Are people losing hope?

[steve1 5]

Are people getting more desperate in America due to the economic down turn?

I work in a small town in Montana. Last weekend there was a 17 year old who blew his brains out, here, playing Russian Roullette.

A couple days later a guy robbed a bank in North Dakota, and shot it out with police near the town where I live. He ended up killing himself with a bullet in the head.

Then I read another story in the paper, last night, of another guy in Eastern Montana. He'd lost his job, and he was hiding out in a farmers barn. Yes, he was a little crazy. When the cops were called he pointed a gun at the cop and the cop promptly shot him twice in the chest. With his last dieing breath, he said, thank you.

My brother lives and works near Bend, Oregon. He says he knows of people who once had a nice home. Some are now living in the woods, due to job loss. People are fighting for even minimum wage jobs.

Are these signs of the times? Kind of depressing to think about, isn't it.....

[Lucky... 0]

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Are people getting more desperate in America due to the economic down turn?

I work in a small town in Montana. Last weekend there was a 17 year old who blew his brains out, here, playing Russian Roullette.

A couple days later a guy robbed a bank in North Dakota, and shot it out with police near the town where I live. He ended up killing himself with a bullet in the head.

Then I read another story in the paper, last night, of another guy in Eastern Montana. He'd lost his job, and he was hiding out in a farmers barn. Yes, he was a little crazy. When the cops were called he pointed a gun at the cop and the cop promptly shot him twice in the chest. With his last dieing breath, he said, thank you.

My brother lives and works near Bend, Oregon. He says he knows of people who once had a nice home. Some are now living in the woods, due to job loss. People are fighting for even minimum wage jobs.

Are these signs of the times? Kind of depressing to think about, isn't it.....

Hmmm, maybe the gubbement should start factories or maybe a massive hospital project so we could both create jobs and and tend to our sick w/o helathcare ins.... but that would be the evil socialism, whereas we see how humane capitalism is; do or die. How many of these people in distress kill their families too? Whne the brilliant resistance to socialism falls, we will then have a descent society - wish I was born 40 years later.

[wmw999 2,452]

Dunno how much is losing hope (I'm sure that job availability has something to do with it) and how much is increased awareness due to 24-hour news and the internet.

I do know that the most depressing thing is the likely politicization of this by both sides. The best honor we can do is to try to treat people as individuals, and treat each of them as innately worthy of respect. Not universal respect, but the respect that's due to individuals, and that contributes to their self-respect.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mnealtx 0]

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maybe a massive hospital project so we could both create jobs and and tend to our sick w/o helathcare ins....

Um, yeah....

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July 9, 2009 -- The White House wants House Democrats to make deeper spending cuts in Medicare and Medicaid and do more to change payment systems for doctors and hospitals as part of a health overhaul they are writing.

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If enacted as scheduled on Jan. 1, 2010, policy changes recommended by the federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) -- the government's insurer for the elderly and disabled -- will severely cut current Medicare reimbursements to cardiologists and oncologists for critical care services that are provided to patients in physicians' offices or other out-of-hospital setting, such as chemotherapy to treat cancer, and various cardiac procedures to monitor and treat heart disease, such as nuclear imaging and heart catheterization.

Just give Granny that aspirin...she doesn't need a cardiac cath anyway.

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Whne the brilliant resistance to socialism falls, we will then have a descent society - wish I was born 40 years later.

Why don't you just move to China now, and quit trying to make the US "China lite"?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[justinb138 0]

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The best honor we can do is to try to treat people as individuals, and treat each of them as innately worthy of respect. Not universal respect, but the respect that's due to individuals, and that contributes to their self-respect.

Best thing I've read on here in a long, long time.

[Lucky... 0]

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Um, yeah....

Thx for your insightful response to: maybe a massive hospital project so we could both create jobs and and tend to our sick w/o helathcare ins....

I must say that I agree with you, sick people and laid off angry peole kiling families is peaceful captalism, building hospitals is ugly socialism.

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Just give Granny that aspirin...she doesn't need a cardiac cath anyway.

Please post that Newsmax site. From a guy who demands others do massive research for him, that's typical irony (oxymoron) for you to fail to cite.

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Why don't you just move to China now, and quit trying to make the US "China lite"?

So it's greedy capitalist America or horribly Communist China; there are no grey areas in conservatism.

[steve1 5]

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Dunno how much is losing hope (I'm sure that job availability has something to do with it) and how much is increased awareness due to 24-hour news and the internet.
.

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Actually this is close to home. I'm counseling kids today who will be going to the kid's funeral, who was playing Russian Roullette.

The cop who shot it out with the bankrobber lives a few hundred yards away from my house. He dodged four bullets. One of them shot out his tire.

I guess the other incidents are far away. It just seems like people are becoming more desperate. I know a lot of people who are out of work, or scrambling to hang onto what they own.

I wonder if government intervention is helping much of anything or will it make things worse in the long run.....I guess that's been argued a lot lately.....

[Lucky... 0]

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I wonder if government intervention is helping much of anything or will it make things worse in the long run.....I guess that's been argued a lot lately.....

We've had a society with less gov intervention and how has it turned out?

High crime / murder rate

Most indebted nation of all time

Millions of people w/o healthcare

List goes on, and on........


INSANITY: Doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome

[bullin82 0]

i seem to remembe a histoy leason onsomething like this happeneing where jobs became scares, banks fell, people starved to death in the street. I think they called it the great depreassion or something like that.

I also remember what saved the world from this and they called that WWII, so ll we need now is a WWIII and we should be set right?

[justinb138 0]

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INSANITY: Doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome

It's kind of funny the way that works...

Government keeps getting bigger, things keep getting worse...

[Lucky... 0]

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INSANITY: Doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome

It's kind of funny the way that works...

Government keeps getting bigger, things keep getting worse...

Did the government get bigger under Clinton? Spending was just about the sale as inflation and things got way better, so you may have a point. It appears that Dems want to maintain gov and Repubs want to grow gov.

[rehmwa 2]

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I do know that the most depressing thing is the likely politicization of this by both sides. The best honor we can do is to try to treat people as individuals, and treat each of them as innately worthy of respect. Not universal respect, but the respect that's due to individuals, and that contributes to their self-respect.

Best thing I've read on here in a long, long time.

ditto - I replaced the first sentence. waiting for someone to argue that it's one side not both.....it will happen here

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[justinb138 0]

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INSANITY: Doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome

It's kind of funny the way that works...

Government keeps getting bigger, things keep getting worse...

Did the government get bigger under Clinton? Spending was just about the sale as inflation and things got way better, so you may have a point. It appears that Dems want to maintain gov and Repubs want to grow gov.

Well, I'd agree if we were discussing Clinton, but it seems the majority of both parties wants to grow government.

[Lucky... 0]

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i seem to remembe a histoy leason onsomething like this happeneing where jobs became scares, banks fell, people starved to death in the street. I think they called it the great depreassion or something like that.

I also remember what saved the world from this and they called that WWII, so ll we need now is a WWIII and we should be set right?

Your timeline just isn't very good.

Stock market crash = 1929

GD = immediately

Hoover major tax increase his last year (1932)

Unemployment 25%, GDP and market in the crapper

FDR taking office = early 1933

Constant and immediate improvement from his 1st year, unemployment down every year and GDP up every year except 1937-38ish.

http://home.earthlink.net/~gfeldmeth/chart.ww2.html
Earliest US involvement in WWII 1940 with movement of ships, etc. Actual involvement wasn't until early 1942, congress allows for involvement day after Pearl Harbor.


So your point is wrong, FDR's policies and largest of all time tax increases are what pulled us out of the GD, recovery was virtually done before the start of WWII. I know this is common myth to think WWII pulle dus out, but it's wrong. Tax increases and vast social programs did it.

[Lucky... 0]

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I do know that the most depressing thing is the likely politicization of this by both sides. The best honor we can do is to try to treat people as individuals, and treat each of them as innately worthy of respect. Not universal respect, but the respect that's due to individuals, and that contributes to their self-respect.

Best thing I've read on here in a long, long time.

ditto - I replaced the first sentence. waiting for someone to argue that it's one side not both.....it will happen here

It predominantly the right if you consider the last 30 years. Altho GHWB did what the left does, he cut spending increases and increased taxes. Can you argue that Repubs in congress and Reagan and GWB aren't the villians? Show me major Democratic runaway spending and tax cutting , try not to use data from last week, last month, I'm talking major events that have time to factor out everything. Try not to view things as a microcosm, it's statistically insignificant.

[Lucky... 0]

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INSANITY: Doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome

It's kind of funny the way that works...

Government keeps getting bigger, things keep getting worse...

Did the government get bigger under Clinton? Spending was just about the sale as inflation and things got way better, so you may have a point. It appears that Dems want to maintain gov and Repubs want to grow gov.

Well, I'd agree if we were discussing Clinton, but it seems the majority of both parties wants to grow government.

So you want to have a discussion with blinders on? I like to use recent history and sometimes distant history to make my arguments. We can contrast policies from parties or from individuals and watch teh outcome. I understand you want to take a microcosm of 2 months and declare a statement.

[Darius11 12]

Well I think we believe in some things. Like hard work pays off, or if your willing to work and not be a lazy fuck you can make it. That’s simply no longer the case at least doesn’t feel that way to a lot of people who work their ass off. It seems no matter how hard you try something fucks things up. That’s when you start to feel hopeless. When you have been doing right for a long time yet you have nothing to show for it.

I can see why people would be down.

I also don’t think it’s just the financial issue but the unfairness of it. It seems the people most responsible are the one least effected.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[jcd11235 0]

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Well I think we believe in some things. Like hard work pays off, or if your willing to work and not be a lazy fuck you can make it. That’s simply no longer the case at least doesn’t feel that way to a lot of people who work their ass off.

Economic Mobility: Is the American Dream Alive and Well?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[pirana 0]

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Are people getting more desperate in America due to the economic down turn?

I work in a small town in Montana. Last weekend there was a 17 year old who blew his brains out, here, playing Russian Roullette.

A couple days later a guy robbed a bank in North Dakota, and shot it out with police near the town where I live. He ended up killing himself with a bullet in the head.

Then I read another story in the paper, last night, of another guy in Eastern Montana. He'd lost his job, and he was hiding out in a farmers barn. Yes, he was a little crazy. When the cops were called he pointed a gun at the cop and the cop promptly shot him twice in the chest. With his last dieing breath, he said, thank you.

My brother lives and works near Bend, Oregon. He says he knows of people who once had a nice home. Some are now living in the woods, due to job loss. People are fighting for even minimum wage jobs.

Are these signs of the times? Kind of depressing to think about, isn't it.....

Sounds reasonable. I expect there is some correlation between level of overall prosperity and suicide rate.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Darius11 12]

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Well I think we believe in some things. Like hard work pays off, or if your willing to work and not be a lazy fuck you can make it. That’s simply no longer the case at least doesn’t feel that way to a lot of people who work their ass off.

Economic Mobility: Is the American Dream Alive and Well?

Great read thank you.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[SpeedRacer 1]

Interesting. Worker productivity & workers income increased together up until the mid 70s. After that workers productivity continued to increase, but the salaries did not keep pace.

I should have been a CEO.

Speed Racer
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[riddler 0]

My personal feeling is that hope and hopelessness for the working-class have a lot to do with their job situation. Unemployment is at an all-time high, and unless we do something about jobs, or the market "corrects" for jobs sharply, then the gains that the economy is making will not last. The problem started with markets, but now it's about jobs. I think the Obama administration talked about jobs in January, but his focus seems to be on providing stimulus, and stimulus, in and of itself, is starting to wane. He'll need to make job creation his highest economic goal in order to push the recovery ahead.

The Dow is almost at 10,000 again. There will be a brief surge when it breaks that level, but sustained growth is only going to happen when the consumers, as a whole, have money to spend.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Lucky... 0]

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Interesting. Worker productivity & workers income increased together up until the mid 70s. After that workers productivity continued to increase, but the salaries did not keep pace.

I should have been a CEO.

So from about the 70's forward wages have gone to shit? Hmmm, I wonder what happened then to make that happen???

[happythoughts 0]

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The Dow is almost at 10,000 again. There will be a brief surge when it breaks that level, but sustained growth is only going to happen when the consumers, as a whole, have money to spend.

In our past, the Dow was an indicator of the health of
a group of companies. That was related to the health of
the economy. (Healthy companies employ people)

Then, with a global economy, the solution to a good quarterly dividend is cost cutting by outsourcing.

Verizon - cut 21,000 jobs in 2003, plans for another 8,000 in 2009. IBM - 5000 in 2009.

GM's plan for recovery? Start building cars in China.

Want to see it work? Find a US company with 20,000
employees and outsource half to another country.
The company stock will do great.

The DOW is no longer relevant to the health of the US
economy.

[Lucky... 0]

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My personal feeling is that hope and hopelessness for the working-class have a lot to do with their job situation.

Yes and overall well-being, healthcare availability, etc.

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Unemployment is at an all-time high,...

Hardly, it was 10.8% under Reagan and 25% as Hoover handed it off to FDR.

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...and unless we do something about jobs, or the market "corrects" for jobs sharply, then the gains that the economy is making will not last.

The rightthing to do would be to spend that stimulus on a massive hurry-up operation on building gov hospitals and sending people to school to be docs, nurses, techs and that would solve the unmpe problem and the healthcare problem. Of course there is a fair sized contenginecy out there whop would call that getting something for free, so we don't want to upset them by fixing both problems.

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..then the gains that the economy is making will not last.

Probably, altho the market kept climbing in a general sense around the era of the 1980 and 1990 recession, they may have temporarily adjusted, but didn't reflect the tough times as other indexes have. So the market indexes have more to do with rich people than other missery indexes, which belong to the poor / MC. Jobs are often far behind other recoveries.

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The problem started with markets, but now it's about jobs.

Yep, that's typical. And jobs didn't tank until we were in the recession for a while, so they lag on both ends, nothing unsuul about this deep recession other than the severity of it and the fast recovery.

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I think the Obama administration talked about jobs in January, but his focus seems to be on providing stimulus, and stimulus, in and of itself, is starting to wane.

Jobs are an indirecct aspect here. He can personally bailout industries, but he has to bailout compaies or stimulate companies in order to provoke them to hire people. That's how corporate America has this country by the short ones, there are people out there warning of teh sky falling and socialism's onset if the government gets too direct hands-on with jobs. In Europe they wouldn't bat an eye to have a gov-run massive bussiness. Look at Quantas, a gov-run airline. The American process will be forced to modify to evolve into a more humanist entity. IOW's, Obama's hands are tied, he was just about cricified to offer a public option for HC, what would happen if he proposed a major gov project where the gov was the employer and coordinator 100%?

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He'll need to make job creation his highest economic goal in order to push the recovery ahead.

I agree, but he has to doit indirectly or the "sky is falling" tea partiers will come out wandering around like a bunch of senile McCain's at the presidential debate.

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The Dow is almost at 10,000 again. There will be a brief surge when it breaks that level, but sustained growth is only going to happen when the consumers, as a whole, have money to spend.

The beauty is that the dollar made a huge jumo when at the end of chimp's term the market crashed and people pulled out of the market and stuck into bonds driving teh dollar up. Now that the market is flying these people are pulling out of binds, throwing into the market, so the dollar is shrinking, a good think for exchange rate on export goods, so hopefully that helps.