. That's what I love about you." - Ari Gold

[rushmc 23]

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Bravo greedy fuckers of the world.

why Thank You

What a disgusting thing to be proud of.

Ridiculously stupid comments require ridiculously stupid replies.

Sorry that is too complex to you to see
Or understand
"You're about to spin right off this planet. That's what I love about you." - Ari Gold

Spin?

Alright

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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it's nearly impossible to debunk the amount of bullshit coming from the fear mongers..........another 18,000 to 22,000 Americans this year will die from lack of healthcare.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 23]

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it's nearly impossible to debunk the amount of bullshit coming from the fear mongers..........another 18,000 to 22,000 Americans this year will die from lack of healthcare.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,452]

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bullshit is easy to debunk

Great. You going to do it, or just snicker?

Data is good. Opinions don't count for as much, and copying articles in doesn't unless you abstract why that article is relevant.

Nerdgirl's posting style is awesome.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

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bullshit is easy to debunk

Great. You going to do it, or just snicker?

Data is good. Opinions don't count for as much, and copying articles in doesn't unless you abstract why that article is relevant.

Nerdgirl's posting style is awesome.

Wendy P.

Yes, her style is very complete. There are few here (including me) who have the talent and paitence to reply in that way.

My point to quade was more of one that is sucks to loose. as Obama and the dems are doing in the health care debate. There is enough bs on both sides but, I feel that the side with more truth will win now that this has gotten drawn out. There is a REASON Obama wanted this done so fast. Cause he knew it could not survive and open debate.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

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Cause he knew it could not survive and open debate.

There is no "debate" going on. Only an attempt by the insurance industry to shut down all discussion by use of ridiculous claims and fear tactics.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

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Cause he knew it could not survive and open debate.

There is no "debate" going on. Only an attempt by the insurance industry to shut down all discussion by use of ridiculous claims and fear tactics.

If the truth is on your side it will go through. Obama knows this is not the case, hense, the speedy attempt. The bill is not surviving because of its own weight. Period. No other reason.

but the left is famous for attacking business to strike fear and anger to get their agenda passed. forutnatley, this health care shit is so ugly, even that page in the playbook will not work

But go ahead and keep going after "big insurance" I will just watch and see who the next demon is

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

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But go ahead and keep going after "big insurance" I will just watch and see who the next demon is

So, let me get this straight, you're denying that the health insurance companies are backing opposition to healthcare reform?

Is that your claim?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

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But go ahead and keep going after "big insurance" I will just watch and see who the next demon is

So, let me get this straight, you're denying that the health insurance companies are backing opposition to healthcare reform?

Is that your claim?

No, but it is an irrelavant point any way you look at it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

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But go ahead and keep going after "big insurance" I will just watch and see who the next demon is

So, let me get this straight, you're denying that the health insurance companies are backing opposition to healthcare reform?
Is that your claim?

No, but it is an irrelavant point any way you look at it

Is it? Clearly it's irrelevant any way YOU look at it, but I think there are some folks that need to know where and why all the "death panel" crap is coming from. Yep, the same people that currently ARE the death panel.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[marks2065 0]

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But go ahead and keep going after "big insurance" I will just watch and see who the next demon is

So, let me get this straight, you're denying that the health insurance companies are backing opposition to healthcare reform?
Is that your claim?

No, but it is an irrelavant point any way you look at it

Is it? Clearly it's irrelevant any way YOU look at it, but I think there are some folks that need to know where and why all the "death panel" crap is coming from. Yep, the same people that currently ARE the death panel.

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The health care bill was not wrote nor read by congress. Maybe they are failling because they don't know what is in the bill, or maybe they can't deffend against the attacks because they don't know whats in the bill, maybe they are loosing ground because THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IS IN THE BILL. How can anyone in congress even cast a vote for or against any bill that was not read, wrote or understood by anyone in congress? What are they going to vote on?Maybe they should sit down and type a bill that makes sense to them and us then vote on it.

If I said give me $10,000 dollars would you give it to me without a very good reason? would you trust me to make sure I knew what it was going for or would you ask me to explain the details? If I didn't know the details would you still give it to me? Lets use some common sense and make congress wright the bill themselves, understand what they wrote and then acurately tell us how it will work and then vote on it. Beside what is the rush? most of the bill won't even take effect until 2013, what is a couple more months going to do for anyone between now and then?

[GeorgiaDon 362]

Wendy,

The estimate of 18,000-22,000 additional deaths is from a series of Institute of Medicine reports. The most recent is here: http://www.rwjf.org/files/research/20090224iomamericasuninsuredcrisis.pdf
It seems the methodology was a fairly simple comparison of mortality rates of uninsured vs insured.

A study by RG Kronick published this month (abstract and link to full article is here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19453392?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum) (epub was available April 21 2009, so still a very recent paper) reanalyzed the mortality data, factoring out things like smoker/nonsmoker, obesity, etc. He found that all the differences in the IOM study could be accounted for by lifestyle associated factors, and insurance did not have a significant influence on mortality. From the abstract of the paper: "CONCLUSIONS: The Institute of Medicine's estimate that lack of insurance leads to 18,000 excess deaths each year is almost certainly incorrect. It is not possible to draw firm causal inferences from the results of observational analysis, but there is little evidence to suggest that extending insurance coverage to all adults would have a large effect on the number of deaths in the United States." Elsewhere he says that the results were not what he was expecting, and indeed he has a long history as an advocate of improved access to health insurance, so there is no indication that the findings were "cooked" to fit a political leaning.

My personal take on things:
1) The study only examined mortality (death) as an outcome variable, and the sample of patients was capped at age 64 as it is assumed that at 65 everybody goes on medicare and is therefore insured. Given the average life expectancy in this country (white females: 80.6 yrs; black females 76.5 yrs; white males 75.7 yrs; black males 69.7 yrs according to the CDC), the sample size of expected deaths prior to age 65 might not be large enough to detect subtle influences, especially considering that many of those deaths would be due to accident or homicide, where insurance might be moot. Also, as has been pointed out by many posters on this and other threads, when it gets to the point of life-or-death situations, everyone can just show up at the hospital and they have to be treated, so in that sense no-one is really denied life-saving treatment regardless of insurance status. The question is, who pays for the treatment (patient, taxpayers, other patients who are insured, or the hospital eats the cost?). This last-minute intervention will also (IMO) obscure the role of insurance in influencing outcome.

Basically, lack of insurance correlates with other lifestyle choices (diet, smoking, exercise vs couch potato, etc) that are more influential than insurance when it comes to risk of dying.

2) I really think a more useful metric would be to look at morbidity (sickness) and disability. The WHO now uses a measurement called the DALY (Disability Adjusted Lost Years) to measure the impact of disease on economic productivity. There are lots of diseases that won't kill you (so no impact on mortality), but they will disable you to the point where your ability to work is diminished or eliminated entirely. River blindness (Onchocerciasis) is an example of one such disease that I happen to work on. You can live with chronic heart disease well past 65, but you might not be able to walk up a flight of stairs (much less handle a full shift at Walmart). My intuition (and obviously I haven't done a statistical analysis) is that lack of insurance will lead to delayed treatment and a greater risk of chronic illness and disability (increased DALYs in the no-insurance group).

3) Another interesting thing to look at would be life expectancy past age 65 in the group that didn't have insurance up until medicare kicked in.

Hope this helps,

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[wmw999 2,452]

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3) Another interesting thing to look at would be life expectancy past age 65 in the group that didn't have insurance up until medicare kicked in.

I like that -- it makes a whole lot of sense, although there'd be a decent amount of crunching required to clean up the data.

And thanks for all the data...

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[futuredivot 0]

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you're denying that the health insurance companies are backing opposition to healthcare reform?

They haven't given me any compensation and I'm very opposed to this particular brand of healthcare reform. Have they given financial backing to others opposed? I'm sure they have. I doubt you'll find any potential law or policy reform that has not been aided by some group. Some people, like Healthcare Management and Information Systems, who stand to make a mint on the required electronic record keeping are actively backing the administration's plan. It does seem to come down to who's pockets get lined, you just chose not to look at that side.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[lawrocket 3]

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Been a rough month for you huh.......

Only so much in that it's nearly impossible to debunk the amount of bullshit coming from the fear mongers. That is, however, the tactic they've decided to use; flood the marketplace of ideas with bullshit based on fear and a real conversation will never have to happen.

I give the assholes in corporate suits points for doing it so well that another 18,000 to 22,000 Americans this year will die from lack of healthcare.

Bravo greedy fuckers of the world.

You'll like this memo. I gotta hand it to these guy for their prediction. But their suggested handling is making it worse.

http://www.businessinsider.com/help-analyze-obamas-health-care-bill-2009-6

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Several aspects of Health Care Reform are being attacked by those who are against meaningful public oversight. The attacks thus far have ranged from going after the option of a public plan, the Federal Health Board idea and anything that controls prices. All of these attacks emanate from the same basic attack frame – a Big Government Bureaucratic take-over of Health Care. Examples include:
1. A government bureaucrat will make the decisions that you and your doctor should be making.
2. A big government bureaucracy will deny the care your doctor says you need.
3. An oversight role combined with a public plan will drive private insurers out of the market and leave you with a sub-standard politburo public program.
4. Evidenced based medicine is a centralized, bureaucratic health decision making process that is anti-American.

Sound familiar, Paul? Seems to be your complaints.

But here's the next part and recommendation, which is being followed to a tee!

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Overarching Messaging Advice:
1.) Avoid getting into the details: At this point, DO NOT get sucked into debating the details of reform. Avoid policy details and speak to Americans in the language of ‘the kitchen table’ - address their values, their interests and the concerns they have for their families. For too long, the health care reform community has gotten pulled into talking about the minutia of policy. But, the American public does not relate to health care from a detailed policy perspective. Aim your messaging for the heart – not the head. If your message is not emotionally compelling – start again. A great example of this is talking about the peace of mind that comes with knowing your child can see their family doctor if the need arises – not talking about ‘SCHIP’.

Yep. The only "details" about the plans are coming from the opponents. The administration is taking this advice and are on the defensive.

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2.) Put THEM on the Defense: Question why the attacker is defending the status quo – with its’ skyrocketing costs and care that is unaffordable. Are they defending the higher costs? The denied care? The fear of getting sick? Play offense.

Yep. And it's not working. This has the message, "We won't tell you about our plan. We'll just hate on the other side. And people will dig it."

It doesn't work that way.

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3.) If You Like It --- You Can Keep It. One of the most powerful ways to inoculate from the big government attack is to reassure folks that, if they like what they have they can keep it and with reform there will be more options to choose from than they have today. People overwhelmingly want a choice between a public and private health plans.

We've heard this time and again. And it's not sticking. Why? Because people want to know how, but those questions go unanswered because the proponents won't get into details and attack the status quo.

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4.) Hold the Insurance Companies Accountable: Americans want an independent voice that is on their side that can set rules that are fair for families & businesses. They want a tough and fair watchdog to make sure insurers treat them and their families fairly.

This is the other thing. "Don't defend my plan. Don't talk about my plan with the exception of 'you have a choice.' Attack the opposition and demonize the insurance companies."

It's not working, Paul.

Check out the responses. The Obama Administration isn't keeping it real. People don't like it when someone doesn't say what's good about there's if it is foreign and they don't know it. They react well if someone says, "Here's what I'd like to do and here's how I'm going to do it."

The Democrats have nobody to blame but themselves.

My wife is hotter than your wife.