Downwind Landing Training

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

>just like spin training for pilots was found to have killed more people
> than it saved, and keeping pilots from getting into spins in the
>first place was better.

Right. But if the number of people killed in spins went up dramatically after such training was removed, I bet they'd reconsider very quickly. And right now, the number of people getting killed doing low turns is going up dramatically.

The cure for that is to indoctrinate them not to make low turns, not to force them to make downwind landings for practice.

It is just an assumption that fear of downwind landings is the cause of killer low turns. I'd anticipate a rash of broken ankles, arms and wrists if downwind landings were mandated as a license requirement.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,998]

>Maybe I'm a little dense at this moment, what exactly needs to be
>taught for doing a downlanding? Fly downwind, pick your feet up, flare
>and slide.

Basically, yes, it's easy. But like anything else, you have to plan for them and then fly the plan. Too many people have exactly one plan, which is "always land into the wind." Being more flexible in planning is good; practicing it once or twice is even better.

[billvon 2,998]

>The cure for that is to indoctrinate them not to make low turns,
>not to force them to make downwind landings for practice.

?? You just said that training pilots NOT to get into spins (presumably by practicing good airspeed maintenance during engine outs etc) was safer than actually practicing spins. The analogy would be to practice downwind landings, so they don't have to practice low turns to get into the wind. I suspect you would agree that not teaching spins AND not teaching the manuevers required to avoid them would be a disaster.

People don't have to make major low turns, but people WILL have to land downwind at some point in their skydiving careers. Not practicing them ensures that their first attempt will be under high-stress conditions.

> I'd anticipate a rash of broken ankles, arms and wrists if
> downwind landings were mandated as a license requirement.

Good thing no one's suggesting that then!

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

>The cure for that is to indoctrinate them not to make low turns,
>not to force them to make downwind landings for practice.

?? You just said that training pilots NOT to get into spins (presumably by practicing good airspeed maintenance during engine outs etc) was safer than actually practicing spins. The analogy would be to practice downwind landings, so they don't have to practice low turns to get into the wind. I suspect you would agree that not teaching spins AND not teaching the manuevers required to avoid them would be a disaster.

People don't have to make major low turns, but people WILL have to land downwind at some point in their skydiving careers. Not practicing them ensures that their first attempt will be under high-stress conditions.

> I'd anticipate a rash of broken ankles, arms and wrists if
> downwind landings were mandated as a license requirement.

Good thing no one's suggesting that then!

I still agree with Makeithappen.

I do not see downwind landings as the alternative to low turns. I see better decision making at 1000ft as the alternative to both.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tbrown 26]

We teach a baseball slide method, which seems to work well and minimizes the chances of back & tailbone injuries compared to a butt-slide.

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

People don't have to make major low turns, but people WILL have to land downwind at some point in their skydiving careers. Not practicing them ensures that their first attempt will be under high-stress conditions.

In that respect it doesn't differ that much from other emergency*) procedures (i.e. cutting away a malfunctioned main canopy)

We teach this all the time with a suspended harness, stressing the necessity to be altitude aware, pull the handles in the right order etcetera.
Come to think of it, you could use the suspended harness for 'down wind training' in much the same way...(like where are your hands when you flare a canopy and it keeps going at 20+mph? Where are your feet, what happens with the pattern you are flying etcetera...)
When it is 'engraved in my system' to check my altitude before cutting away, how hard can it be to do the same with 'the last turn prior to landing'?

Some things in skydiving will inevitably be experienced under high stress conditions - we can train and explain, but when then planet starts to spin after opening or the pilotchute wont come out of its pocket our students are fundamentally on their own...

Those that can't stand the heath maybe should stay out of the kitchen...

*) though "emergency" may be a bit of an exageration when it is about downwind landings, the stretch of unobstructed landing area I need and the speed I make over the ground makes me keen on avoiding them as soon as there is significant wind. Maybe it's an age thing, but you'll have to put large obstacles in my landing path before I consider them when the wind is above 10 knts...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Yossarian 0]

another thing i was told about PLFs is that they were also designed bearing in mind having an empty container on your back with the reserve on the front, therefore when you roll you can twist your back on the reserve (especially with bulky student canopies). i experienced this as a student and my back was quite uncomfortable