I Suppose We Should Thank Joe Wilson

[rushmc 23]

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> For private insurers its about .05%

And yet we pay far more for healthcare than any other country on the planet. Most of your healthcare dollar goes to paying endless layers of bureaucracy because there is no incentive to make it any more efficient.

>Government control is very expensive.

Yep. The only thing that's more expensive is no government control.

Because it is the best health care system on the planet.

Whenever I hear that statement I think of this.

Then you are more enlightened that you realize

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[marks2065 0]

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When do you expect illegal aliens to be excluded in medical care.

At an accident site?
At the door of the ER?
During the talk about insurance?
After the patient has been seen, but before they've paid?

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how about before they are injured. at the border before they get in the US. at the job site to be deported, or even when they leave jail. It is hard to get free medical if they are sent home when discovered. even in the hospital, stabilize them and ship them home.

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[rehmwa 2]

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In your experience...how many wrongs make a right?
_____________________________________

Not relevant, since health care is not a "wrong".

Nor is it a right

but it is three lefts

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,998]

>Because it is the best health care system on the planet.

Not by any ranking system I've ever seen. We don't live as long, our kids die more often, we have more chronic disease and spend more time out sick than many other countries.

[wmw999 2,452]

It's very fair to say that we have some of (if not a preponderance of) the best doctors on the planet. But if only a few people can afford to see them, then the system isn't very good.

Is a medical system defined by its best examples, or by the average?

If by the best, then should American schools also be defined by the best examples? That would make the US educational system one of the best on the planet as well.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mnealtx 0]

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>Because it is the best health care system on the planet.

Not by any ranking system I've ever seen.

Then maybe you should look at the 'responsiveness' column of the WHO report - you know, the column that shows how well the medical community does it's job?

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We don't live as long, our kids die more often, we have more chronic disease and spend more time out sick than many other countries

Let's get the rest of the world using the same criteria for infant mortality and we'll talk. As for most of the rest of it, choosing to eat junk food and not exercise isn't a medical treatment decision.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,998]

>As for most of the rest of it, choosing to eat junk food and not exercise
>isn't a medical treatment decision.

If you get a chance check out the Atlantic article on health care someone posted. There's a good discussion of this.

[rickjump1 0]

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I need the rolling eyes to reply to you but, since there is not one here I will laugh

So you and Turtle have copies of secret plans to provide health care to illegal aliens, but you can't reveal these to the rest of us?

ACORN?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[mnealtx 0]

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>As for most of the rest of it, choosing to eat junk food and not exercise
>isn't a medical treatment decision.

If you get a chance check out the Atlantic article on health care someone posted. There's a good discussion of this.

I'm not able to bring up his link - goes to a 400 error.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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>Because it is the best health care system on the planet.

Not by any ranking system I've ever seen.

Then maybe you should look at the 'responsiveness' column of the WHO report - you know, the column that shows how well the medical community does it's job?

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We don't live as long, our kids die more often, we have more chronic disease and spend more time out sick than many other countries

Let's get the rest of the world using the same criteria for infant mortality and we'll talk. As for most of the rest of it, choosing to eat junk food and not exercise isn't a medical treatment decision.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/opinion/12sun1.html

Many Americans are under the delusion that we have “the best health care system in the world,” as President Bush sees it, or provide the “best medical care in the world,” as Rudolph Giuliani declared last week. That may be true at many top medical centers. But the disturbing truth is that this country lags well behind other advanced nations in delivering timely and effective care.

1. Seven years ago, the World Health Organization made the first major effort to rank the health systems of 191 nations. France and Italy took the top two spots; the United States was a dismal 37th.

2. Its latest report, issued in May, ranked the United States last or next-to-last compared with five other nations — Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and the United Kingdom — on most measures of performance, including quality of care and access to it. Other comparative studies also put the United States in a relatively bad light.

3. The United States, to its shame, has some 45 million people without health insurance and many more millions who have poor coverage.

4. Americans typically get prompter attention, although Germany does better. The real barriers here are the costs facing low-income people without insurance or with skimpy coverage.

5. The United States ranks dead last on almost all measures of equity because we have the greatest disparity in the quality of care given to richer and poorer citizens.

6. We have known for years that America has a high infant mortality rate, so it is no surprise that we rank last among 23 nations by that yardstick. But the problem is much broader.

The good news is that we have done a better job than other industrialized nations in reducing smoking. The bad news is that our obesity epidemic is the worst in the world.

so we quit smokikng better but are fatter, so that's a bit of a wash with life expectancy.

7. But we scored poorly in coordinating the care of chronically ill patients, in protecting the safety of patients, and in meeting their needs and preferences, which drove our overall quality rating down to last place. American doctors and hospitals kill patients through surgical and medical mistakes more often than their counterparts in other industrialized nations.

8. Despite the declarations of their political leaders, many Americans hold surprisingly negative views of their health care system. Polls in Europe and North America seven to nine years ago found that only 40 percent of Americans were satisfied with the nation’s health care system, placing us 14th out of 17 countries.


So that explains it quite well. I would summarize it like the rest of the US, if you have a lot of money, it's the sebt country in the world, if you have no money, it's one of the worst places. It's much better to be poor in Canada or Western Europe.

As for personal health, that's at the individual level, the government can't really be praised or punnished for that, just adjudged on their response medically.

[rushmc 23]

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>Because it is the best health care system on the planet.

Not by any ranking system I've ever seen. We don't live as long, our kids die more often, we have more chronic disease and spend more time out sick than many other countries.

Those "ranking" systems have been discussed here at length. You need to catch up.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[marks2065 0]

so we are in the top 20% with our lifestyle? sounds good to me. let those other countries convert to our lifestyle and then see how they rate. we overeat, over drink, over smoke, jump out of planes, clime rocks, drive cars that are just wanting to crash, we probably have the most destructive lifestyle in the world and we still almost match up with others. I think we are doing pretty good.

[rickjump1 0]

As to number 6, high infant mortality rate, I think a lot of the mothers having babies in this country are unfit and are just short of murdering their newborns. My daughter takes care of newborns having problems. A number of mothers never return to the hospital to visit their newborn. Typically, they only return when the infant is cleared to go home. Nobody holds these babies except the nurses, and nobody buys clothes for these babies except the nurses. Some babies leave the hospital only to die because of parent failure. Oh, I forgot. These babies, for the most part, are delivered at no cost to the parents.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[TomAiello 26]

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Not by any ranking system I've ever seen. We don't live as long, our kids die more often, we have more chronic disease and spend more time out sick than many other countries.

None of those are measures of healthcare. They're measures of lifestyle choice.

Americans have very unhealthy lifestyles. We eat a lot of crap (and I mean a lot). We engage in more risky recreation (ATV's and snowmobiles are pretty much tools outside of North America). We have laxer car seat standards.

None of those things are part of the healthcare system, and none of them reflect (positive or negative) on it. But they drive some of the variables you're referring to.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[billvon 2,998]

>None of those are measures of healthcare. They're measures of lifestyle choice.

They are measures of both, actually, since quite a few of those deaths are in hospitals. But I agree that lifestyle choice has a lot to do with it.

[TomAiello 26]

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>None of those are measures of healthcare. They're measures of lifestyle choice.

They are measures of both, actually, since quite a few of those deaths are in hospitals.

When a crash victim is taken to a hospital and dies there despite the best efforts of the staff, it does not reflect on the hospitals quality of care. If you could show that crash victims in one place are more likely to die than in another place, that would say something about care. Saying that one place has more crash deaths, though, mostly just shows that it has more crashes.

Regardless of the underlying cause, most people will die in a hospital. In fact, most of them will die in bed. This does not mean that beds in the USA are inherently more dangerous than beds anywhere else in the world.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Lucky... 0]

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so we are in the top 20% with our lifestyle? sounds good to me. let those other countries convert to our lifestyle and then see how they rate. we overeat, over drink, over smoke, jump out of planes, clime rocks, drive cars that are just wanting to crash, we probably have the most destructive lifestyle in the world and we still almost match up with others. I think we are doing pretty good.

Except when it comes to humanity like ensuring all have some kind of basic healthcare, then we're last or near last. A great country if you have a lot of money, no argument.

[Lucky... 0]

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As to number 6, high infant mortality rate, I think a lot of the mothers having babies in this country are unfit and are just short of murdering their newborns. My daughter takes care of newborns having problems. A number of mothers never return to the hospital to visit their newborn. Typically, they only return when the infant is cleared to go home. Nobody holds these babies except the nurses, and nobody buys clothes for these babies except the nurses. Some babies leave the hospital only to die because of parent failure. Oh, I forgot. These babies, for the most part, are delivered at no cost to the parents.

And that could be a byproduct of our gross classism; young intercity girls from poor homes make crappy mothers. If our social system was better they might make better mothers knowing they could rely on the gubbement.

We can both conjecture, but even if we weren't bad at that, we have a myriad of other things we do poorly.

[rickjump1 0]

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As to number 6, high infant mortality rate, I think a lot of the mothers having babies in this country are unfit and are just short of murdering their newborns. My daughter takes care of newborns having problems. A number of mothers never return to the hospital to visit their newborn. Typically, they only return when the infant is cleared to go home. Nobody holds these babies except the nurses, and nobody buys clothes for these babies except the nurses. Some babies leave the hospital only to die because of parent failure. Oh, I forgot. These babies, for the most part, are delivered at no cost to the parents.

And that could be a byproduct of our gross classism; young intercity girls from poor homes make crappy mothers. If our social system was better they might make better mothers knowing they could rely on the gubbement.

We can both conjecture, but even if we weren't bad at that, we have a myriad of other things we do poorly.

The poor girls get the basic healthcare you are talking about, and part of the "myriad of other things we do poorly": entitlements.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[likearock 2]

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> For private insurers its about .05%

And yet we pay far more for healthcare than any other country on the planet. Most of your healthcare dollar goes to paying endless layers of bureaucracy because there is no incentive to make it any more efficient.

>Government control is very expensive.

Yep. The only thing that's more expensive is no government control.

Because it is the best health care system on the planet.

Whenever I hear that statement I think of this.

Then you are more enlightened that you realize

Thank you!

I wonder, though, if you watched the whole video to the end...

[riddler 0]

And now, the House has officially admonished Wilson. I'm not even sure what that means, but I doubt it means anything. But it seems significant for two reasons:

1. It's the first time in the history of the House (according to CNN) that this has been done.
2. It's clear that party politics have dug in, and we can expect all future votes to be D vs. R.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[rushmc 23]

Sticking by your principles is something today's left has forgotten.

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/us_health_care_heckling/2009/09/15/260515.html

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[dsandreas 0]

Anyone who believes the rankings from the liberal bureaucrats at the WHO is brain dead. Their rankings are meaningless.

There is no more reason to have government run health care than there is to have government run grocery stores to provide us all food so that nobody is hungry.

The system can be/should be improved. Having the government run health care is an idiotic/simpleton solution that will make it worse.

[justinb138 0]

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And now, the House has officially admonished Wilson. I'm not even sure what that means, but I doubt it means anything. But it seems significant for two reasons:

1. It's the first time in the history of the House (according to CNN) that this has been done.
2. It's clear that party politics have dug in, and we can expect all future votes to be D vs. R.

And it's pretty clear some of the House members wanted to turn it into a race issue when there's no evidence that it is one.

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A leading member of the Congressional Black Caucus, Clyburn perceived it as a snub that Wilson held a town hall meeting on health care this summer at a school in Clyburn's district _ where Clyburn's children attended _ without telling Clyburn.

There also have been suggestions that recent harsh criticism of Obama has been at least partly motivated by race. Rep. Barbara Lee, D-Calif., current head of the Congressional Black Caucus, said that "today is about the civility and decorum of the House." But she added that we "can't sweep race under the rug _ racism is still a factor and must be addressed."

[JohnDeere 0]

Ahh the race card..... The race card is mostly used to argue a point that someone cant win. That and spelling

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!