47% of al households will pay not tax in 2009

[Ron 10]

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Prove it

You are a smart man... Use the search feature on your own.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,027]

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>Creating a federal system will not change this, it will simply relocate the
>financial burden.

Agreed. It will basically provide a formalized way for such expenses to be paid, replacing the informal method of bankruptcy, overcrowding and higher insurance rates we have now.

>Is that really such a large difference?

In effect? No. In practice? It will save the money currently spent on bankruptcy lawyers, hospital de-commissioning, paperwork etc.

I believe treatment in the ER is much more expensive than in the family practice doctor's office. The current system is just about the most expensive way of providing "free" health care to the poor that the human mind can devise.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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Prove it

You are a smart man... Use the search feature on your own.

You made the claim, the burden is on you.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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I wonder how many here received "free" public education but didn't care how it went.

By the responses from the right: quite a few.

I hate to interrupt your high-fiving, but public education costs are largely funded by state and local property taxes, which means if you went to the schools, you paid for it. Or, more accurately, your parents paid for it, and they were the ones in charge of making sure YOU got THEIR money's worth. My parents actually researched high schools and moved to a neighborhood so my sisters and I would go to a particular public high school. They also paid more in property taxes at that home.

This is in contrast to... well... anything financed by federal income tax. Fortunately we have a republic instead of a democracy so the "bread and circuses" effect is usually limited. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to ignore the possibility or mock those who would bring it up.

Tax is tax is tax. Free public education is free to the recipient.

I received a free education all the way to PhD, and I valued it highly.

I suspect many of our right wing friends here also received free public education and are in denial that they are the better for it.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TomAiello 26]

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Tax is tax is tax. Free public education is free to the recipient.

That's semantic nonsense. You pay taxes for the services you receive. If you pay your taxes, you are paying for that education--it's not free.

Also, I'm pretty sure that virtually every graduate of those "free" public universities did pay some fees along the way. Doesn't your school charge it's students something?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[kbordson 8]

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I wonder how many here received "free" public education but didn't care how it went.

By the responses from the right: quite a few.

I hate to interrupt your high-fiving, but public education costs are largely funded by state and local property taxes, which means if you went to the schools, you paid for it. Or, more accurately, your parents paid for it

And they also paid for the public option EVEN IF they chose to send their child(ren) to a private school. So for 8 years, we paid for the "free" public education, but didn't personally receive a direct benefit.... until I actually begged to go to the public High School. (I didn't thrive very well in the Catholic grade schools) And honestly, I was VERY appreciative of that "free" education and made it a point to get as much out of that as possible (as proven by GPA)

[kallend 2,027]

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I wonder how many here received "free" public education but didn't care how it went.

By the responses from the right: quite a few.

I hate to interrupt your high-fiving, but public education costs are largely funded by state and local property taxes, which means if you went to the schools, you paid for it. Or, more accurately, your parents paid for it

And they also paid for the public option EVEN IF they chose to send their child(ren) to a private school. So for 8 years, we paid for the "free" public education, but didn't personally receive a direct benefit.... until I actually begged to go to the public High School. (I didn't thrive very well in the Catholic grade schools) And honestly, I was VERY appreciative of that "free" education and made it a point to get as much out of that as possible (as proven by GPA)

I put "free" in quotes because, as with all "free" things, someone pays. It makes no difference whether the tax is local, state or federal.

If were going to play the game of discriminating between "free" and "free" according to who receives what and who pays the tax, the OP is even more utter nonsense than I originally thought.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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Tax is tax is tax. Free public education is free to the recipient.

That's semantic nonsense. You pay taxes for the services you receive.

No, that would be called a "user fee". Taxes are paid for the benefit of the citizens of the country as a whole, not specifically for the benefit of the taxpayer.

Once you've paid your tax dollar to the govt. you have no more right to it than anyone else.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TomAiello 26]

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Once you've paid your tax dollar to the govt. you have no more right to it than anyone else.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about that.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[kallend 2,027]

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Once you've paid your tax dollar to the govt. you have no more right to it than anyone else.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about that.

Fair enough, if you want to suffer under that delusion.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lucky... 0]

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No, I'm not.

I'm asking if anyone can explain a reason for increasing the involvement rate of the people in the government.

Oh sure, that's easy; there are millions of people w/o access to HC - need we say more?

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Further, I'm asking if that reason is compelling enough that we ought to be somehow pursuing it as a public policy.

Not to people, like you, who have access to HC. What I find refreshing are guys with attitudes like Bill and Kallend who make in higher brkts and who have HC, but want it opened up for everyone. It's so American for people to say, "I have it, fuck those who don't; not my problem - personal responsibility, etc." Truth is virt all will do better if/when a public option is here. They will force your insurer to up or out.

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Personally, I'd rejoice if the government would just leave me the hell alone. I'd happily spend the rest of my days having zero involvement in government, not thinking about government policies, and minding my own damn business. Unfortunately, I think that's unlikely to happen.

There's a lakefront or some nice place in Montana waiting for you. No one to fuck with you and if they do - shoot em. Just fade away from taxes and all that BS. But if you play in a civilized society, you must contribute to the defense and social svs pool and draw advantage from it if needed.

[Lucky... 0]

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I hate to interrupt your high-fiving, but public education costs are largely funded by state and local property taxes, which means if you went to the schools, you paid for it. Or, more accurately, your parents paid for it, and they were the ones in charge of making sure YOU got THEIR money's worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States

Education in the United States is mainly provided by the public sector, with control and funding coming from three levels: federal, state, and local. Child education is compulsory. A sub-type of compulsory education is public education.

Do you have any data as to the proportion of expenses bore? I didn't see any, but the feds do pay and that goes on the rubber check. Look at the recent stimulus additon to pay someteachers salaries to keep them on.

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My parents actually researched high schools and moved to a neighborhood so my sisters and I would go to a particular public high school. They also paid more in property taxes at that home.

That's real nice and all, but I was rippewd and had to fend for myself as a kid; I basically had no parents, which is why I don'y pay hommage to the diddy rule. Also, I had to run away to the military when I was 17 and get my own education as an adult. So I envy your position, but in soooo many cases a little utopian.

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This is in contrast to... well... anything financed by federal income tax. Fortunately we have a republic instead of a democracy so the "bread and circuses" effect is usually limited. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to ignore the possibility or mock those who would bring it up.

Well don't act as if the feds aren't involved, they are in big ways from a finacial aspect and a regulatory aspect.

So to answer teh original question of: I wonder how many here received "free" public education but didn't care how it went.

I would say I was one, as my parents didn't care/abandoned and no one was tehre locally or federally. So I had to take the concern for myself later on, but that isn't an ideal system. If the school was MORE involved then a lot of injustices wouldn't have happened. So I disagree, I want more involvement where it is necessary.

[kbordson 8]

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If the school was MORE involved then a lot of injustices wouldn't have happened. So I disagree, I want more involvement where it is necessary.

And I wanted LESS.

I detested the nuns CONSTANTLY limiting and restricting my thoughts and deeds.

To each... there is a balance.

[FallingOsh 0]

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>I don't understand why you think opening up free HC will reduce
>costs or keep hospitals from being overwhelmed.

Do you understand that many people consider themselves to have free health care right now? (i.e. just go and don't pay.)

Yes, I understand that. I also understand that overwhelming the system is breaking it. Offering free HC will not reduce that.

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>What, specifically, in the HC bill will reduce costs?

An insurance exchange that requires coverage of pre-existing conditions will reduce costs for people with said pre-existing conditions.

Requiring insurance companies to pick up more patients who will undoubtedly have more claims will not reduce costs. It will do the exact opposite. The people who weren't paying before won't be paying now so cost isn't reduced for them. The increased patients and associated costs will be passed on to people who do pay so cost doesn't decrease for them. Nothin about that reduces cost. It increases cost and shifts it to others.

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A public option will provide competition to private companies; competition reduces costs.

Like it did in Hawaii?

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Standardization of reporting will save billions in clerical costs.

Why isn't that done now? You think enrolling tens of millions of new people in a government run program will reduce clerical costs?

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Things not in the bill that would reduce costs:

Tort reform

Cost reporting transparency

They're not in the bill so it's invalid

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Stay positive and love your life.

[Lucky... 0]

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If the school was MORE involved then a lot of injustices wouldn't have happened. So I disagree, I want more involvement where it is necessary.

And I wanted LESS.

I detested the nuns CONSTANTLY limiting and restricting my thoughts and deeds.

To each... there is a balance.

Well yea, religious oppression is nutty. My pareents criminal endagerment/abandonment is far extreme, nutty religious schools are abusive in their own rights; I just wanted "normal" parents and got shit. All we seem to have in this country are extremists.

[FallingOsh 0]

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>>>No sense of ownership = no respect

Absolutely. How does one treat a rental car versus their car?

Check out a housing project. No ownership. They go to shit because there is no pride of ownership.

How about a public restroom? No thanks unless aboslutely necessary.

Or the public air?

Or a public swimming pool? Who pisses in their bathtub?

Ownership gives people something to take care of. Neglect results from not caring. Caring results from having something to lose.

So you could say that because the poor don't have basis HC as would every other NORMAL industrialized nation does, they don't have the same ownership feeling as they have been disenfranchised and don't care. I like your logic, counselor.

I could say that people who will receive 'free' HC won't worry about how it's paid for as much as those who are actually paying for it.

Which is NOT the same as the claim in the OP.

I wonder how many here received "free" public education but didn't care how it went.

Do you get a better education in public schools or private schools? Compare the dropout or GED rates between public school students and private school students. How many people from public school go on to college compared to private school?

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Stay positive and love your life.

[cliffwhite 0]

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http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/30/pf/taxes/who_pays_taxes/index.htm

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In 2009, roughly 47% of households, or 71 million, will not owe any federal income tax, according to estimates by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

when you get something for free, you're not that intested in how it runs. If you pay for something, you're more interested in making it work right. With that many people not paying taxes,

Someone I used to jump with once told me he'd do free jump seminars, but people don't respect your time if you're giving it away to them.

LOL! Apples and oranges.

Jump seminars and taxes.

You are probably not required to pay federal income tax.

If the dick head wants to charge fellow skydivers for info he was taught for free?
Let's all shit in a bag , get in the plane ...


Blues,
Cliff

2muchTruth

[Royd 0]

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I wonder how many here received "free" public education but didn't care how it went.

I think those statistics, are readily available, to a man, like you.

[Royd 0]

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Do you understand that many people consider themselves to have free health care right now? (i.e. just go and don't pay.)

And they abuse it, because, as Barack says, They have no skin, in the game. That's the point of the OP.

[Royd 0]

I wonder how many here received "free" public education but didn't care how it went.

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By the responses from the right: quite a few.

Please don't go down that road, Mr. Spellcheck/Proofread.

[champu 1]

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I hate to interrupt your high-fiving, but public education costs are largely funded by state and local property taxes, which means if you went to the schools, you paid for it. Or, more accurately, your parents paid for it, and they were the ones in charge of making sure YOU got THEIR money's worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States

Education in the United States is mainly provided by the public sector, with control and funding coming from three levels: federal, state, and local. Child education is compulsory. A sub-type of compulsory education is public education.

Do you have any data as to the proportion of expenses bore? I didn't see any, but the feds do pay and that goes on the rubber check. Look at the recent stimulus additon to pay someteachers salaries to keep them on.

I should have said "state sales tax and local property tax" rather than just "state and local property tax," but here is what I was reading through when I wrote the response. It's somewhat Illinois-centric but there's a great map on page 12 that shows the breakdown of federal, state, and local funding for education across the country.

Dr. Kallend argues that a tax is a tax is a tax, but the truth is, the further that a dollar gets from its taxpayer, the less likely it becomes that that dollar will be spent in that taxpayer's interest (directly or indirectly.) This makes taxpayers understandably skeptical of federal social programs intended to benefit "the masses." I think that's the concern at the heart of the thread. You and he can think yourselves too altruistic to be pestered by such concerns, but well... flies, honey, vinegar, etc.

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My parents actually researched high schools and moved to a neighborhood so my sisters and I would go to a particular public high school. They also paid more in property taxes at that home.

That's real nice and all, but I was rippewd and had to fend for myself as a kid; I basically had no parents, which is why I don'y pay hommage to the diddy rule. Also, I had to run away to the military when I was 17 and get my own education as an adult. So I envy your position, but in soooo many cases a little utopian.

It sounds like you went through something very similar to what my father faced. He went from a bad send off, to giving his kids every advantage he could in just one generation. I'm thankful for the kind of effort he put in and owe a lot of where I am now to him. I'm reminded of my sig line when I think about it.

[Lucky... 0]

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I wonder how many here received "free" public education but didn't care how it went.

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By the responses from the right: quite a few.

Please don't go down that road, Mr. Spellcheck/Proofread.

So posts that are quickly written and sometimes have a few grammatical errors that are loaded with substance and citations are not intelligently written, versus quick one-liners from righties? Yea, I guess if you're out of gas you defer to grammatical mistakes.

[Lucky... 0]

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I hate to interrupt your high-fiving, but public education costs are largely funded by state and local property taxes, which means if you went to the schools, you paid for it. Or, more accurately, your parents paid for it, and they were the ones in charge of making sure YOU got THEIR money's worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States

Education in the United States is mainly provided by the public sector, with control and funding coming from three levels: federal, state, and local. Child education is compulsory. A sub-type of compulsory education is public education.

Do you have any data as to the proportion of expenses bore? I didn't see any, but the feds do pay and that goes on the rubber check. Look at the recent stimulus additon to pay someteachers salaries to keep them on.

I should have said "state sales tax and local property tax" rather than just "state and local property tax," but here is what I was reading through when I wrote the response. It's somewhat Illinois-centric but there's a great map on page 12 that shows the breakdown of federal, state, and local funding for education across the country.

Dr. Kallend argues that a tax is a tax is a tax, but the truth is, the further that a dollar gets from its taxpayer, the less likely it becomes that that dollar will be spent in that taxpayer's interest (directly or indirectly.) This makes taxpayers understandably skeptical of federal social programs intended to benefit "the masses." I think that's the concern at the heart of the thread. You and he can think yourselves too altruistic to be pestered by such concerns, but well... flies, honey, vinegar, etc.

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My parents actually researched high schools and moved to a neighborhood so my sisters and I would go to a particular public high school. They also paid more in property taxes at that home.

That's real nice and all, but I was rippewd and had to fend for myself as a kid; I basically had no parents, which is why I don'y pay hommage to the diddy rule. Also, I had to run away to the military when I was 17 and get my own education as an adult. So I envy your position, but in soooo many cases a little utopian.

It sounds like you went through something very similar to what my father faced. He went from a bad send off, to giving his kids every advantage he could in just one generation. I'm thankful for the kind of effort he put in and owe a lot of where I am now to him. I'm reminded of my sig line when I think about it.

You're really lucky, I don't talk to my so-called parents and refer to them as sperm donor/egg donor. A parent doesn't have to have 1 shred of genetic relation to be a parent, conversely that isn't a necessary qualification either.

I see a lot of that tho, people of a generation with shit for parents can overcompensate and spoil their kids, then those kids grow up and ignore/abuse their kids, those kids spoil their kids, etc.

I just say I lost the lottery in the parent pool. They're great citizens, law abiding, but shit for parents.

[marks2065 0]

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So it's all the illegal's fault. There's a well thought out and comprehensive analysis of the issue.

no, there are alot of issues to deal with, but i thought a good place to start would be with the law breakers and reevaluate after that is fixed. and it would not cost us any money or the set up of any agency, everything is already in place, just make people do there jobs.

[marks2065 0]

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>the poor do have health care in the US. they just don't pay for it.

Correct. Result - bankrupted hospitals, doctors and urgent care facilities, skyrocketing health care costs and overcrowded ER's. We should come up with a better solution.

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and the dem health care plan would just shift the burden to the healthy, tax paying american, with uncle sam controlling the whole system. sounds like a good fix to me not! and still leave over 20 million uninsure according to the cbo.

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