VFW members duct tape flag burner to flag pole

[quade 4]

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On some subjects a simple poll would cut thru a lot of BS.

Right. Because that is also how the law works. I forgot that mob mentality should alway rule the day.

I'm sorry, but your statement itself is BS.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Misternatural 0]

Well you are correct in that I am trying to widen the scale of the incident and draw attention to a larger national level of conduct, with regard to free speech, the concept of patriotism, and the motivations to send troops into battle. To me all of these concepts are intricately related and you are correct that I am trying to draw you and others into a broader discussion . I think it has value to get to the fundamental psychology behind why military personnel think the way they do and expect citizens to think the same way. I see a direct connection between this microcosm event and global events.

As for debate tactics I am not interested in a convoluted pissing contest or winning an argument with you,and you don't need to use this opportunity to make fun of Bill or Tom for my sake. I see you as an intelligent conduit to helping my understanding of why the symbol of a flag has to be so revered that examples must be made of people who do not show ultimate worship of it. To me there is a real socio-political danger in that. Yes I know what this guy did was wanton destruction of property. I am more interested in the associated symbolism. We may be on the same page on a few points here but reading your body of work over the years I think we differ on the patriotism subject. I am asking you or anybody else to help me understand this concept and in some way I am hoping you will.

You have helped me understand that the actions of the arson were not philosophically motivated , it was just an impulsive idiotic taunting action... I now agree. Now I want to understand why the Vet needed to make an example of the man, a civilian as far as I know, by tying him to an iconic symbol for public ridicule, effectively turning a disciplinary action into an opportunity to publicize whatever cause the VFW commander is trying to advertise,which in my view is patriotism itself- and how his actions achieve that goal.

We are headed into a period where we as a society have to make a choice, become more pro military and patriotic to survive by control and conquest of global resources, or seek more diplomatic and scientific alternative resolutions. Either way you have to win hearts and minds of the public.....this is a good place to have that discussion.

It may be tangental but I think if we crack this code it can lead to a better understanding of our future as a species.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[rehmwa 2]

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Little did I know that when I swiped that candy bar from the grocery store when I was four that I was the victim of vigilantism! I should have demanded my right to a trial by a jury of my peers, yet the lynch mob (store employees) tracked me down (a lady there was friends with my mom), took justice into their own hands, and said an apology would do. Fiends! Stalkers! Vigilantes!

nooooo, that's not vigilantism

apparently , that scenario 'would have been' vigilantism if you stole a FLAG instead of a candy bar AND if the 'lady' was a vet - then we can all assume the store employees were 'bad (assumed) right wing type people 'and had nefarious motivations


I hope that's clear now

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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why the symbol of a flag has to be so revered that examples must be made of people who do not show ultimate worship of it. To me there is a real socio-political danger in that.

I agree any type of fanaticism (envirofreaks, religious freak, overly political types, etc etc) is dangerous to society. But that argument is self affirming and doesn't really have any legs - we all agree that the 5% of people out there on either end of a topic that fit that description are wackos (except for those 5% themselves who think THEY are normal and that the other side has a 10% problem - )

But here, you have to assume the VFW commander's motivations are more than just his personal sense of practicality.

You might assume he's a flag worshipper and ranting about it all the time (most of the old guys I've seen that go to VFW just want a circle of friends to have a drink with occasionally).

I suspect that if he caught a kid toilet papering his yard, he'd not call the cops either - rather he'd make the kid clean it up and do yard work for a week or two as recompense and a lesson learned. Just an old guy dealing with a 'kid'. And yes - that would be vigilantism - but application of the term to these cases REALLY dilutes the meaning of the term.

I just don't think people are that deep (neither the vandal, nor the VFW commander) - this is a personal thing that happened, not a huge political statement on either side. But, a lot of people see shadows in every corner - because they WANT to see shadows in every corner.

So I equate this with any other other vandalism, etc.

Others here assume elsewise just because a vet or a flag was involved. I think that tells us more about those posters, and a lot less about the old guy or the vandal....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

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Sometimes the simplest explaination is best.

Agreed. Vengeance is the simplest, most probable explanation.

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It's there. You claim its vigilantism by definition of blacks law.

There you go replying without reading and understanding the posts to which your replying again.

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No 8th Amendment rights have been denied.

It appears that you don't quite grasp exactly what vigilantism means. There need not be an eighth amendment violation. It is about taking the law into one's own hands, bypassing the justice system.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Misternatural 0]

Thank you, i see your point about this particular commander,i am just sensitive to any publicized events like this. Personally, I resent patriotism being crammed down my throat and being called a pinko or a commie in general just because I have differing views. I think actions like the one the commander took no matter his intentions drives dissenters away from any national pride, patriotism, or feeling of security here.

As we saw in Nazi Germany seemingly innocuous public actions like this can lead down the highway to a military industrial utopia of a complete nationalistic martial lock down with a welcome mat for dissenters in front of a prison cell followed by an execution.

I really don't want to be one day hastily driven into the hills by my countrymen while clutching my semi auto weapon with a backpack full of ammo and survival gear just because I refuse to salute or wear an arm band.

thanks again, it is important that people share reality checks in these tough and uncertain times, they are appreciated and necessary for everyone

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[Lucky... 0]

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Two sides resolved a situation without resorting to violence, passing any noticable expense to society, or causing physical harm. Sounds like maturity to me. I still think that whenever possible people should solve their own problems and not be such tit fed pussies that some authority has to constantly play big brother.

So if I hold a gun to your head, you peacefully give me all your money and I peacefully leave then we resolved the matter of me being broke?

You're posturing old timer logic, it's 2009. That logic has been unsound and just not applied for decades in most civilized places. When you endanger people you don't endanger the other, you often involve many.

Furthermore, I love how you're satisfied with a well-rounded 1-sided story; this is how attrocities happen in our justice system. What if the truth is the flag owners and friends hunted the burner down and said we can beat you or you can submit to being tied up. WHat if they had the wrong guy?

There are laws, laws are codified and they have language that if violated constitute a crime. Just to say the good ole boys dealth with it reminds me of pre-Emancipation days.....scarry that people are ok with it.

[futuredivot 0]

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What if the truth is the flag owners and friends hunted the burner down and said we can beat you or you can submit to being tied up. WHat if they had the wrong guy?

What if "ifs" were "fifths"? Everybody would be drunk. Nothing would lead me to think that the scenario you presented is what happened. Anyone can stretch and alter and misapply to support their position-you have yet to convince me that the way it was handled was not one of the best possible ways to resolve it.
It's scary to me that people would prefer to pass their responsibilities to sweep their own porch to others.
Even if it were a more serious crime-say someone broke in to my house. I would expect legal authorities to write the reports required, but I would expect his heirs to come clean up the bodily fluids he leaked on my carpet. As long as they did that, we're even. No need to start a civil suit for emotional distress or some bullshit like that. Handle your own business whenever possible, as much as possible. Authorities exist to protect the rights of those who can't protect their own.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[futuredivot 0]

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That's stating that it's not a valid comparison-you must realize it.
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So, in one case we have a person that may have forced another person to do something against their will and the second person doesn't report it to the cops and in the other case . . . what is different?

When a rapist asks the victim, "Do you want to be raped, or arm wreslte, or would you prefer to call the police and let them handle it?" It still wouldn't be the same, but it would be getting closer.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Lucky... 0]

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You would have a valid point if you weren't wrong. Case in point:
- wrongful detention: The guy agreed to it
- possibly kidnapping: The guy agreed to it. We could argue all day about why the guy agreed to it but both sides would be making suppositions at best. Bottom line, the guy agreed to do it, isn't complaining about it now that he isn't taped to the flag pole. So logic dictates that he agreed to it and is fine with that decision.

YOU HEARD ONE SIDE OF THE STORY.

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the guy agreed to do it, isn't complaining about it now that he isn't taped to the flag pole. So logic dictates that he agreed to it and is fine with that decision.

Your logic derived from one side of the story. And how do you know he isn't complaining; the media isn't broadcasting it? Hmmm, wonder if you ever use that logai before/again; counting on teh media for all info?

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- endangerment: This guy wasn't in any danger. You can come up with some BS about how he was endangered but the facts are no one was beating this guy or threatening to beat him while he was taped up and the VFW Commander even insisted he remain anonymous to prevent him from any retribution.

You really don't understand the law, do you?

WHta if a dog came by and attacked him? What if killer bees came by? What if an armed person came by?

Endangement doesn't occur when someone puts another or others in damger and then something happens, it occurs when someone puts another or others in danger, period. The potential was there for danger, he could have had a seizure, etc.....the list goes on. And I could throw a friend on a motorcycle ans go 150MPH and be arrested for endagerment even if we didn't crash and even if they consented; the crime is against the state, not the victim.

Your lack of understanding of the law is compounded by your, "just do it any way you want" approach and wouldn't normally be upheld by the law. Perhaps UCMJ, but not civilian law.

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Yes, your assumptions are fucked up. I say that because you state that the individual was in danger and the video and actions made by the VFW Commander indicate that he was not placed in danger then or afterwards.

If dogs, bees, armed persons came by the taped indivual would not be in increased danger over aperosn not bound? Mkkk, that's NOT fucked up logic.

And your reference to the VFW Commander are supported by your curent affiliation with the military, I was in too so I get you, but it is not recognized outside the military.

But I love how you make an assumption from 1 side of the story. If we heard from teh taped individual and he said these guys approached me and said tehy were gonna tape me to the pole or beat my ass, you would be screaming LIAR. Wait, you;re conservative, so you would scream, YOU LIE.

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No, you don't have to accept anything, thats your choice. It still doesn't prove any of what you claim happened is valid. I highly doubt that the VFW Commander is worried about his liability, he is concerned that someone would be less forgiving than he was.

Well, I won't accept 1 side of the story, I understand you will since it wa sthe side you were predisposed to believe anyway.

And as for "prove" any one my assertions, the taped individual was in danger and admittedly taped by the VFW man.

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http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Endangerment

1. To expose to harm or danger; imperil.

He was exposed to harm or danger. He could have had a seizure, dogs, bees and a myriad of other dangers could have come along that an untaped person could escape from.

And there's this: http://www.wten.com/Global/story.asp?S=11190850

CLEM SAID: "I found him on Sunday and I duct taped him to the flag pole," Normile said bluntly. "He didn't deny it, said he was drunk. Let's just say he volunteered to sit out here duct taped to the pole."

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=846181&category=REGION

The young man was given three choices: get turned over to the police, go one-on-one in a fight with a seasoned war veteran, or be duct-taped to a flagpole for six hours with a sign around his neck identifying his alleged crime: flag burning.
It was the third option that would still have the small town buzzing a week after a 21-year-old was hunted down and forced to endure a public humiliation with its roots dating to the Middle Ages.

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This incident is a classic example of old school conflict resolution that didn't require the use of violence and both parties feel that the end result is acceptable in lieu of the alternative.

A) As you can see by the sourcce I cited, there were 3 options:

1 - Call the cops
2 - Get taped to a flag pole
3 - Fight a veteran

Violence was on the table, that constitutes violence, perhaps not in good ole boy military terms, but it is well within the civilian legal scope. THREATENING VIOLENCE IS VIOLENCE.

B) Both parties believe it was fair based on one side of the story. Nice.

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I don't think there are any ideologies or related items driving this, it's just a simple case of a dumb ass drunk making a mistake while inebriated, realizing his mistake once sober and taking responsibility for his actions afterwards.

He was threatened with a trained fighter beating his ass. Dunno what they teach ya there in the military.

Hey, I heard they killed another abortion doctor; what's your take on that?

[Lucky... 0]

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What if the truth is the flag owners and friends hunted the burner down and said we can beat you or you can submit to being tied up. WHat if they had the wrong guy?

What if "ifs" were "fifths"? Everybody would be drunk. Nothing would lead me to think that the scenario you presented is what happened. Anyone can stretch and alter and misapply to support their position-you have yet to convince me that the way it was handled was not one of the best possible ways to resolve it.
It's scary to me that people would prefer to pass their responsibilities to sweep their own porch to others.
Even if it were a more serious crime-say someone broke in to my house. I would expect legal authorities to write the reports required, but I would expect his heirs to come clean up the bodily fluids he leaked on my carpet. As long as they did that, we're even. No need to start a civil suit for emotional distress or some bullshit like that. Handle your own business whenever possible, as much as possible. Authorities exist to protect the rights of those who can't protect their own.

I wrote that before I found an article that stated just that: 3 choices:

- fight
- tape
- cops

Oppsee daisy, the 'what if' came to light, we don't have to hypothesize anymore.


Uh, don't try to morph this issue into that of a home invasion/burglary. And I'm ok that you won't accept the legal definition of "Endagerment" it's all good, but a judge some day won't care either if you claim ignorance of the law.

[warpedskydiver 0]

According to people who seem to dislike the military and Veterans, we are not tough at all.

I guess it is because we have not mastered the art of twisting our faces into pansy ass facial gestures.

I think we must take lessons from flag burners and protesters about how real tough guys show their rage and angst.

[downwardspiral 0]

Yup...figured that was the reason the other options weren't reported in the original story.

Had a Gunny threaten me with violence the second time he caught me on top of the helicopter without my cranial strapped. I think it involved a closet and him being the only one to come out standing...well I can only assume he was threatening violence. Needless to say there wasn't a third time.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Lucky... 0]

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According to people who seem to dislike the military and Veterans, we are not tough at all.

I guess it is because we have not mastered the art of twisting our faces into pansy ass facial gestures.

I think we must take lessons from flag burners and protesters about how real tough guys show their rage and angst.

Isn't it funny how conservatives only speak in binary 1 or 0? It's all one way or the other. I get it, with us or agaist us, just making an observation.

Point is, I like most military members and respect their sacrifice too. I don't like irrational use of this precious body of people and machine, as with the last nutjob who was president, but I want a reasonable and strong military.

As for tough, the US military as a whole is the toughest, as individuals they run the gammut.

As for facial gestures, unfortunate you don't have a better argument.

Just like military members, flag burners and protestors run the gammut. I protested the war at a local rally with some guys from the gym. One guy was one you or I would want to fuck with. So there is really no substance in your point here, just trying to make all military members teh patriotic ones and all nationalists the true patriots.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Could you please repeat that last paragraph in English?

[Lucky... 0]

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I think it involved a closet and him being the only one to come out...

Are you implying you're still in the closet?

Seriously, using threats to project a point, find resolve is ridiculous. I had a big MF back me against a wall in basic because I was doing a duty that wasnot mine and someone cried to him. That wouldn't happen today for a number of reasons. See, in civilization we go thru the courts. WHat happened here was a military siolution for a civilian problem and it looks as though they will get away with it, but if I were advising that 21 yo kid as the idiots walked up I would say:

- shut the door
- don't say anything
- if they persist to break in, get your gun and call the cops.

That's how we do it in the civilian world, if they want to impart military justice on a civilian then we'll use our forums and win.

Quit trying to militarize the world.

[Lucky... 0]

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Could you please repeat that last paragraph in English?

Just like military members, flag burners and protestors run the gammut. I protested the war at a local rally with some guys from the gym. One guy was one you or I wouldn't want to fuck with. So there is really no substance in your point here, just trying to make all military members teh patriotic ones and all nationalists the true patriots.

OK, so I forgot the "n't" on wouldn't. Anything else you are unable to understand or is this the entire response to the whole post; a sort of way for you to duck out?

[downwardspiral 0]

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I think it involved a closet and him being the only one to come out...

Are you implying you're still in the closet?

Seriously, using threats to project a point, find resolve is ridiculous. I had a big MF back me against a wall in basic because I was doing a duty that wasnot mine and someone cried to him. That wouldn't happen today for a number of reasons. See, in civilization we go thru the courts. WHat happened here was a military siolution for a civilian problem and it looks as though they will get away with it, but if I were advising that 21 yo kid as the idiots walked up I would say:

- shut the door
- don't say anything
- if they persist to break in, get your gun and call the cops.

That's how we do it in the civilian world, if they want to impart military justice on a civilian then we'll use our forums and win.

Quit trying to militarize the world.

Which service were you in exactly?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[warpedskydiver 0]

Special service!


extra extra special.

They let him play the flute.

[Lucky... 0]

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I think it involved a closet and him being the only one to come out...

Are you implying you're still in the closet?

Seriously, using threats to project a point, find resolve is ridiculous. I had a big MF back me against a wall in basic because I was doing a duty that wasnot mine and someone cried to him. That wouldn't happen today for a number of reasons. See, in civilization we go thru the courts. WHat happened here was a military siolution for a civilian problem and it looks as though they will get away with it, but if I were advising that 21 yo kid as the idiots walked up I would say:

- shut the door
- don't say anything
- if they persist to break in, get your gun and call the cops.

That's how we do it in the civilian world, if they want to impart military justice on a civilian then we'll use our forums and win.

Quit trying to militarize the world.

Which service were you in exactly?

Is that the best you can do? Go back and address the issues and wuit trying to duck under and ad hominem.

[jcd11235 0]

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According to people who seem to dislike the military and Veterans, we are not tough at all.

You shouldn't assume that some of us aren't veterans simply because we recognize what the VFW post commander did in response to the vandalism was also wrong.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Lucky... 0]

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Special service!


extra extra special.

They let him play the flute.

Are so out of gas that we have to resort to personal attacks?

Another fine conservative tactic; when ya get stuck, just go for PA's as a distraction.

[Lucky... 0]

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According to people who seem to dislike the military and Veterans, we are not tough at all.

You shouldn't assume that some of us aren't veterans simply because we recognize what the VFW post commander did in response to the vandalism was also wrong.

They can't help their binary mentality. It's 1's or 0's. Yes or no, black or white.

[warpedskydiver 0]

No, I just felt like giving you shit...

Understand now?



BTW your paragraph still was incoherent.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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According to people who seem to dislike the military and Veterans, we are not tough at all.

You shouldn't assume that some of us aren't veterans simply because we recognize what the VFW post commander did in response to the vandalism was also wrong.

And you should not assume I do not remember when things were so bad I wanted out.

Like when shit was so awful I forgot it was my own birthday.

It was never a cake walk and I knew it would not be, I tried to do everything I could.

I do not for one minute regret my actions and yet I still remember when it was not so good.

So next time you want to judge me do this first.

Get on top of a 3 story building, accelerate to 40mph and jump off onto a large boulder or concrete surface.

Then report back to me on how you feel about it.

Yeah I had it really easy.