The Best Home Defense Weapon?

[steve1 5]

I just finished reading a book by Lt. Colonel Grossman. In his opinion....there have been great improvements in technology, but probably the very best weapon for close range work, is the shotgun with a short barrel.

He went on to say that everyone fears military weapons like the M-16, but in actuality the M-16 is more for wounding folks than killing them.

He went on to say that anyone can take an old shotgun and saw off the barrel, and end up with a weapong that is much more deadly at close range.

He added that may be one reason that the military went from issuing 45's to 9 MM's. The 9MM would blow a smaller hole and be more likely to wound an enemy soldier.

The theory being that it takes three people to take care of a wounded soldier, and that would slow the enemy down more than a dead soldier.

I'm not sure that I buy all this. With full metal- jacketed-bullets, (like the ones used in combat) it's hard to blow a very big hole. So, how about using soft pts. for home defense.

There's been a lot of debate on what's the best pistol. Most people believe that a 9MM is on the small side, even with hollow pts.

I've never been very impressed with the killing power of a 22 bullet. I've shot a few deer and antelope with a 22-250. Half of them required another shot. I don't hunt anything much bigger than coyotes with that caliber now.

I am a big believer in a short shotgun for home defense.....In my mind it may very well be the best weapon for that.

[BartsDaddy 7]

Naw a 1919-A4 is the best

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[Butters 0]

Game, set, match ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[TomAiello 26]

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I just finished reading a book by Lt. Colonel Grossman. In his opinion....there have been great improvements in technology, but probably the very best weapon for close range work, is the shotgun with a short barrel.

Did he comment on muzzle blast, relative to blinding or deafening yourself in an indoor environment?

That's really the only good argument I've heard against the 12 gauge (generally from people who like handgun caliber carbines for home defense, but also from some AR folks who like AR's in the new calibers, like 6.8, with suppressors).

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Andy9o8 2]

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He added that may be one reason that the military went from issuing 45's to 9 MM's. The 9MM would blow a smaller hole and be more likely to wound an enemy soldier.

The theory being that it takes three people to take care of a wounded soldier, and that would slow the enemy down more than a dead soldier.

That surprises me, since one reason the military went to a .45 pistol slug back in the day in the first place was to enhance first-shot stopping-power. I've always been under the impression that the conversion from .45 cal to 9mm was to bring the ammo in standardization with other NATO allies' pistol ammo, as well as to increase the number of rounds per standard clip. But, I'm no military historian.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I agree with him on the use of a shotgun. Very hard to beat, if it can be.
I disagree with his reasoning behind the swap from .45 to 9mm. The change was made to bring the US more in line with what our allies were using. To say it was to wound instead of kill is ignorant. A sidearm is used when and only when the assailant is very close; close enough to warrant being stopped...NOW! If he is close enough to wound with a 9, he is close enough to hurt you wounded.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[TomAiello 26]

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I disagree with his reasoning behind the swap from .45 to 9mm. The change was made to bring the US more in line with what our allies were using.

I agree.

One advantage of the 9 over the .45 could be the potential for faster and more accurate follow up shots.

Given that a handgun is basically stopping people based on shot placement (not caliber), it makes sense to use the most controllable handgun, with the largest magazine, to maximize the chance of getting a well placed shot. 9mm in a full size pistol fits the bill nicely, for that. Which is also a good rationale for using 9mm handguns for back-line troops and .45 for the more highly trained SOCOM types, which is more or less what the US military is doing now.

I always get confused when people cite the FBI study to show that "bigger holes is better," because when I read it what I get is "shot placement is the paramount consideration--everything else is secondary." For personal defense with a handgun, then the real answer would be "use what you shoot well."

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[rhaig 0]

the friends I have that do business with the military (wrt ammo and munitions) echoed the last point to me. They also understood that the conversion to 9mm was because of the ready supply of 9mm ammo, and so so the soldier could carry more rounds as well as have more in the magazine. That was expanded on by adding that the reason they need more rounds is because soldiers in general do not train with "hot" weapons, and are not as accurate because of their comfort levels. I do not know of any data regarding that opinion, it was passed on to me over beer. Reportedly from a Major in the Army. So this is 2nd hand at best. Though not the only time I've heard complaints about lack of training with hot weapons.

--
Rob

[councilman24 37]

Just read another opinion in Shooting Times.

Didn't bother catching the author. Conclusion? Double action revolver. Reasons, simplicity and short. Preferred those that used moon clip for reloading. Anybody can use it, no mags to screw up, simple action, enough shots, can lean barrel against door frame or funiture without a failure to go into battery. No long gun to swing or long handle for the bad guy to grab.

I'm comfortable with my glock. But my revolvers are good too. And both are easier to secure from the kids than a long gun. Reason the shotgun's in the safe.

Supported AR style for civil unrest protection, like Katrina.

YMMV, pick one.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[TomAiello 26]

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Just read another opinion in Shooting Times.

Didn't bother catching the author. Conclusion? Double action revolver. Reasons, simplicity and short.

...I'm comfortable with my glock.

Obviously there is no "ideal" for everyone. What works for you will depend on your training, physical strength, and disposition, as well as your ability to practice regularly.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[rickjump1 0]

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I disagree with his reasoning behind the swap from .45 to 9mm. The change was made to bring the US more in line with what our allies were using.

I agree.

One advantage of the 9 over the .45 could be the potential for faster and more accurate follow up shots.

Given that a handgun is basically stopping people based on shot placement (not caliber), it makes sense to use the most controllable handgun, with the largest magazine, to maximize the chance of getting a well placed shot. 9mm in a full size pistol fits the bill nicely, for that. Which is also a good rationale for using 9mm handguns for back-line troops and .45 for the more highly trained SOCOM types, which is more or less what the US military is doing now.

I always get confused when people cite the FBI study to show that "bigger holes is better," because when I read it what I get is "shot placement is the paramount consideration--everything else is secondary." For personal defense with a handgun, then the real answer would be "use what you shoot well."

I have read stories of troops issued the M1 Carbine, exchanging them for the M1 Garand. It was all about stopping power with minimum shooting. They did not have the time for follow up shots as they were fighting mass attacks in the Pacific or in Korea. The 9mil is a cute little weapon if you have all the time for follow up shots and your opponent isn't wearing a heavy trench coat.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[kbordson 8]

Intelligence and Situational Awareness would be the "Best Home Defense"

Which weapon to use... depends on the situation.

Is it a domestic dispute?

- taser.

Is it a personal attack? (co-worker or other known assailant that intends to HARM and even KILL ... not a steal issue)

- 1911A1 or shotgun

Is it a random burglary? (neighborhood kids looking for quick cash)

- a dog

Is it a targeted home invasion? (and no... I don't mean "The Russians are COMING!"... was the house "scoped" / "cased" and specifically identified as a target)

-
Each one has different needs and strategies.

[rickjump1 0]

How about a little ole 20 gauge with an assortment of shot sizes?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Just read another opinion in Shooting Times.

Didn't bother catching the author. Conclusion? Double action revolver. Reasons, simplicity and short.

...I'm comfortable with my glock.

Obviously there is no "ideal" for everyone. What works for you will depend on your training, physical strength, and disposition, as well as your ability to practice regularly.

Agreed. I shoot quite often and under purposely varied conditions, i.e. poor lighting, into bright light, weak hand, weak eye, etc. I am physically large enough that, with all the practice I get, I can handle my Springfield .45 very comfortably. My girlfriend is small-medium stature and cannot handle a .45 comfortably so she chooses a Lady Smith .38 revolver.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[MudMan 0]

The best home defense weapon is yourself. The tool you use is of less importance than how capable you are of using it under the circumstances.

In terms of firearms, my personal choice is a Mossberg 590 12guage and a glock 9mm. The shotgun has the very serious scare factor for anyone looking down the wrong end of one, while the 9mm, for me is a much more versatile weapon. I used to use a 1911 .45, but found that by the time I went through a magazine, my accuracy was for shit. I finally decided that a 9mm with a good self defense round would create a perfectly acceptable wound channel, and I am much more likely to create one in the first place.

That being said, both those stay in my safe, because I also decided that I was not really willing to kill someone, something that you really must have rationalized in advance. If you haven't than you run the serious risk of having only escalated the situation beyond your capabilities to deal with it.

Deterents are the best way to deal with the home defense stiuation. Criminals look for easy targets. They avoid places with lots of light, close neighbors, or big loud dogs. A dog is the BEST deterent around. My good friends have kept their house unlocked for decades, and I can't imagine too many people with the balls to go into a house with the two dogs they have barking away.

Training and strategy are the key. Are you training to shoot your intruder? Then make sure you can do that and do it well with whatever tool you decide on. Are you trying to keep them out in the first place? Dogs, lights on timers/motion detectors, thorny bushes near ground level windows, healthy relationships with your close neighbors, etc. all help avoid the situation in the first place.

On top of all this, being able to use your own body to defend itself and others is extremely important. Some training in the martial arts is a good thing to have. Most altercations are not going to be a boxing match, but rather some sort of grappling stranglefest in tight confines. Some actual practice scrapping with a skilled opponent goes a long way, as does some practical knowledge of how to use common items as weapons. The common broom stick is a good facsimile of the bo staff and can be used to good effect against an armed opponent. Jujitsu has one of the best training regimines around, simply because it involves actually grappling with someone who is trying to choke your ass out, not the theoretical 'best form' practice of kata based arts.

And. . . well I've been babbling enough I'll stop now.

"All Generalizations Are False."

[BIGUN 1,307]

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He added that may be one reason that the military went from issuing 45's to 9 MM's. The 9MM would blow a smaller hole and be more likely to wound an enemy soldier.

The theory being that it takes three people to take care of a wounded soldier, and that would slow the enemy down more than a dead soldier.

He is mistaken. That may be our theory, but not theirs and a wounded soldier can still kill. The reason for the conversion from .45 to 9mm was to be more "NATO compliant-ish." If we were all carrying 9mm and ran low on ammo, we could use an allies' ammo and vice versa instead of being the lone supply chain.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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The best home defense weapon is yourself. The tool you use is of less importance than how capable you are of using it under the circumstances....


...And. . . well I've been babbling enough I'll stop now.

Keep babbling on as far as I'm concerned. You have a lot of valuable things to say.

I've always told people the best weapon to have is one that you can and will use.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[StreetScooby 5]

Good post!

We are all engines of karma

[LouDiamond 1]

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I just finished reading a book by Lt. Colonel Grossman. In his opinion....there have been great improvements in technology, but probably the very best weapon for close range work, is the shotgun with a short barrel.

Did he comment on muzzle blast, relative to blinding or deafening yourself in an indoor environment?

That's really the only good argument I've heard against the 12 gauge (generally from people who like handgun caliber carbines for home defense, but also from some AR folks who like AR's in the new calibers, like 6.8, with suppressors).

Honestly, ANY weapon you shoot in a confined space, be it handgun or shotgun or AR without hearing pro is going to seem deafening if you've never experienced it before. All will also display some muzzle flash, some just more than others. Having fired all of the aforementioned in an enclosed space, I'd say its a draw or moot point as its gonna be loud and there is gonna be a flash. The only exception is if your running a can on your pistol/carbine, then its about as loud as a 22 cal relatively speaking.


I am not a Grossman fan per say, I think he is an ass. His book "On Killing" covers some valid observations and historical information but if you took the meat of that book it would be about 2-3 chapters, the rest is crap IMO.


I don't think anyone can provide a definitive answer on why we went to the 9mm but part of it does have to do with the NATO part but a bigger part of that picture is that women(and some men) could not handle the 45 well enough to qualify with it to the meager qualification standard. Not to mention that all other weapon systems that used 45 cal had been removed from service so the only weapon system in the inventory that used 45 cal was the 1911. I am also convinced that some one high up had an agenda on the Beretta switch as it wasn't long before we had complaints from the field on the locking blocks breaking among other problems. Strangely enough, this was only reported by those units that actually shot more than 40 rounds twice a year through their Berettas. It's a crap gun thats been tweaked to perform slightly better but given the option people in my community would opt for a 45 over the 9mm.

I'm well versed on the ballistic tests and all the data on 9mm vs 45 cal. But the bottom line is that even given good shot placement, people, not just big guys, but skinny little mal nourished haji's can take a few 9 mm rounds(5.56 mm too) in the torso and keep moving/fighting. That has been my first hand experience as well as others who have actually engaged a human target with weapons fire. The 45 was re-adopted by the SOF community for a reason, it stops people even when the shot placement is less than ideal , the same can be said for 7.62,it has a longer reach and more knock down power.

For the average person, male or female, a shotgun is an ideal home defense weapon.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

I've read both of Grossman's books, On Killing and On Combat. He does not say the reason for the .45 to .9 change was to wound the enemy. He insinuated that it was an added benefit (can be argued). I may be wrong, but that's what I got from his books.

[Zach 0]

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I am not a Grossman fan per say, I think he is an ass. His book "On Killing" covers some valid observations and historical information but if you took the meat of that book it would be about 2-3 chapters, the rest is crap IMO.

He is very selective about what things he cites from sources (not that you're going to put something in your book that doesn't support your argument). This selectiveness leads to misrepresentation of what some of these people like S.L.A. Marshall were actually saying. I don't know whether he's an ass or not, but he's a sloppy historian.

Zach

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[Skyrad 0]

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Intelligence and Situational Awareness would be the "Best Home Defense"

Which weapon to use... depends on the situation.

Is it a domestic dispute?

- taser.

Is it a personal attack? (co-worker or other known assailant that intends to HARM and even KILL ... not a steal issue)

- 1911A1 or shotgun

Is it a random burglary? (neighborhood kids looking for quick cash)

- a dog

Is it a targeted home invasion? (and no... I don't mean "The Russians are COMING!"... was the house "scoped" / "cased" and specifically identified as a target)

-
Each one has different needs and strategies.

Brains wins again.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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The best home defense weapon is yourself. The tool you use is of less importance than how capable you are of using it under the circumstances.

In terms of firearms, my personal choice is a Mossberg 590 12guage and a glock 9mm. The shotgun has the very serious scare factor for anyone looking down the wrong end of one, while the 9mm, for me is a much more versatile weapon. I used to use a 1911 .45, but found that by the time I went through a magazine, my accuracy was for shit. I finally decided that a 9mm with a good self defense round would create a perfectly acceptable wound channel, and I am much more likely to create one in the first place.

That being said, both those stay in my safe, because I also decided that I was not really willing to kill someone, something that you really must have rationalized in advance. If you haven't than you run the serious risk of having only escalated the situation beyond your capabilities to deal with it.

Deterents are the best way to deal with the home defense stiuation. Criminals look for easy targets. They avoid places with lots of light, close neighbors, or big loud dogs. A dog is the BEST deterent around. My good friends have kept their house unlocked for decades, and I can't imagine too many people with the balls to go into a house with the two dogs they have barking away.

Training and strategy are the key. Are you training to shoot your intruder? Then make sure you can do that and do it well with whatever tool you decide on. Are you trying to keep them out in the first place? Dogs, lights on timers/motion detectors, thorny bushes near ground level windows, healthy relationships with your close neighbors, etc. all help avoid the situation in the first place.

On top of all this, being able to use your own body to defend itself and others is extremely important. Some training in the martial arts is a good thing to have. Most altercations are not going to be a boxing match, but rather some sort of grappling stranglefest in tight confines. Some actual practice scrapping with a skilled opponent goes a long way, as does some practical knowledge of how to use common items as weapons. The common broom stick is a good facsimile of the bo staff and can be used to good effect against an armed opponent. Jujitsu has one of the best training regimines around, simply because it involves actually grappling with someone who is trying to choke your ass out, not the theoretical 'best form' practice of kata based arts.

And. . . well I've been babbling enough I'll stop now.

Another sane and measured answer.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[AggieDave 6]

Eh, I wouldn't depend on a Taser. When they work, they're great, but if the probes miss or don't penetrate the clothing, then they don't work and you're in trouble. Then you have to do something with the person. That's also why when deploying "less lethal" devices, most agencies teach to have "hard cover" deployed as well. That's someone with a real gun drawn and pointed or at least Sul for quick reaction.

Actually, people have yet to say what they'll do with the person. Are you going to tie the person up until LE arrives? Are you going to leave them there? Are you going to offer first aid? Are you trained to restrain the person and are you trained to offer medical attention?

There are further steps that need to be taken. Its not BOOM and it ends, although it could be. Something people need to consider is the back half. You have to have a plan, you have to be ready to make the plan happen. Even if something deviates from the plan, then you're deviating, not trying to simply make something up and making mistakes as you go.

If you taser someone, then you'll need to restrain them, unless you are going to run away. Do you know how to properly restrain someone? Do you have proper restraints? I promise you, after you use a taser, that person, if not restrained, will want and will try to take a piece of you with them. They typically won't want to just run away.

For me, for home defense, I have a nice Kimber that I've had for a while, that I have shot a lot and I'm comfortable with. It also has a light attached and I'm very comfortable activating it and manipulating it. I test the light every day, but I also have a back up flashlight near by that I can shoot with, since lights fail. Why? You have to be able to identify your target, or you are simply a danger to everyone around you. The light can and will disorientate a suspect.

My plan after that includes a few different steps then an average person, and the rest of the house and perimeter will be secured before moving on. Never assuming that there is a single suspect. but the end story is that the suspect will be handcuffed while the local PD/FD/EMS arrives. The suspect will be given first aid. If shot, the best first aid I can administer including clotting agents, bandages and as much as I can do to keep the suspect alive. Once that is done, custody is given over, I know that I will have to surrender my pistol and light to the PD for their investigation. I know I will get it back at some later date, but it may be a few years.

I know that an investigation will be started and that it will be treated as a murder or ag-assault by the detectives. I know that crime scene will show up. I know that a lot of pictures will be taken. I also know that my lawyer will be called. I know that the media will probably show up and I have to be prepared to see them out there and have them calling my unlisted number. I know nothing will be said to them. I know that the DA will review the case and may even present it to a grand jury. I know that there will be serious amounts of clean up for my house. Biological debris stains and smells horrible. Flooring will have to be ripped out and replaced with in a day or two. Same with any furniture used and the damaged part of the house the suspect made entry with.

I know that all in all this process will cost me on average $50,000 out of my pocket. I also know that it is worth it to protect myself, my wife and my unborn son.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kbordson 8]

The reason that I picked Taser (or less than lethal) on domestic disputes is because in considering the situation, I do NOT think that I would or could shoot my husband. BUT, I would have no second thoughts about bringing him down if he meant to attack me (which at this time I could not even envision - for many rational reasons. But sometimes thought isn't rational) He is bigger than I am, he is stronger and having spared with him a bit... yeah - he's won. So I would need some other advantage to remove myself from that situation. I would want something less than lethal, that I would actually be willing to use on someone that I loved... but was attacked by. It would decrease my moment of hesitation.

I wouldn't necessarily take the time to restrain him. We have zipties,I could set up a restraint and notification/arrest. But I would rather LEAVE and very quickly get myself to a situation that would be SAFE. (but... not the local LE, not to insult, but I have other issues that I would need to consider)