The Best Home Defense Weapon?

[steve1 5]

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Your argument assumes black and white.

If someone is in your house then they intend you or your family harm.

I've no doubt that you won't be shifted from this position.

I much prefer the hiding / calling the police option and letting them take the bloody TV rather than becoming a murderer based upon an assumption. That's why it's insured, after all.

The point is that shooting someone should be a last resort, not a first one. What the hell is 'a reasonable assumption' and does your definition of one meet everyone elses?

I doubt if everyone is assuming that they plan to blow the hell out of everyone who breaks in. I too thinks it should be a last resort, to use a firearm. But if someone won't stop, I have every intention of pulling the trigger on them. A person doesn't have to be a victim.

I think you may be the one who has black and white thinking on this....

[Kennedy 0]

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Your argument assumes black and white.

So does yours and McDrees, though I doubt you see it. It may surprise you, but criminals are not the sort of folks who rise to the occasion or live up to your greatest expectations. Breaking and entering is bad. Most who do that will fuck like hell if they find the house is occupied. Anyone who does not either (A) thinks they can overcome the resident or (B) is there to target the resident.

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If someone is in your house then they intend you or your family harm.

I've no doubt that you won't be shifted from this position.

He doesn't know what the felon thinks, but it's reasonable to NOT assume the very best of them. Some of them can go from burglary to home invasion to some sort of personal violent felony very quickly.

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I much prefer the hiding / calling the police option and letting them take the bloody TV rather than becoming a murderer based upon an assumption. That's why it's insured, after all.

I don't know about you, but if all my deterents fail, I take action. If I have time and disatnce, call police and then very clearly and loudly announcing that I am armed and willing to defend myself. If they run, let someone else catch them. If they stay, they can chose between responding officers weapons and mine. If they attack, I win.

You see, it's not that everyone who owns a gun is just waiting for a chance to go out and shoot someone. I think you'll find most who own a gun hope to God they never have to shot someone. But they know that someday it may be required of them. I simply refuse to place myself at the mercy of felons.

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The point is that shooting someone should be a last resort, not a first one. What the hell is 'a reasonable assumption' and does your definition of one meet everyone elses?

Defining "reasonable" takes a surprising large number of unreasonable men and women an unreasonable amount of time to define. They are call juries. You don't have the luxury of waiting for them to decide before you defend yourself.

Also, you'll find that simple concepts like "last resort" are not so easy to define, either.

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[justinb138 0]

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Are their any other cartridges that this applies to. Does the 357 have a longer case than needed? It is much longer than a 38 special.....This has my curiosity going.....

I believe the .45LC is the same way, except there are quite a few revolvers out there that are capable of shooting some very hot .45LC loads (near .44mag velocities, which is a similarly sized cartridge). With standard loads, they're two entirely different beasts.

Whether or not a .357 has a longer case than needed depends on what powder you're using with it.

A good comparison with the .38/.357 would be the .45LC and the .454 Casull. Recoil on standard .45LC loads is light, but the .454 is based on the same cartridge and it's a monster. I think the .460S&W mag is based on the .45LC as well.

[steve1 5]

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Not really.

The .38 spl is a leftover from the blackpowder days (actually a descendant of a leftover). Powder was a lot bulkier back then, and cases had to be bigger.

Check out loading data for both (performance data too) and you'll see that the 9 and 38 are pretty similar.

[justinb138 0]

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I've got a can of Blue Dot somewhere. I meant to get it out last night and pour out some charges in these three cases, to see how much it would fill up those cases. Maybe someone who does a lot of pistol reloading can comment on all this.

From Handloads.com:

Blue Dot .38sp

110gr. JHP - 7.8gr
125gr. JSP - 7.3gr
158gr. LSWC - 6.1gr

Here are some other powders with the 158gr. bullet:

Clays - 3.7gr
H4227 - 10gr.
WIN 231 - 3.1gr

Powder density makes a huge difference.

Given the density of Blue dot (.0865cc/gr), the load above with the 110gr bullet would be .67cc's of powder.

According to an online source referencing one of Lee's manuals, the .38sp has a useful case capacity of 1.30cc's - so it should be about half full.

The same load of TiteGroup would be about .3 to .4cc's, taking up a quarter to third of the case volume.

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Disclaimer: The above loading data was quickly looked up on another site. Don't try reloading any ammo with those numbers without consulting an actual reloading reference first.

[Rstanley0312 1]

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Just read another opinion in Shooting Times.

Didn't bother catching the author. Conclusion? Double action revolver. Reasons, simplicity and short. Preferred those that used moon clip for reloading. Anybody can use it, no mags to screw up, simple action, enough shots, can lean barrel against door frame or funiture without a failure to go into battery. No long gun to swing or long handle for the bad guy to grab.

I'm comfortable with my glock. But my revolvers are good too. And both are easier to secure from the kids than a long gun. Reason the shotgun's in the safe.

Supported AR style for civil unrest protection, like Katrina.

YMMV, pick one.

+1 I like my shotgun but I love my revolvers! No screw ups.... if something goes wrong just squeeze the trigger again. The "Crimson Trace" grip is great to have on my .38 too!

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
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[murrays 0]

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Although, his referencing other studies proves insightful, if you go back and reference the actual studies, most of which are well known and have helped shape the way we train today.

Scott,

I am curious whether you feel the chapter on edged weapons in "On Killing" holds water or not. (Chapter 5 - Killing at Edged-Weapons Range:An "Intimate Brutality")

Regards,

Murray

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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So when in doubt, you kill him first and ask questions later?

If someone breaks into my home, I assume that he wants to steal from me. Why in the hell would someone want to kill me? Sometimes you need to relax and stop being so paranoid...

If someone breaks into my home when I am home, I will assume that they are willing to do whatever it takes to get away.

That will include assuming they are wliling to hurt or kill me. There have been two cases in my home town (small town in NE Wisconsin) where unarmed women were killed by burglars. The one they caught (about 15 years later) admitted he killed her because he didn't want her to identify him. The other one hasn't been caught.

My first act will be to call the police, but they may not arrive in time.

I will arm myself and warn the intruder to leave or risk being shot, but if they continue to act aggressivley, then THEY leave me no choice but to defend myself.

Killing someone would be a last resort, and have very serious consequences, but it beats getting killed.
See AggieDave's post earlier in this thread, and my post HERE about self defense.

I was told to expect to spend about $20k if I have to shoot someone. AggieDave says $50k, and I won't agrue with him.

There is also no guarantee that a prosecutor, judge and jury will find that my actions were reasonable and within the law.

That means I may spend quite a lot of time behind bars.

It's a very high price, and will make me refrain from using deadly force in all but the most serious situations.
But it is a price I would be willing to pay for my life and that of my loved ones.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Well, I went home last night with every intention of proving Wolfriverjoe wrong. I dug out my trusty reloading book. For whatever reason I have never compared the ballistics of a 9mm to a 38 special. Just as he said the velocity of a 9mm is almost identical to a 38 special. Did I ever put my foot in my mouth. Just when I thought I knew it all....I find out I don't know much about pistols...

...When you look at most rifle cases that is true. The case is mostly full of powder. If there was too much extra room the primer can ignite too much powder, at once, causing enough pressure to even blow up a rifle.

Apparently that is not the case with pistol loads. There has got to be a lot of extra room in a 38 special case. A 9mm and 38 special often use identical powder charges. All I can figure is that pistol powder is so fast burning, that a little extra room doesn't matter. Maybe someone can set me straight on all this, because I don't know a whole lot about pistol reloading.

And then there is the 357. It is even longer than the 38 special. I imagine the only reason they made it longer was so you didn't fire 357 loads in a 38 special. So, there must be a lot of extra room in that cartridge too. At least with most pistol powders that would be the case.

Thanks, Wolfriverjoe for bringing me up to speed on the 38 special.

That's what I like about these forums....I'm always learning something new.

You're welcome. I'm just glad you took it the way I meant it (information) rather than as a poke at your ego

So...
The empty space isn't that big of a deal from a safety standpoint. The difference in pressure isn't enough to put the gun at risk, and if there's that much empty space, there isn't a whole lot of powder to begin with. My .30-06 loads for my Garand are pretty light, and have space in them.

It does affect consistency and therefore accuracy. Some folks use an inert filler to top the case off (believe it or not, Cream of Wheat is one of the most popular).
The Cowboy Action Shooters (old west reenactors) use really light loads in really big cases, and sure enough somebody developed a very bulky smokeless powder so that they can fill the cases to capacity.

The .357 is 1/8" (0.125) longer than the .38, just like you said, to keep them from being loaded into the wrong gun.
Back in the '30's they came up with the .357's "father", the .38/.44.
.44 special pressures in a .38 cartrdge. It was exactly the same size as a 38, but was only supposed to be fired in a certain pistol (what was later the Smith and Wesson "N" frame).

I guess product liability lawsuits weren't as common back then.
They lengthened the case and re-designated it as the .357 because too many people blew up too many guns.

And yes, the 38 and 357 can be a little spooky to load. You can't see the powder level in the case very easily.
My Dillon 650 has a Powder Check feature that is a nice feature.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[BIGUN 1,399]

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I am curious whether you feel the chapter on edged weapons in "On Killing" holds water or not. (Chapter 5 - Killing at Edged-Weapons Range:An "Intimate Brutality")

It does not.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[AggieDave 6]

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I am curious whether you feel the chapter on edged weapons in "On Killing" holds water or not. (Chapter 5 - Killing at Edged-Weapons Range:An "Intimate Brutality")
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It does not.

Sure it does, water is a fairly porous material and absorbs a surprisingly large amount of water.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[steve1 5]

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Seriously, why would anyone break into your house in the middle of the night to kill you? Do you know a lot of people that want you dead? Are you a gang member or something? Maybe a CIA agent? Or is there a serial killer on a killing spree in your neighbourhood?