The hypocrisy of tea party conservatives

[funjumper101 15]

Kallend posted the link to this. The content is sure to piss off the righies, as the facts presented are indisputable.

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The Tea Party Express has hit Washington and while there are many sincere people involved in the Tea Party protests and they have valid points to make about government spending, the entire movement is stained by the fact that its organized by conservatives who are the ones responsible for the mess in the first place and who haven't to this day, taken responsibility for their own mistakes and the economic mess they created by letting George W Bush get away with his disastrous policies.

The problem for the sincere Tea Party protesters is the entire movement is conservative organized which. unfortunately completely undermines iits credibility.

It was the conservatives who, after 8 years of the greatest economic expansion in history during the Clinton years, came to power and intentionally undid everything Clinton did, reversing all of Clinton's policies. And anyone with half a brain knows that if you do the opposite of anything you will get the opposite results. And that's what the Republicans did. And that's what the country got. Now the conservatives are shaking their baby rattles and complaining.

It was a conservative Republican administration and a conservative Republican congress who blew a $5 1/2 trillion budget surplus. They destroyed the balanced budget they inherited, and after Clinton had eliminated the deficit, they exploded the deficit to record levels with their war and tax policies.

It was a conservative Republican government that took the country from the greatest economic expansion in history, lowest unemployment in 40 years, a balanced budget and record surpluses to deficits, unemployment and the greatest economic crisis since the 1930's.

So during these Tea Party protests conservatives are showing why the word "hypocrite" should be part of the dictionary definition of conservative.

They said nothing and did nothing while Bush and the Republican congress were getting the country into deeper and deeper trouble. The conservatives who organize the Tea Party protests sat on their hands and did nothing. They did nothing when the balanced budget was destroyed, nothing when Bush exploded the deficit, nothing when Bush cut taxes instead of raising them to pay for the war he started.

This means that nothing the conservative organizers have to say can or should be taken seriously or be seen as anything other than cheap partisan politics. And that is too bad since there are legitimate issues to be dealt with. And while not everyone who is protesting is a conservative, the protests bear the conservative stamp. And that is the Kiss of Death. Because conservatives forfeited their right to be taken seriously by playing Hear No Evil ,See No Evil ,Speak No Evil during 8 years of the disastrous Bush Administration.

They proved there are no real principles behind the organizing of these protests even if some of the people who join them do so out of principle. But for the organizers its only a lust for power and their motivation is politics.

When Bush became the first President in history to take the country to war and cut taxes at the same time they said nothing. They just happily took their tax cuts, supported the unnecessary war in Iraq and were happy not to pay for it and pass the cost along. Exactly what they are complaining about now. They simply don't want to pay for their mistakes. But they will, like it or not. Which is why the Tea Party protests from conservatives have not so much to do with tea but with whine.

If the legitimate Tea Party protestors want to be taken seriously they are going to have to split from the conservative Republican organizers of the movement who have no credibility. As long as the Tea Party protests are conservative organized and motivated they will never be taken seriously by the only people in congress who matter -- the Democrats who control both houses.

The Tea Party conservatives not only don't want to pay for their mistakes they don't want to admit they even made mistakes while Bush and the Republicans ran the country's economy into the ground. Instead they want to blame the current president and the current congress.

It isn't a coincidence that now that the Democrats are in power these fiscally concerned conservatives have suddenly found their voice.

The honest Tea Party protestors will need to divorce themselves from any affiliation with Republicans or conservatives, the people who created the problem in the first place and did nothing, if they want to be taken seriously.. Otherwise the only thing these protesters can expect in the end is a lot of tea but no sympathy.

[airdvr 210]

The problem for the sincere Tea Party protesters is the entire movement is conservative organized which. unfortunately completely undermines iits credibility.

Read enough. Not fact...just opinion.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Lucky... 0]

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The problem for the sincere Tea Party protesters is the entire movement is conservative organized which. unfortunately completely undermines iits credibility.

Read enough. Not fact...just opinion.

The inference would be that the conservatives have been most of the economic problem, but I agree it is a bit of an ad hominem, they should have stated more explicitly it is the Republicans, whoc have been spenders.

[kallend 2,032]

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The problem for the sincere Tea Party protesters is the entire movement is conservative organized which. unfortunately completely undermines iits credibility.

Read enough. Not fact...just opinion.

Don't like to hear contrary opinions, do you?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TomAiello 26]

The underlying point seems to be that these folks were complicit in previous government actions. The problem is that most of the "tea party" folks are actually totally new to political action. Most of them haven't even really been politically aware before.

It's not hypocrisy that they haven't spoken out before. It's a bit silly that they weren't paying attention already, but it's not hypocrisy.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[airdvr 210]

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The problem for the sincere Tea Party protesters is the entire movement is conservative organized which. unfortunately completely undermines iits credibility.

Read enough. Not fact...just opinion.

Don't like to hear contrary opinions, do you?

Contrary opinions with a factual basis...no problem...not re-writing history to fit their POV.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[funjumper101 15]

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The problem for the sincere Tea Party protesters is the entire movement is conservative organized which. unfortunately completely undermines iits credibility.

Read enough. Not fact...just opinion.

Your comprehension of the issue at hand would be greatly improved if you actually read the whole article and thought carefully about the content.

That would, of course, require that you might be open to other interpretations of the FACTS that are outlined in the article.

The facts are there. Feel free to question the conclusions of the writer.
The FACTS are indisputable.

[TomAiello 26]

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...the entire movement is conservative organized...

Read enough. Not fact...just opinion.

The facts are there. Feel free to question the conclusions of the writer.
The FACTS are indisputable.

The italicized statement, which appears to be stated as a fact, is actually pretty disputable. Further, even if the organizers were previously involved, that fails to show that the actual participants were.

My, equally disputable, statement, is that I think the majority of those involved have not been involved in politics prior to this point. I believe that simple fact (which you are welcome to dispute) undermines the entire thrust of the article.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[lawrocket 3]

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the entire movement is stained by the fact that its organized by conservatives who are the [I]ones responsible for the mess in the first place

Indeed. The ones responsible. Liberals have zero blame at all.

[Reply] and who haven't to this day, taken responsibility for their own mistakes

[TomAiello 26]

Interesting coverage of the 9/12 DC event here.

An excerpt that relates to this thread:

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Of the people I ended up talking to, the general vibe was that they were conservative, and then either Republican, formerly Republican, or independent. Every single one had unkind words to say about George W. Bush's spending and governing record, though none had protested him.

There's also an interesting photo of the crowd, which appears to number well more than the "tens of thousands" reported on CNN.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[funjumper101 15]

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...the entire movement is conservative organized...

Read enough. Not fact...just opinion.

The facts are there. Feel free to question the conclusions of the writer.
The FACTS are indisputable.

The italicized statement, which appears to be stated as a fact, is actually pretty disputable. Further, even if the organizers were previously involved, that fails to show that the actual participants were.

My, equally disputable, statement, is that I think the majority of those involved have not been involved in politics prior to this point. I believe that simple fact (which you are welcome to dispute) undermines the entire thrust of the article.

I would be happy to read any cites or postings that identify anyone but Consevative organizers for the tea parties and the 9 12 hate filled racists. Glenn Beck is not at all a Progressive. Take a careful look at the NARLO web site for an example of the calber of people supporting the 9 12 douchebags. Advocating the violent overthow of the US government is not OK by me. It apparently is OK by you, and the folks who showed up.

If you show up for an event, you have a responsibility to educate yourself as to who exactly is involved in organizing it. If you fail to educate yourself, be prepared to be held accountable for your support of hatred for the USA and its government.

The fact that senior Republican leadership of the House, and the Senate, spoke at these events yesterday, is nauseating to real patriots. It makes completely clear that the Republican party has been taken over by the lunatic fringe.

[rushmc 23]

Show me evidence of "hate filled racist" please.

I am very confident you will not respond cause you are the one filled with disdain and hate for those with whom disagree as evidenced in the posts you have made lately.

But, I will wait and see.

Oh, and don't go to some off the wall web site. that shit is out there on both sides. Find, if you can, some main steam hate filled racist shit you claim here.

You have been called out if you are having a hard time figuring that out

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Who are you? Where do you live? (generally) Why are you afraid to fill out the site profile? What industry do you make your money in?

Your comment are easy when you hide as you do?

Want my name, phone number and address? I will give them to you online here. You ain't got the guts to do that do you!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[TomAiello 26]

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Glenn Beck is not at all a Progressive.

???

I'm not sure what that's got to do with anything.

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I would be happy to read any cites or postings that identify anyone but Conservative organizers for the tea parties and the 9 12 hate filled racists.

Can you explain what makes you think these are "hate filled racists"? Have you been to any of the events, and talked with people there about their views (racial or otherwise)?

I'm pretty sure I'm not a hate filled racist. But maybe you can educate me a little on what you mean by that.

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If you show up for an event, you have a responsibility to educate yourself as to who exactly is involved in organizing it.

Sure. I went to the event in DC. I educated myself on who was leading it, prior to attending. Here's a list of speakers. In particular, I was interested in hearing Bob Levy (which I did), Dick Armey (missed him as I was getting lunch) and Jim DeMint (I did get to hear him speak). I don't think any of them is a "hate filled racist."

In general terms, the single person I'd point to as the "headline" organizer of the event was Dick Armey. If you're saying that he's a "hate filled racist" I think I'm just going to have to disagree and leave it at that.

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The fact that senior Republican leadership of the House, and the Senate, spoke at these events yesterday, is nauseating to real patriots. It makes completely clear that the Republican party has been taken over by the lunatic fringe.

???

Again, I'm not clear on how any of that follows. Are you saying that the people at these events were the "lunatic fringe"? Please explain.


You seem very paranoid that these grass roots events are somehow filled with racist lunatics. Let me assure you, from personally attending one, that this is not the case. However, if you want to purchase a tin foil hat, I did see a rather witty gentleman selling them on the capitol mall yesterday.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[kallend 2,032]

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An excerpt that relates to this thread:

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Of the people I ended up talking to, the general vibe was that they were conservative, and then either Republican, formerly Republican, or independent. Every single one had unkind words to say about George W. Bush's spending and governing record, though none had protested him.

.

There's your hypocrisy, QED.

Just the same as we see right here in this forum. Folks who sat on their hands when Bush was prez, but suddenly find fiscal responsibility when a Dem is in the White House.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

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anyone but Consevative organizers for the tea parties and the 9 12 hate filled racists.

So - tax objections and deficit objections are racist now.

You are calling me a racist. Trust me - I have deep seated issues with such personal attacks.

[Reply] Glenn Beck is not at all a Progressive.

[TomAiello 26]

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An excerpt that relates to this thread:

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Of the people I ended up talking to, the general vibe was that they were conservative, and then either Republican, formerly Republican, or independent. Every single one had unkind words to say about George W. Bush's spending and governing record, though none had protested him.

.

There's your hypocrisy, QED.

Just the same as we see right here in this forum. Folks who sat on their hands when Bush was prez, but suddenly find fiscal responsibility when a Dem is in the White House.

If I didn't like something, but failed to take action, that makes me a hypocrite? People fail to act all the time. That doesn't mean they aren't concerned. It certainly doesn't make them hypocrites.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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[Reply] Glenn Beck is not at all a Progressive.

Why does his name get brought up all the time? I'm gonna have to check this guy out sometimes.

[kallend 2,032]

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An excerpt that relates to this thread:

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Of the people I ended up talking to, the general vibe was that they were conservative, and then either Republican, formerly Republican, or independent. Every single one had unkind words to say about George W. Bush's spending and governing record, though none had protested him.

.

There's your hypocrisy, QED.

Just the same as we see right here in this forum. Folks who sat on their hands when Bush was prez, but suddenly find fiscal responsibility when a Dem is in the White House.

If I didn't like something, but failed to take action, that makes me a hypocrite? People fail to act all the time. That doesn't mean they aren't concerned. It certainly doesn't make them hypocrites.

I realize you need a simple explanation as previously requested, but this is about having a double standard wrt TAKING ACTION. They gave Bush pass according to your quote, but now the other side is in power they're demonstrating.


And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

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An excerpt that relates to this thread:

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Of the people I ended up talking to, the general vibe was that they were conservative, and then either Republican, formerly Republican, or independent. Every single one had unkind words to say about George W. Bush's spending and governing record, though none had protested him.

.

There's your hypocrisy, QED.

Just the same as we see right here in this forum. Folks who sat on their hands when Bush was prez, but suddenly find fiscal responsibility when a Dem is in the White House.

Yep. I got drunk once. I had friends who would get drunk, too. I didn't protest. I had a friend that was an alcoholic. He told me I was a hypoxrite because I drink beer 3-4 nights per week.

Sure, I've never been drunk since I knew him and he'd go through a box of wine per night.

I guess he had me. I saw the log in his eye without noticing the sliver in mine. My hypocricy knew no bounds. For I knew then there was no difference between a six pack in a week and a case per day.

I begged his forgiveness. He burst esophageal varices without ever forgiving me. I'd like to think that I can avoid burning in hell for that.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[TomAiello 26]

I'm pretty sure that hypocrisy is when you criticize someone else for doing something, and then do it yourself (or vice versa).

So, for example, if, during the Bush administration, I was busy having a couple kids and running a business, and didn't find time to travel to DC for a rally against things I didn't like, but now I do, that's hardly hypocritical.

Hypocrisy would be if, for example, I criticized the US habit of invading random third world nations to distract from domestic problems, and then, once I was elected President, I ramped up yet another occupation of a third world country, to distract from domestic problems.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[kallend 2,032]

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I'm pretty sure that hypocrisy is when you criticize someone else for doing something, and then do it yourself (or vice versa).

So, for example, if, during the Bush administration, I was busy having a couple kids and running a business, and didn't find time to travel to DC for a rally against things I didn't like, but now I do, that's hardly hypocritical.

Hypocrisy would be if, for example, I criticized the US habit of invading random third world nations to distract from domestic problems, and then, once I was elected President, I ramped up yet another occupation of a third world country, to distract from domestic problems.

St. Matthew's description is more accurate.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,032]

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I'd like to think that I can avoid burning in hell for that.

No chance, you're a lawyer.

BTW you analogy is lousy. The correct analogy would be that you gave your drunken friend a pass and twice voted for him for class president, but became outraged when a guy you don't like had a few.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lucky... 0]

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Indeed. The ones responsible. Liberals have zero blame at all.

Certainly not 100-0, but 80-20 wouldn't be unfair.

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This is true. Conservatives and liberals are BOTH to blame, though.

In the last 100 years, Dems have mostly been positive for the economic shape of this nation. OTOH, Republiucans, especially Hoover, Reagan and GWB have been detrimental.

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Okay. I'm listening. Which policies? I don't disagree, just tell me what you're talking about.

1. Iraq War spending - $800B at GWB's departure
2. Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Growth_and_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2001

3. Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_and_Growth_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2003

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I seem to recall 6 or maybe 7 years of it. Does "dot bomb" ring a bell?

Do you really think Reagan or GWb wouldn't have found a way to louse up the great economic success the Dot.com era brought us? Besides, Clinton was on the right track with tax increases before the Dot.com boost hit.

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In fact, I can list "Gramm-Leach-Bliley" which was signed by Clinton, as the cause of the massive economic growth and collapse that happened. In Bush years.

Bush didn't reverse this policy. He took it and ran with it.

Certainly a bad act of that allowed consolidation and other things, but the ills of that bipartisan act wouldn't have been realized unless GWB and Greenspan didn't lower the interest rates so low - so long; that's what made the ills of this act felt - it was the catylist.

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Yes. The "recession" that Bush inherited needed some action.

This is where you're wrong, a recession is 2 consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth, there were not 2 quarters of - GDP in or shortly after the Clinton presidency.

http://www.bea.gov/briefrm/gdp.htm

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FUNJUMPER: and after Clinton had eliminated the deficit,

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Um - Congress did that.

Yes and no. The Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990. Basically the GHWB tx increase that cost Bush the election in 92 and paved the way for Clinton to have fiscal success. It was writen by all-Dem Congress and signed by GHWB.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Budget_Reconciliation_Act_of_1990

Oh, the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993 that was packed with major tax increase on the rich, writtena nd passed by an-Dem Congress and signed by Clinton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Budget_Reconciliation_Act_of_1993

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FUNJUMPER:So during these Tea Party protests conservatives are showing why the word "hypocrite" should be part of the dictionary definition of conservative.

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Okay. I get it. They have no point to make. They are simply hypocrites.

No, just their point carries no weight considering they are the party of big spending and tax cuts for the rich. It's like Dahmer crying about all of this homosexuality and all of these homicides are going to ruin society.

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FUNJUMPER: they exploded the deficit to record levels with their war and tax policies.

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Yes. True. Their records are now shattered.

By whom? The Dems for wanting health coverage? Or the economic mess we have that Obama inherited and the costs associated? The debt virtually wholy attributable to Reagan and GWB considering 2/3 of it has occurred undewr the last 3 Repub presidents and now if we look further we see that Clinton's fisccal numbers went toward recovery every year he was in office, so how is that debt increase attributable to him?

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FUNJUMPER: It was a conservative Republican government that took the country from the greatest economic expansion in history, lowest unemployment in 40 years, a balanced budget and record surpluses to deficits, unemployment and the greatest economic crisis since the 1930's.

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I blame Gramm-Leach-Bliley. I also blame "market correction." Said growth was unsustainable.

Of course you do, you credit Clinton for nothing. And what's to say this mess wouldn't have been created without Gramm-Leach-Bliley, a bipartisan bill that had the numbers to easily survive a presidential veto? That measure was systemic, just as NAFTA was and other things. It seems taxation and military spending are the wildcards and they are very partisan attributes.

This mess would still have happened without Gramm-Leach-Bliley, the enormous tax cuts neccessitated lowering the interest rates to stimulate the economy, then then kept lowering and stayed low for long periods which then sellers maintained their house prices, shifting the lower interest to higher principal prices and the ponzi scheme was off and running, would have occurred easily without Gramm-Leach-Bliley.

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FUNJUMPER: to pay for the war he started.

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The war spending is minor compared to other stuff.

Definately true, the war was at 800B when GWB left which is 16% of the total 5T he bumped the debt by.

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FUNJUMPER: This means that nothing the conservative organizers have to say can or should be taken seriously or be seen as anything other than cheap partisan politics.

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Right. Don't discuss the point. Attack the person. Yeah, that's the non-partisan way. I see.

I agree that ad hominems are not constructive, but what he's saying is that the same people who were all over loving Bush are now crying about every dime the Dems appropriate. Again, Dahmer saying, 'These homicides are out of control.' As a generalization, the neo-Repubs are for big and wasteful military spending, social cuts and huge tax cuts for rich. There are bright spots like GHWB and others, but generally not.

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And that is the Kiss of Death. Because conservatives forfeited their right to be taken seriously by playing Hear No Evil ,See No Evil ,Speak No Evil during 8 years of the disastrous Bush Administration.

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No. There were TWO years of disaster. Clinton was a good president AFTER the disaster of his first 2 years.

What disaster of his first 2 years? The 1993 Omnibus Bill that raised taxes? Not sure what you're talking about. As well, we had just come out of a recession, but still, all numbers were improving.

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FUNJUMPER: When Bush became the first President in history to take the country to war and cut taxes at the same time they said nothing.

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I thought Clinton did it. Oh. Those were "operations other than war."

More Clinton hate? I thought we weren't about ad hominem. Whatever meaningless operations Clinton had were nothing as compared to the Iraq War. Furthermore, your point makes no sense in that Clinton didn't cut taxes, remember the 1993 Omnibus Bill we talked about?

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FUNJUMPER: They just happily took their tax cuts, supported the unnecessary war in Iraq and were happy not to pay for it and pass the cost along.

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Familiar story. See Medicare, Social Security, etc. True budget monsters.

From tax cuts and war to social benefits, esp for the elderly; tangent time?

Applauding tax cuts that blow up the debt, ignoring the wasteful Iraq War and demonizing social benefits for largely the elderly are hardly on the same plane. Are you suggesting we throw the disabled and seniors out on their asses?

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FUNJUMPER: Exactly what they are complaining about now.

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Trillion dollar deficits. And proposing to addi goliath new programs. How's that?

So we can come up to par with the rest of civilized countries and everyone getting medical care. As well we should cut our military budget in half so that way we only spend 4 times that of #2. It's about becoming a more 'normal' country and quit pandering to our elite as Commnist countries do.

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FUNJUMPER: Instead they want to blame the current president and the current congress.

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No. They are asking the current admin and congress to stop spending and spending like they are trying to show up Bush - "we can create higher deficits that you, Bush! We'll double federal debt in less than a decade! Beat that!"

Most of what Obama has spent so far is for the recovery of the mess he inherited. 1T over 10 years for uni-care is nothing considering we've spent that much in 5 years to kill 4k heroes.

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FUNJUMPER: It isn't a coincidence that now that the Democrats are in power these fiscally concerned conservatives have suddenly found their voice.

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Nope. And a tacit admission that Dems are not fiscally concerned - unless they are not declaring taxable income.

More ad hominem? Evidence that the Dems are fiscally concerned is found with the performance of Clinton, the only dem in 28 years of Republican president who hammered the debt.

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FUNJUMPER: Otherwise the only thing these protesters can expect in the end is a lot of tea but no sympathy.

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They don't want sympathy, pinko.

From ad hominem to PA. What these protestors want is uncivilized mutiny, similar to what we saw in the Civil War from the Confederate States. As a lawyer you must find their outbursts unconscionable, I'm sure you would never behave that way in court, nor would any civilized person.

[dsandreas 0]

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An excerpt that relates to this thread:


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Of the people I ended up talking to, the general vibe was that they were conservative, and then either Republican, formerly Republican, or independent. Every single one had unkind words to say about George W. Bush's spending and governing record, though none had protested him.

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There's your hypocrisy, QED.

Just the same as we see right here in this forum. Folks who sat on their hands when Bush was prez, but suddenly find fiscal responsibility when a Dem is in the White House.
_______________________________________________

Ever hear of tipping point....or 100th monkey theory? Doesn't mean people didn't care before...it just took time (and actions) to create the tipping point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_Monkey

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