billvon 2,997 #101 September 29, 2009 >Good to see you still favor taking away citizens rights when they have >done nothing wrong. Yep. You favor it as well (as you admitted above.) >Good to see that you think a gun will kill on its own so it must be >prevented from being in some areas... Never said that. You said you had no problem banning people with guns from certain areas (like your home) and I agreed that that was a valid thing to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #102 September 29, 2009 Nice try Bill. You favor punishing law abiding citizens from their rights in public places. Care to stick to the topic with lame strawmen? Yes, you have the right to prevent a person from doing almost anything in your home... But we are not talking about private property. Care to try to stay on task?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #103 September 29, 2009 How is Amtrak a public place? How is a mall public place? How is a college public space? Weren't those the areas we were talking about? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,997 #104 September 29, 2009 OK. Then I will ask you directly and see if you can answer without all the dancing and weaving: Should YOU be able to ban guns (or, if you prefer, ban people who carry them) from your home? How about your place of business? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #105 September 29, 2009 QuoteOK. Then I will ask you directly and see if you can answer without all the dancing and weaving: Should YOU be able to ban guns (or, if you prefer, ban people who carry them) from your home? I have already answered that. It is not my fault you ignored it. I can prevent PEOPLE from coming into my home.... And that's for any reason I see fit. QuoteHow about your place of business? I don't think a company should be allowed to remove someones Constitutional rights. Do you think your company has the right to own slaves?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #106 September 29, 2009 QuoteHow is Amtrak a public place? How is a mall public place? How is a college public space? Really????? The National Railroad Passenger Corporation, doing business as Amtrak (reporting mark AMTK), is a government-owned corporation."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,997 #107 September 29, 2009 >I can prevent PEOPLE from coming into my home.... And that's for any reason I see fit. OK. Good to see you favor taking away citizens rights when they have done nothing wrong. >I don't think a company should be allowed to remove someones Constitutional rights. So if you owned a company, and someone wanted to build an altar and hold mass there, you would stand back and let them? Suppose you owned a paper, and one of your writers wanted to spend his time writing about sex with his girlfriend? You'd just let him do it, so as not to abridge his Constitutional right of free speech? Interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #108 September 29, 2009 QuoteOK. Good to see you favor taking away citizens rights when they have done nothing wrong. I never said I would... I said I could. I have the right to privacy... I guess you would surrender the 4th as fast as you do the 2nd?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #109 September 29, 2009 QuoteI don't think a company should be allowed to remove someones Constitutional rights. Maybe this entire thing stems from a lack of understanding about what the Constitution says. The Constitution defines the relationship between citizens and the government, not citizens and companies. Within the relationship between citizens and companies the US will ensure you're not discriminated against, but beyond some certain protections against that, there's very little the government can do with regards to any rules about not carrying firearms. It's just not possible.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,997 #110 September 29, 2009 >I never said I would... I said I could. And now the squirming begins. You have discovered a conflict between your desire to maintain control of your personal property and your desire to take a gun wherever you choose. You have admitted that you COULD restrict people from entering your property with guns, and indeed you claim that is your right. You must therefore grant other people the right to do as you do on their property. Don't be afraid to admit that. The Supreme Court agrees with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #111 September 29, 2009 Quote The Constitution defines the relationship between citizens and the government, not citizens and companies. So you would let your company search your house?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #112 September 29, 2009 QuoteAnd now the squirming begins. You have been squirming for a while now on the whole Private vs. Public issue. Quote You must therefore grant other people the right to do as you do on their property. Amtrak is not private... Quit trying to use that strawman."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #113 September 29, 2009 QuoteQuote The Constitution defines the relationship between citizens and the government, not citizens and companies. So you would let your company search your house? In fact, for some employment purposes, it gets more invasive than that. Companies have FAR more rights to invade your personal life than the government does; well, if you give them that permission as part of your employment agreement, like preemployment background checks. However, you have the option to not work for a company.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,997 #114 September 30, 2009 >You have been squirming for a while now on the whole Private vs. Public >issue. Not at all. I agree with you that you can take away citizens rights when they have done nothing wrong. In your home, as an example. >Amtrak is not private... Never said it was. You keep trying to find arguments where none exist (other than in your mind.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #115 September 30, 2009 QuoteThe National Railroad Passenger Corporation, doing business as Amtrak (reporting mark AMTK), is a government-owned corporation. That doesn't make it a public place though. The CIA is government owned, so is area 51, so is the white house, so are some prisons etc etc. Just cause it is publicly funded does not make it a public place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #116 September 30, 2009 QuoteThat doesn't make it a public place though. The CIA is government owned, so is area 51, so is the white house, so are some prisons etc etc. Just cause it is publicly funded does not make it a public place. That fact that it is open to the public does. The fact it was created to serve the public by them using it to move does as well."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #117 September 30, 2009 Quote>Amtrak is not private... Never said it was. You keep trying to find arguments where none exist (other than in your mind.) Except that you are using a strawman argument to avoid discussing the topic at hand, which *IS* Amtrak. You constantly avoid discussing the topic and try to throw red herrings into the discussion to avoid your arguments looking as weak as they are."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #118 September 30, 2009 QuoteIn fact, for some employment purposes, it gets more invasive than that. Companies have FAR more rights to invade your personal life than the government does; well, if you give them that permission as part of your employment agreement, like preemployment background checks. However, you have the option to not work for a company. And you giving permission makes it a totally different story. The police can search your house if you give them permission as well. Would you support a company owning slaves?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #119 September 30, 2009 QuoteThat fact that it is open to the public does. it isn't...only open to those who pay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #120 September 30, 2009 Quoteit isn't...only open to those who pay That's the best you can do? You said they were not public, then I showed they were owned by the Govt. You said so are other things like military bases and prisons... So, I showed how by DESIGN Amtrak was for the public use. Now the best you can do is claim its not public cause people have to pay? Your argument is WEAK."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #121 September 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteit isn't...only open to those who pay That's the best you can do? You said they were not public, then I showed they were owned by the Govt. You said so are other things like military bases and prisons... So, I showed how by DESIGN Amtrak was for the public use. Now the best you can do is claim its not public cause people have to pay? Your argument is WEAK. No I said it wasn't a public place. Just cause something is funded by the public and for the public use, still doesn't make it a public place. Public places tend to be open to all public, without a fee being charged. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #122 September 30, 2009 Your argument is WEAK."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #123 September 30, 2009 Quote Public places tend to be open to all public, without a fee being charged. You mean like I-90 east of Springfield in MA (aka the Mass Pike)? An interstate highway isn't a public place? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #124 September 30, 2009 QuoteYour argument is WEAK. Then explain to me how it is a public place. Should be easy to do, since my argument is that weak. And, keep in mind that since it is publicly funded and for the public use, does not make a space, public space. here is what my definition of public space is: "A public place refers to an area or place that is open and accessible to all citizens, regardless of gender, race, ethnicity, age or socio-economic level." Now please explain to me how an Amtrak train falls under that. You have already implied that this should be easy for you Ron. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #125 September 30, 2009 Quotehere is what my (Wikipedia's) definition of public space is: "A public place refers to an area or place that is open and accessible to all citizens, regardless of gender, race, ethnicity, age or socio-economic level." QuoteNow please explain to me how an Amtrak train falls under that. You have already implied that this should be easy for you Ron. So just for fun, I'll give you my (OK Wikipedia's) definition of PUBLIC transportation. "Public transport (also public transportation, public transit, or mass transit) comprises passenger transportation services which are available for use by the general public, as opposed to modes for private use such as automobiles or vehicles for hire... Public transport can consist of subways, trolleys and light rail, commuter trains, buses, van pool services, paratransit services for senior citizens and people with disabilities, ferries, water taxis, or monorails." So yeah.... It was easy."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
