FallingOsh 0 #26 November 22, 2009 Quote Hey based on cooked books and a mood in the country to go after the evildoers who were supposed to have WMD and had escaped to Iraq... It would have been political suicide in your horked up.. IF YOU AINT WITH US YOU IS AGIN US world Mikee. So the dems only voted that way to save their political careers. Very admirable... Quote So how many US troops are dead in Kosovo again since Clinton sent them there? So your opposition to war is based on the hindsite death toll. Just trying to figure this out. Quote Hell they even put us a statue to Clinton there in Kosovo.. when is the Bush Statue due for unveiling in Downtown Baghdad????? Your justification for Clinton's use of troops is based on a statue? If an Iraqi town put up a statue of Bush would you suddenly be ok with the Iraq war? I would guess no. You've tried to attack the Republicans as cowards when the majority of the volunteer military is conservative/republican. Not only that, but democratic politicians have sent just as many, if not more, troops into war than Republicans. Then you defend the dems by saying they approved troops for their political futures and statues being erected makes it ok. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #27 November 22, 2009 QuoteYour justification for Clinton's use of troops is based on a statue? If an Iraqi town put up a statue of Bush would you suddenly be ok with the Iraq war? I would guess no. You've tried to attack the Republicans as cowards when the majority of the volunteer military is conservative/republican. Not only that, but democratic politicians have sent just as many, if not more, troops into war than Republicans. Then you defend the dems by saying they approved troops for their political futures and statues being erected makes it ok. I guess you dont get the difference in the type of confilct that was K0sovo... and your glorius leaders reasons for going into Iraq. I think you will find the veterans who come home from this clusterfuck are going to hold those who ordered them there in a far different light. Want to bet they are not following you deadenders in droves as you believe they are???? I am saying the political reality of this country in 2002 and what the Administration could force on the country based on their position papers published in the 1990's....and a VERY CONVIENIENT series of events in 2001. AT that time it would have been political suicide to oppose going after the evildoers. Trouble is your ILK lied..surprise surprise... perhaps if some of them had been veterans they would not have been in as big a rush to enrich themselves and their buddies who have profited so handsomely from this war. When the chickensuit fits sooooo well I suppose it has to be worn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #28 November 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteHating war in no way implies that one likes oppression, slavery and genocide. If you have to choose between going to war, or enduring oppression, slavery and genocide - which do you choose? It is possible to hate them all. What's your point? You can hate them all, certainly. But if someone tries to force oppression, slavery and genocide upon you, are you willing to go to war to fight against that? What's your choice? Quote:"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #29 November 23, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Hating war in no way implies that one likes oppression, slavery and genocide. If you have to choose between going to war, or enduring oppression, slavery and genocide - which do you choose? It is possible to hate them all. What's your point? You can hate them all, certainly. But if someone tries to force oppression, slavery and genocide upon you, are you willing to go to war to fight against that? What's your choice? Yes, of course. As a last resort. But we were talking about the Iraq war, weren't we? Iraq wasn't a threat to us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #30 November 23, 2009 QuoteQuote:"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill This quote or excerpts of it frequently gets invoked. The full version of the quote from Mill's The Contest in America is more circumspect and qualified:“But war, in a good cause, is not the greatest evil which a nation can suffer. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war, is worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice – a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice – is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other." He was writing about those in the North who opposed the Civil War and those in the South who argued on economic grounds to the British to try to pursuade them to remain neutral in 1861 & 1862. He’s also arguing for the importance of *not* sacrificing principle -- what he calls “virtuous cause” -- for ease. Mill was also writing about battles, both metaphorical -- which was largely his domain as an English Parliamentarian and academic -- and literal, against those would advocate for (in the metaphorical & literary battle) and pursue war and tactics without “good cause” and through unethical means just as much as those who would avoid war. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #31 November 23, 2009 Quote But we were talking about the Iraq war, weren't we? Iraq wasn't a threat to us. If -- & that's a mighty big *if* -- I understand John's argument correctly, whether or not Iraq was a threat to us is not the main point. As I've read John's words over the years there is usually a strong underlying moral or ethical component. Going to war for moral or ethical ideals – to end oppression, slavery, and/or genocide – is humanitarian intervention or the basis of Wilsonian foreign policy, which (you may know) was the dominant liberal foreign policy of the 20th Century. (The counter to Wilsonian idealism is realpolitik, i.e., the dominant foreign policy of Kissinger, Pres Nixon, and Pres Reagan.) /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d16842 0 #32 November 23, 2009 Quote But i do think thats (WWII) the last war we had where there was a real bad guy and real good guys. It seems the world has forgotten Korea. There was a very clear bad guy. Unfortunately he remained in power. His son took his place and remains a mass killer, literally starving untold millions in North Korea. Just because the engagement got wrapped around the axle in other global issues doesn't change that basic fact. And there was an absolute bad guy and host of good guys in Desert Storm, where Kuwait was taken by military force, then released.Tom B Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #33 November 24, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf you have to choose between going to war, or enduring oppression, slavery and genocide - which do you choose? It is possible to hate them all. What's your point? You can hate them all, certainly. But if someone tries to force oppression, slavery and genocide upon you, are you willing to go to war to fight against that? What's your choice? Yes, of course. As a last resort. But we were talking about the Iraq war, weren't we? Iraq wasn't a threat to us. So if some group is being oppressed, enslaved and exterminated, then no one else should be allowed to come to their aid to save them? Everyone should have to sink or swim on their own? Quote: "First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist; Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist; Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew; Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me." - Pastor Martin Niemöller Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #34 November 24, 2009 QuoteBut freeing 25 million muslims from oppression, slavery and genocide in Iraq was a bad war? Sorry for the long delay in my replay has been a long week. The Iraq war was not started for those reasons, as you know. But I have said it before and will say it again. If in a few years Iraq becomes a real democracy with equal rights for all its citizens I would say a big thank you too GWB. Even as a side effect it would be something to celebrate. But here is a question for you John. How do you feel about our government when we support the bad guys like Saddam, or over throw a democratic government as was done in Iran for our own interest?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
