pirana 0 #26 October 28, 2009 Scientologists are full of shit everywhere. It is an organization set up explicitly for the purpose of bilking people. The French government simply decided to do something about it. The foundations of the Catholic, Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, and many other traditional faiths are so different that comparisons and analogies using them are not valid. Becoming familiar with a little history and applying common sense should make that clear to anyone. I'm not a supporter of organized religion; but I can tell the difference between a scam to separate people from their money and a call to spirituality (even if my personal opinion is that the calling is misguided at the least and deceptive at worst). Who in here truly believes Scientology to be a religion?" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #27 October 28, 2009 QuoteIt is an organization set up explicitly for the purpose of bilking people. Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but... QuoteWho in here truly believes Scientology to be a religion? ... FWIW, at least tens of thousands of people consider themselves to be Scientologists (possibly millions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Membership_statistics Maybe the question is begged: can an organization set up explicitly for the purpose of bilking people morph into a religion? In this context, I also note that some mainstream religions and/or churches, between membership dues, income-based contributions, "voluntary" contributions (with plenty of intra-group peer pressure), building fees, religious education fees, mission and program fees, etc., etc., wind up charging their members huge amounts of money. So I really don't think a single bright-line definition will work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #28 October 28, 2009 QuoteMaybe the question is begged: can an organization set up explicitly for the purpose of bilking people morph into a religion? Cue South Park: "Dumb, Dumb, Dumb, Dumb, Dumb!"-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #29 October 28, 2009 QuoteQuoteIt is an organization set up explicitly for the purpose of bilking people. Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but... QuoteWho in here truly believes Scientology to be a religion? ... FWIW, at least tens of thousands of people consider themselves to be Scientologists (possibly millions) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Membership_statistics Maybe the question is begged: can an organization set up explicitly for the purpose of bilking people morph into a religion? In this context, I also note that some mainstream religions and/or churches, between membership dues, income-based contributions, "voluntary" contributions (with plenty of intra-group peer pressure), building fees, religious education fees, mission and program fees, etc., etc., wind up charging their members huge amounts of money. So I really don't think a single bright-line definition will work. Agreed that modern religious organizations (at least here) have a business side to them. What I was more getting at is the intentions (and actions) evident when those religions started up. Their founding was not based on taking in money, even if that is one of their current activities that results from them having a business arm to their organizations. Scientology was established expressly for the purpose of making money, and as such should at the least be taxed as a business - and as a business would be considered very shady if not outright fraudulent. (Sort of like the folks that will "sell" a person a star and put their name on it). Strictly opinion - I believe the religions I mentioned would be around in some form or another even had they not developed poitical and business characteristics along the way. They would have far less institutionalized power; but would still provide spiritual governance for people looking for it Scientology on the other hand, does not appear to have had any interest in providing what they pass off as spiritual governance if not for being able to make money doing it. I know there are a good number of followers; but they are a tiny percent of the population. What I was asking is who here (visitors to this thread) believes it is a religion?" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #30 October 28, 2009 QuoteWhat I was asking is who here (visitors to this thread) believes it is a religion? If pressed for a simple "yes" or "no" answer, then I'd say it's a religion. With greater latitude to respond, I'd say that determining what is or is not a religion is a matter for the personal consideration of those who believe in that religion. From where I'm sitting, Scientology looks about as silly (or not) as lots of more popular religious groupings.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #31 October 28, 2009 I believe it is a religion. No matter how vociferously the christians bleat about how their ridiculous set of beliefs is different, it is not. If you think christanity is not principally about money you should go to a tent revival. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #32 October 28, 2009 QuoteIf you think Christianity is not principally about money you should go to a tent revival. or watch the evangelical programs on TV. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #33 October 28, 2009 Quote I know there are a good number of followers; but they are a tiny percent of the population. What I was asking is who here (visitors to this thread) believes it is a religion? Again, size is irrelevant. Either people have a right to believe or they don't. I know some highly successful (non hollywood) members of it. Apparently it works for them. I don't care if their mission is profit. That's true of every telepreacher. Let's not forget Oral Robert's - give me 8M$ or God will strike me down! As I alluded to earlier, I see more cause for attacking the way their army of lawyers goes after anyone that leaves the inner circle or anyone that releases their internal documents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
P-dro 0 #34 October 29, 2009 QuoteI believe it is a religion. No matter how vociferously the christians bleat about how their ridiculous set of beliefs is different, it is not. If you think christanity is not principally about money you should go to a tent revival. Hello, I am not a religous person myself, but I think if you come in Europe and see how the Christian church works here (I live in France), you'd see it's vastly different from its US counterparts. Concerning scientology they have been condemned for extorting tens of thousand of dollars from people selling bogus devices and "lessons", and after sucking them dry threatening and blackmailing them an their families. They use tremendous psychological pressure to isolate their member from their entourage, so they can be more efficently milked. It has nothing to do with any form of religion I know, except if you count organized crime as a religion... You simply cannot compare other traditionnal cults with scientology. Beyond that, I know there is a lot of tele-evangelist in the US which case is not as clear cut. But even ads on the TV requesting donation has nothing to do with extortion.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #35 October 29, 2009 QuoteThey use tremendous psychological pressure to isolate their member from their entourage, so they can be more efficently milked. Pffft. In the US, we've got that down to an art form. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #36 October 29, 2009 Have you ever heard of an indulgence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
P-dro 0 #37 October 30, 2009 QuoteHave you ever heard of an indulgence? Hmmm, in this context ? it was when the catholic church sold absolution? But it was in the 16/17th century.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #38 October 30, 2009 I think there is some confusion on this thread perhaps caused by people not reading the actual news story. The French government prosecuted the church for fraud in placing undue pressure on people to give up large amounts of money. The prosecution asked for the church to be disbanded and the government refused to do this. They were not prosecuted for their doctrines. Of course their doctrines are ridiculous, but no more so than any other religion. The fact that one can point to L Ron Hubbard's commensts as undermining Scientology is valid , but there are many many other facts that undermine most other religions. The only differene betweena religion and a cult in my opinion is the number of members. Since the origin of most religions is lost in the distance past we can't say whehter or not they were set up charlatans like Hubbard or genuine nut cases like David Koresh. Im not sure it really matters anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
