England: Boy Scout Pocket Knives Banned

[JohnRich 4]

News:

Scouts to no longer bring penknives on camping trips

New advice published in Scouting, the official in-house magazine, says neither Scouts nor their parents should bring penknives to camp except in "specific" situations.

Scouts have traditionally been taught how to use knives correctly, using them on camping trips to cut firewood or carve tools.

Dave Budd, a knife-maker who runs courses training Scouts about the safe use of blades, wrote that the growing problem of knife crime meant action had to be taken.

"Sadly, there is now confusion about when a Scout is allowed to carry a knife," he wrote. "The series of high-profile fatal stabbings [has] highlighted a growing knife culture in the UK.

"I think it is safest to assume that knives of any sort should not be carried by anybody to a Scout meeting or camp, unless there is likely to be a specific need for one. In that case, they should be kept by the Scout leaders and handed out as required."

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6145785/Scouts-to-no-longer-bring-penknives-on-camping-trips.html

Isn't it sad that people think of an inanimate object like a pocket knife, and equate that to a violent illegal gang "knife culture", and then continue on to presume that anyone carrying one of these inanimate objects, even Boy Scouts, are now also part of that violent illegal gang knife culture that can't be trusted.

I guess they might as well abandon the Boy Scout motto: "Be prepared." They're no longer allowed to be prepared. Maybe they could change it to: "Be prepared to ask someone else for help when you need to do something with a pocket knife."

As for the Boy Scout oath:

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

I guess those don't count any more either. By gosh, they can't be trusted!

[nigel99 572]

As you have rightly pointed out a number of times in the past it is the culture that is floored. The problem is that once you have used the blunt instrument of the law to "fix" something it is next to impossible to reverse the decision.

I have a 9yr old son, and I do not know what the legal situation on him owning a knife is. I would happily give him a small swiss army knife and he may hurt himself slightly but I trust him to know right from wrong. As I don't know the situation and it is frowned on he won't get one. Perversely though being a boy and "needing" a knife I did discover a 12 inch butchers knife in the garden that had been "borrowed" from the kitchen to cut something

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[mnealtx 0]

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The problem is that once you have used the blunt instrument of the law to "fix" something it is next to impossible to reverse the decision.

Unfortunately, all too true - even IF meant with the best of intentions.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JackC 0]

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The problem is that once you have used the blunt instrument of the law to "fix" something it is next to impossible to reverse the decision.

Except that in this case, there is no law involved. It's just advice published in the in-house magazine of a private organisation. If you don't like it, leave; you're probably too old to be a scout anyway.

[wmw999 2,545]

I brought my scout knife to Girl Scout camp in the 7th grade, and was never allowed to use it. It was too dangerous.

This was in the USA, in the 1960's.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[nigel99 572]

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The problem is that once you have used the blunt instrument of the law to "fix" something it is next to impossible to reverse the decision.

Except that in this case, there is no law involved. It's just advice published in the in-house magazine of a private organisation. If you don't like it, leave; you're probably too old to be a scout anyway.

UK knife laws are quite restrictive and as I pointed out I am not entirely sure what is allowed. It sounds like the scouts have simply fallen foul of the same "confusion" that I have and it is safer for them to simply advise against it. If an outdoor organisation panders to heavily to H&S it deserves to fade away.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[nigel99 572]

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I brought my scout knife to Girl Scout camp in the 7th grade, and was never allowed to use it. It was too dangerous.

This was in the USA, in the 1960's.

Wendy P.

yes but you were a GIRL in the 60's - you were supposed to be in the kitchen

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[warpedskydiver 0]

I had a Ka-Bar.

I guess we got more leniency and trust.

[JackC 0]

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UK knife laws are quite restrictive and as I pointed out I am not entirely sure what is allowed.

"It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches." - Criminal Justice Act (1988) section 139(1)

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It sounds like the scouts have simply fallen foul of the same "confusion" that I have and it is safer for them to simply advise against it.

I doubt the scouts haven't fallen foul of anything. They were offering the same advice back in the 70s.

[wmw999 2,545]

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yes but you were a GIRL in the 60's - you were supposed to be in the kitchen

How can I make you a sammich if I don't have a knife?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mnealtx 0]

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UK knife laws are quite restrictive and as I pointed out I am not entirely sure what is allowed.

"It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches." - Criminal Justice Act (1988) section 139(1)

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It sounds like the scouts have simply fallen foul of the same "confusion" that I have and it is safer for them to simply advise against it.

I doubt the scouts haven't fallen foul of anything. They were offering the same advice back in the 70s.

Have there been any newer, more restrictive laws passed that they may be basing the policy on?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JackC 0]

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Have there been any newer, more restrictive laws passed that they may be basing the policy on?

No. Like I said, it's not a new policy, they've been doing it since at least the late 70s.

[nigel99 572]

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UK knife laws are quite restrictive and as I pointed out I am not entirely sure what is allowed.

"It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches." - Criminal Justice Act (1988) section 139(1)

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It sounds like the scouts have simply fallen foul of the same "confusion" that I have and it is safer for them to simply advise against it.

I doubt the scouts haven't fallen foul of anything. They were offering the same advice back in the 70s.

Yes I did 5 minutes of research before my post and read up, the problem is that there are also caveats like this

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Age Restriction
British law also covers age restriction on the sale of knives in the Criminal Justice Act 1998:

"It is an offence for any person to sell to a person under the age of 18 any knife, knife blade, razor blade, axe or any other article which has a blade or is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for causing injury to the person." [CJA 1988 section 141A]

British courts have in the past taken the marketing of a particular brand of knife into account when considering whether an otherwise legal folding knife was carried as an offensive weapon. A knife which is marketed as "tactical", "military", "special ops", etc could therefore carry an extra liability. The Knives Act 1997 now restricts the marketing of knives as offensive weapons and thus it is much more unlikely that such marketing could be used as evidence against a defendant.

In practice, this law makes it highly unlikely that most shops would sell a knife to someone younger than 18.

So pocket knife branding is taken into account. Superficially it doesn't look like the law has changed simply that the authorities have changed their interpretation. Not sure if you are a parent in the UK but certainly we find that parents are pretty anti knives. It doesn't help that for us "good" use of knives amongst teenagers is limited and actual knife crime is very high (a couple of high profile murders locally) so perhaps I am in a biased community.

Finally so I don't hijack the thread - I haven't been a scout and don't follow them so I had simply assumed this was a new drive.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[dreamdancer 0]

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The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) launched a campaign Tuesday to entice the blue, brown and green-clad multitudes to be even more prepared, with the promise of a new patch if they pitch in.

The young scouts will be able to emblazon their sashes or vests with the patch if they undergo the training which readies them for an emergency.

"This new preparedness patch will increase citizen preparedness and enhance our country's readiness for disasters," said DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano in a statement.

"As a former Girl Scout, I know the 'Be Prepared' motto well, and I look forward to working with the Girl Scouts to spread the preparedness message to all of our nation's citizens."

The move is part of a month-long government effort to make Americans better able to cope with natural and man-made disasters.

Napolitano has urged individuals, families and businesses to stock fresh water and food, and prepare an emergency plan -- to be enacted in the event of a disaster.

The unveiling of the patch marks a partnership between the scouts and Citizen Corps, a community-based initiative under the DHS's Federal Emergency Management Agency, which coordinates national response to disasters.

Girl Scouts of the USA chief executive Kathy Cloninger said the tie up with Citizen Corps "provides an opportunity for our girls to lead the way in ensuring that their families and their communities are prepared for emergencies."

http://www.alternet.org/rss/breaking_news/88712/us_girl_scouts_prepare_for_war%2C_pestilence/

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dks13827 3]

England has GUN CONTROL............ which fixes everything,,,,,,,,,,, no ??

[SpeedRacer 1]

my dad got me a Kamp King jackknife when I was about 7 or 8 years old. what's the big deal.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[kelpdiver 2]

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yes but you were a GIRL in the 60's - you were supposed to be in the kitchen

How can I make you a sammich if I don't have a knife?

That's why the Girl Scouts made cookies. No need for a knife.

[yoink 321]

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England has GUN CONTROL............ which fixes everything,,,,,,,,,,, no ??

It certainly cuts down on the incedental 'crime of passion' household murders.
Much harder to shoot someone you catch sleeping with your missus if you don't have a gun in the house.

As for the pocket knife rule, I've carried a Swiss Army knife in the UK for years, and I was a scout. The 3" law was also ammended to exclude any knife that had a butterfly or rocket action in the mid 90's IIRC.

I'm curious at what stage the 'freedom to do something' brigade here would actually step in.
There is a big significant rise in knife crime among British teenagers lately. Would you allow that to continue? How would you stop it, because that's the priority... ceasing the increase in deaths.

[quade 4]

And this is what happens when people blindly repeat crap and don't check their sources. People go fucknuts over nothing.

http://scouts.org.uk/news/223/scouting-refutes-knife-ban-claims

From the Scouting web site in the UK;

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Several incorrect stories have appeared in the media this week reporting a knife ban in Scouting.

In fact, Scouting's rules on the subject have not significantly changed since the late 1960s.

Knives may still be used by young people and adults during supervised camps and other outdoor activities.

Scouting encourages young people to learn to respect knives, and use them sensibly to learn outdoor skills such as fire lighting, shelter building and backwoods cooking

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rhaig 0]

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I brought my scout knife to Girl Scout camp in the 7th grade, and was never allowed to use it. It was too dangerous.

This was in the USA, in the 1960's.

Wendy P.

GSUSA has always been over protective on outdoor activities, and as of late is removing outdoor activities from many of it's requirements. As a result, many units have zero outdoor activities on there activities schedule.

My daughter (6) is in daisies, and keeps asking about camping. Her leader said "maybe you can do that when you get older". I did some looking and found (so far) 2 (of 12 investigated) units (I forget what they're called for 11-13yo girls) that go camping more than twice a year. (by camping I mean in tents, not cabins)

My daughter now wants to join boy scouts when she turns 14 (venture scouts are co-ed) and I told her I'll try to make sure she knows as much or more than any boy in the crew.

--
Rob

[skybill 22]

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my dad got me a Kamp King jackknife when I was about 7 or 8 years old. what's the big deal.

Hi Speedie!!,
Lo and behold, the "Kamp King" jackknife!! Let me guess, it had the main blade, a bottle opener/screw driver pry, a can opener and a awl/punch!! I think thet were about $1.98 when I was a kid. 'Had several. Also, Kamp King had a matching sheath knife (6" blade) and a hatchet. Good stuff. And, don't forget the classic "Barlow!"

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[JohnRich 4]

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There is a big significant rise in knife crime among British teenagers lately. Would you allow that to continue?

Are those knife crimes being committed by Boy Scouts? While camping in the woods?

How do you feel about the entire citizenry being treated like untrustworthy criminals, even though they aren't the problem?

[quade 4]

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How do you feel about the entire citizenry being treated like untrustworthy criminals, even though they aren't the problem?

Well, that's what happens when people over react. Sometimes they just look like idiots.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JackC 0]

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How do you feel about the entire citizenry being treated like untrustworthy criminals, even though they aren't the problem?

Really, there has been no change. You are getting bent out of shape over advice published within a private organisation, advice that hasn't changed in 50 years, about laws that haven't changed in 20 years, all of which occurred on a small island over 3000 miles away from you. This really is a pathetic rant, even for you.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I brought my scout knife to Girl Scout camp in the 7th grade, and was never allowed to use it. It was too dangerous.

This was in the USA, in the 1960's.

Wendy P.

Too dangerous for a girl enrolled in Future Home Makers of America.

In the 1980s for my Wilderness Survival merit badge the Boy Scouts (aka Future Conscripts of America) sent me into the forest with a knife to build a shelter to sleep in.