Rookie120 0 #26 October 9, 2009 Quote no US soldier ever went bankrupt because of his health care needs Nobody where I work ever went bankrupt because of health care either. It's part of ourr benefit package. Do you want to have the same insurance as me even though you dont work for the company? That the way I see it. You want that benefit? You pay your dues. You work for it instead of demanding someone else pick up your tab.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #27 October 9, 2009 Quote no US soldier ever went bankrupt because of his health care needs (at least while they were in the military). That is the major difference. No. They just get blown up by following orders and get healthcare for that, as well. The difference, tk, is that soldiers do something for that care. To suggest that they do nothing is pretty insulting. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertimeunc 0 #28 October 9, 2009 +1 Well, it's time for me to go to work. I'm off to go be a peon, pawn of the government, and disgusting mercenary to earn my undeserved free health care.The best things in life are dangerous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #29 October 9, 2009 Quote There's no "magical super badass army medicine" that we get just for being in the military. I don't know ... there's some pretty "magical super badass military medicine" and biomedical research being worked on through DARPA. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #30 October 9, 2009 Quote To suggest that they do nothing is pretty insulting. He's ok with that. His battle is for the "general population" to get everything that someone else has. Military has "x" - "We should get it too!." Congress has "y" - "That's not fair." And while maybe they "should" and maybe "it's not fair." That is how it currently is. He has shown that he is willing to try to shake that status quo. Even if it means insulting those that have given him that very freedom to do so. However.... what he hasn't spelled out is the limits and the payment schedule for said "I want mine." ER visits? Disability/Accidents? Self inflicted or accidents due to hazardous activities? Preventative? Vaccinations? Malignancy screening? HPV testing for everyone? Illness/Infective diseases? STD's? Prenatal care? Contraception? Infertility? IVF/ICSI, PGD? Chronic medical conditions? PREVENTABLE chronic medical conditions (chronic medical conditions d/t obesity, smoking or other lifestyle choices)? Bariatric surgery (it can help with chronic medical conditions) Abdominoplasty (if he/she has now lost all that weight, what do you do with all the excess skin)? Breast augmentation/reduction (s/p mastectomy for malignancy, back pain, self image)? Rhinoplasty (OSA, chronic sinusitis, self image)? Medications? Selective lists? Generic only? WHERE are those limits? And ... who pays? The U.S. is so indebted to foreign countries right now that we have NO money in the bank for domestic concerns. Could we "balance the budget"? Should we live within the means of that budget? Who pays to build the hospitals or clinics? Who pays for the bills of those facilities? Electrical, water, gas, even cable and internet... Who pays for the the equipment in that facility? Lab, radiology, beds, wheelchairs, surgical suites, sterile instruments, non-sterile supplies... Who pays for the wages of the employees in that facility? Physicians, nurses, lab techs, pharmacist, surgical assist, IT, security, medical records, cafeteria, housekeeping/grounds keep... And when (or "if") it all becomes "free" - will "the people" be mature enough to respect that and not run to it just because "it's free" (with the personal experience on that... I have my opinions) But... good sir, Lawrocket.... yes, he is willing to insult the military members because 1. It's his right. 2. It's easier to come up with quick cries than to realize that the problem is a lot bigger than just "I want mine." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #31 October 9, 2009 Quote You pay your dues. You work for it instead of demanding someone else pick up your tab. you mean like work for a living and STILL not be able to afford health insurance? Is that 'paying your dues'? Back to the original arguments I have made time and time again NO ONE is advocating that health care is 'free',. everyone could and should pay NO ONE is advocating that health care is NOT expensive NO ONE is advocating that someone else should pay for it I am advocating that if the military gets it, the old folks get it, the very poor get it, the disabled get it, then it is a very small step for ALL of us to get it. And pay for it in exactly the same way as we do all those other programs. Thru the tax system. I am working for it and I can barely afford it, and I make decent money. Lots do not make decent money, but they could pay more income tax, and yes, they could all have health care (single payer). And the military is 'demanding' someone else pick up the tab - you and me...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #32 October 9, 2009 Quote No. They just get blown up by following orders and get healthcare for that, as well. A large chunk of the military never sees battle. A large chunk of the military sits behind a desk for their entire careers. Should I pay for their health care as well? And I did NOT suggest that they do nothing. I asked what have we done to NOT deserve the same treatment as them? they fight for our country - well I pay for it. So there......I think I have done my share no? (devil's advocate) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #33 October 9, 2009 Quote A large chunk of the military never sees battle. A large chunk of the military sits behind a desk for their entire careers. Should I pay for their health care as well? yes you should because those REMF's support the front line troops. Even the guy that puts gas in someone's jeep at the motor pool has an effect that ripples forward to the front lines. *** And I did NOT suggest that they do nothing. actually, you stated as fact (not a suggestion) that a "large chunk of the military sits behind a desk for their entire careers".-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #34 October 9, 2009 Quote they fight for our country - well I pay for it. So do they. Did you know that they pay federal income taxes, social security, etc., just like you? Thus, in terms of paying for it, they are equal to you. They pay taxes, in a sense helping keep themselves employed. Quote I asked what have we done to NOT deserve the same treatment as them? This is a fascinating question that indicates the entirely different mindsets that you and I have. I view the world as me deserving nothing and going to get what I need or what I want. That takes hard work. And also, it deal with matters I can control. What did I do to deserve the inability to tan?" Nothing. But I am pale. Suck it up. Your viewpoint is entirely different. Your description os a viewpoint that you don't deserve NOT to get what others receive - regardless of what they've done to achieve it. What have you done NOT to deserve to have a license practice medicine? What have you done NOT to deserve a seat on the gravy train? What have you done NOT to deserve metal in your neck? Those soldiers didn't do anything to deserve that health care. They fucking EARNED it. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #35 October 9, 2009 Hayes, if you feel this strong about your convictions, you should post a sign at your dropzone in Z Hills stating: No Military Pukes allowed. Dare ya. PS don't leave out the Christians.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tolgak 0 #36 October 9, 2009 The question in this thread seems not to be about healthcare but about the perception of the service member as a higher citizen. To put the healthcare issues to rest, I believe it's up to the employer to determine how much the cover their employees. Considering government workers are quite valuable assests in terms of money put in to training, it is in the interest of the government (and the people) that we are keeping those employees in the best condition we can afford. I do not view soldiers as higher citizens. Many of them are NOT selfless individuals who desire to "defend the country" as many of them would say. Some people I've met have a profound desire to kill another human. Others have religious desires and many just want the experience of the job, being the only way they can get their dream jobs after discharge (this is especially true for pilots). Some want to relinquish the responsibilities of their life to the government, thinking the job will make life simpler for them. Considering the mentalities of people before and after joining the military, I would say that much of the "patriotism" exhibited by service members is a result of indoctrination and culture, not from their beliefs prior to joining. Aside from the threatening nature of some of military jobs, most of their roles are not much more dangerous or demanding than those of civilians. Their roles are useless if there were no civilians to defend. They wouldn't be anything different than the mercs of blackwater. A country is not defined by its military, it's defined by its populace. To say that a soldier is anything more special than the people he serves simply because he has that title is an insult to those who really are exceptional members of society.Dropzones are terrible places for inspiration. What does one think when one looks up for a sign only to see a bunch of people falling? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,064 #37 October 9, 2009 >actually, you stated as fact (not a suggestion) that a "large chunk of >the military sits behind a desk for their entire careers". That's true. I worked for the military for years as a contractor, and there were a lot of people who captained mighty desks as a career. And to take your approach to such things - why do you diss military people who work behind desks? Are they not good enough for you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #38 October 9, 2009 That is a massive misrepresentation of what I am saying and I ( once again ) would appreciate you and others not putting words in my mouth I do not have an issue with soldiers -I have an issue with the policies they have to implement and I am questioning why they get more than me in regards to health care now bite me.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #39 October 9, 2009 Quote Quote There's no "magical super badass army medicine" that we get just for being in the military. I don't know ... there's some pretty "magical super badass military medicine" and biomedical research being worked on through DARPA. /Marg Yea I really like the first line under the title Quote An Array of Programs Aims to Improve the Safety, Health, and Well-being of the Military and Civilians Alike Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #40 October 9, 2009 Quote Quote No. They just get blown up by following orders and get healthcare for that, as well. A large chunk of the military never sees battle. A large chunk of the military sits behind a desk for their entire careers. Should I pay for their health care as well? Quote There is no guarantee that these people will never see combat. A lot of people with desk jobs have ended up in combat as direct participants or in support roles. Sometimes REMFs (rear echelon mother fuckers) get killed. I saw this in Vietnam. This large chunk of people sitting behind desks must be fit to do their jobs, and must be ready to leave at a moments notice. Otherwise, civilians could take their jobs. *** And I did NOT suggest that they do nothing. I asked what have we done to NOT deserve the same treatment as them? they fight for our country - well I pay for it. So there......I think I have done my share no? (devil's advocate) You left out one thing: You are not willing to serve and die for your country...Bite me twice..Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #41 October 9, 2009 Quote I believe it's up to the employer to determine how much the cover their employees As an employer myself, yes. And it is up to the employee to take it or leave it. I think that the employee's responsibility to himself is to take care of herself. I further believe that it is responsible for me to take care of my employees, thus ensuring that they are costing my business by being sick or ill. Quote I do not view soldiers as higher citizens. Many of them are NOT selfless individuals who desire to "defend the country" as many of them would say. Some people I've met have a profound desire to kill another human. Others have religious desires and many just want the experience of the job, being the only way they can get their dream jobs after discharge (this is especially true for pilots). And the predominant factor I found among my troops was a way to get out and do something else. Hey, I could have wkred the same summer job at a movie theater. Or, I could go to Ft. Knox, do basic, and compete for a full ride scholarship. I chose the latter. I got the scholarship. I got out as a Captain. My troops? Many of them wanted to be deployed because it was the prospect for better work and better pay than working at Jiffy Lube. Some wanted to go to combat - these three had been in combat before and said the rush was incredible. Quote I would say that much of the "patriotism" exhibited by service members is a result of indoctrination and culture, not from their beliefs prior to joining. I would agree to an extent. having been in myself, I questioned a number of policies and actions. Personally, I found any failure of my troops to be a reflection of myself. If I was gonna be a sociopath, so were my troops. It goes downhill. I believe that Abu Ghraib was a fundamental failure of command. But - these guys, despite their private gripes, did their jobs because it was what they did. It was like my sister - I have my private gripes and issues with her, but I will publicly and loudly defend her to anyone. It's the way we were. I dont' miss the job. I miss those troops, though. Quote most of their roles are not much more dangerous or demanding than those of civilians. In a sense. But there are differences. Let's say, for example, you're an 88N in the Army - a Traffic Management Coordinator. Okay. So you sit in a tent or a building and manage traffic flow, convoys, etc. Much the same as sitting in a traffic center for the Los Angeles Freeways, Except for the occasional indirect fire. The redeployment from CONUS to theater. The general disruption to your family life. Not seeing your kids for 14 months. That kind of thing. Obviously, some people in private business do that. They make less and get paid better and have the choice of saying, "I quit." That's a difference. I don't rank military men and women any higher on my list because I've been one myself. I'm not saying they are any more special. But to say, "They get this and I don't! That's not fair!" is, to me, ludricrous. I pay for my health care because I didn't stay in. My choice. They get health care because it is a perk. Their choice. There is no equivocation between somebody doing something to get a benefit and somebody doing nothing and wanting the same thing. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #42 October 10, 2009 Quote and I am questioning why they get more than me in regards to health care Because thats one of the benefits whe you go work for them. I get benefits from my employer also. Do you also want the same my company offers without working there?If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #43 October 10, 2009 read further up and you'll see where I note that the REMF's have an effect on the front line troops. You inferred from my statement that I was disparaging the REMF's. When to me it sounded like you were doing the same.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #44 October 10, 2009 Quote I am questioning why they get more than me in regards to health care take that up with your insurance provider. Quote now bite me.... that might cause the need for medical care. wouldn't want that now would we...-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #45 October 12, 2009 Quote Quote Quote There's no "magical super badass army medicine" that we get just for being in the military. I don't know ... there's some pretty "magical super badass military medicine" and biomedical research being worked on through DARPA. Yea I really like the first line under the title Quote An Array of Programs Aims to Improve the Safety, Health, and Well-being of the Military and Civilians Alike Very good point, really cool biomedical research coming out of DARPA and other DoD programs. I’ll take it tho.’ Yes, I agree that federally funded and managed programs have tremendously benefited all of the citizens of the US, from no thalidomide babies in the US (FDA) to uniform road signage (DOT, actually a study group) to the human genome (NIH & DOE) to internet (ARPA & NSF) ... to one could go on & on & on ... /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #46 October 12, 2009 Quote federally funded and managed programs have tremendously benefited all of the citizens of the US That was my point. Not only the US but the whole world gain's with our research. Now if other's would realize that.Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #47 October 12, 2009 Quote Quote What did the military ever do to you to deserve your arrogant treatment. ? They are murderers for hire. Blues, Cliff Blues, Cliff WOW! your still allowed to post here after numerous direct attacks at upstanding individuals. Who, unlike you, have decided that they should stand and defend the U.S. of A., it's citizens, borders and interests (as defined by the Civilian Politicians YOU help vote into office). And before you try to hide behind the Constitution, this is a PRIVATE site not subject to such protection. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliffwhite 0 #48 October 12, 2009 Quote Quote Quote What did the military ever do to you to deserve your arrogant treatment. ? They are murderers for hire. Blues, Cliff WOW! your still allowed to post here after numerous direct attacks at upstanding individuals. Who, unlike you, have decided that they should stand and defend the U.S. of A., it's citizens, borders and interests ..." Matt Ok Matt , those soldiers are doing a wonderful job of defending our borders!!! How many millions of Mexicans wander across at will? And as far a defending the USA, please tell me the last war that the US fought in defense as opposed to imperial conquest. Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #49 October 12, 2009 Quote WOW! your still allowed to post here after numerous direct attacks at upstanding individuals. PA's don't count as long as there's a mod that agree's with you.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #50 October 12, 2009 What Mod believs that garbage? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
