Ron 10 #126 November 25, 2009 Quotegoogle "France Health Care" and show me the articles that bash the French system, cause everything I found was a positive insight that we could learn something from. pages and pages of it. Clearly, my "googlefu" is greater than yours: From NPR: Quotehttp://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92419273 To fund universal health care in France, workers are required to pay about 21 percent of their income into the national health care system. Employers pick up a little more than half of that. (French employers say these high taxes constrain their ability to hire more people.) Last year, the national health system ran nearly $9 billion in debt. Although it is a smaller deficit than in previous years, it forced the government of President Nicolas Sarkozy to start charging patients more for some drugs, ambulance costs and other services. Debates over cost-cutting have become an expected part of the national dialogue on health care. Huh, runs a deficit and they have been jacking up fees to try and contain it, but without success. And companies are claiming the high taxes limit how many people they hire. WSJ: Quotehttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html In recent months, France imposed American-style "co-pays" on patients to try to throttle back prescription-drug costs and forced state hospitals to crack down on expenses. "A hospital doesn't need to be money-losing to provide good-quality treatment," President Nicolas Sarkozy thundered in a recent speech to doctors. The problem is that Assurance Maladie has been in the red since 1989. This year the annual shortfall is expected to reach €9.4 billion ($13.5 billion), and €15 billion in 2010, or roughly 10% of its budget. THIS year it will be 13.5B in the red..... that does not sound like a positive thing to me we could learn something from."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #127 November 25, 2009 Hmm, France has 63,000,000 people and runs a deficit of $9 billion. So if we ran the same system with 5 times as many people, we could expect a deficit of $45M That means if we cut the military budget ($518B in 2009) by only 10%, we could actually operate 'in the black' insofar as health care goes. And at the same time reduce our GDP spending on health care, increase our longevity, and reduce infant mortality. wow, thanks for making my point so clear, Ron. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #128 November 25, 2009 QuoteHmm, France has 63,000,000 people and runs a deficit of $9 billion. So if we ran the same system with 5 times as many people, we could expect a deficit of $45M That would be 45 BILLION deficit. 9B X 5 times more people = 45B, not 45M Quote wow, thanks for making my point so clear, Ron. Check your math."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #129 November 25, 2009 EXCUSE me, yes a typo, M instead of B I noticed that you only pointed out the math error - does that mean I have your agreement on the argument otherwise? It is still just 10% of the current military budget..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #130 November 25, 2009 Quote EXCUSE me, yes a typo, M instead of B Hell of an error don't ya think Quote I noticed that you only pointed out the math error - does that mean I have your agreement on the argument otherwise? It is still just 10% of the current military budget..... You have my agreement on the fact I think we should cut ALL unnecessary spending... to include some of the budget for the Military. We have to get spending under control. What you do not have my agreement on is that we should start yet another Govt program that is going to be a drain on the taxpayer. I take it then that you agree with me that France's system IS a drain? Is it that you just don't care about the cost?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 800 #131 November 25, 2009 Instead of bashing everyone else's responses, how about your perfect solution idea. I don't feel like arguing on the internet. Just a waste of time with someone that simply wants to argue. I still say it's not my employer's responsibility to provide health care for our society...seems more like a societal issue than a business issue. It would also go a long way towards making our nation more competitive on the global market to remove health care costs from their bottom line and stock values. But what do I know, I'm soon to be told how wrong that is too, I'm sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #132 November 25, 2009 QuoteFuck off #3 You know lots about war and fuck-all about peace I see that your politeness has worn off and you are now showing your true colors. You are displaying a lack of respect for people who disagree with your political views. And also a disdain for the military. I'll bet a lot of conservatives and veterans visit your drop zone, and you're tirades here against them in this kind of crude manner, does not serve you well. Most people get only one warning from a moderator for posting personal insults. So far, you've got three posted without a peep from them. Congratulations. Notice how I manage to express my disagreements with you, without resorting to the use of curse words? Who paid for your neck surgery after you screwed up a low hook turn a few years ago? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 800 #133 November 25, 2009 Personally as a vet, I've never been offended by anyone that thinks peace is a good idea. I'm not not seeing the disdain for the military here....In fact I always thought that is what we were defending, as well as the right for them to express those thoughts. If we refuse to allow people to express their beliefs and opinions... As much as I support a strong defense in this country...it wouldn't hurt us in the least to try to control or reduce spending in an intelligent way either. There's plenty of waste and abuse to examine very closely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #134 November 25, 2009 QuoteIt would also go a long way towards making our nation more competitive on the global market to remove health care costs from their bottom line and stock values. Did you somehow miss the part where the House bill mandates employer coverage for payroll above a certain amount?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #135 November 25, 2009 ahh yet another personal attack, coming from the guy condemning me for personal attacks. You quote, multiple times, things that I did not say. After doing that multiple times, it gets a 'fuck off' - as it rightly should I do not remember any 'town-hall' meeting that I ever went to, or any 'tea-bag party' for that matter being any sort of exercise in politeness. The conservative right-wing, is anything but polite these are tough times, and I am just as pissed off about things as you are. we just disagree on how to fix it. I have (IMO) addressed the issues, you have attacked my posts. Do you think health care is fine just the way it is? Perfect maybe? Does it need work? Do you have a solution? Any Solution? I have seen and heard nothing...... First Amendment - or do you now disagree with that too? Or only as long as I am the one using my rights.....? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #136 November 25, 2009 QuoteInstead of bashing everyone else's responses, how about your perfect solution idea. Sure, how about Tort reform which currently is not in any bill being proposed? Right now the avg ins bill for a Dr. is about 55k. How about online medical records to reduce expenses? How about the Govt offer tax incentives to employers that offer HC as part of employment? How about we allow groups to band together to form a group? The USPA could start a program for skydivers. The NASCAR crowd could for a group for rednecks...ect. Quote I still say it's not my employer's responsibility to provide health care for our society...seems more like a societal issue than a business issue Might want to look into the Baucus bill. It imposes FEES on company's that don't provide HC to it's employees. So IT thinks it is the responsibility of the employer. QuoteEmployers would have to pay an annual tax penalty if any of their workers receive subsidies to purchase insurance through the exchanges. The tax penalty assessed to the employer would be either $400 per worker (regardless of how many workers receive subsidies) or the average cost of subsidies in a given year multiplied by the number of workers receiving them in the company Employer A, who does not offer health coverage, has 100 employees, 30 of whom receive a tax credit for enrolling in a state exchange offered plan. If the flat dollar amount set by the Secretary of HHS for that year is $3,000,Employer A should owe $90,000. Since the maximum amount an employer must pay per year is limited to $400 multiplied by the total number of employees (for Employer A, 100), however, Employer A must pay only $40,000 Betcha didn't know that..... The bill REQUIRES employers to pay. And QuotePlus, if employers have 200 or more employees and offer health-insurance coverage, they would automatically have to enroll workers, although workers could opt out of coverage if they prove they have insurance from another source. So they HAVE to provide it under the Baucus bill. Betcha didn't know that either. QuoteIt would also go a long way towards making our nation more competitive on the global market to remove health care costs from their bottom line and stock values. Getting rid of unions would also go a long way.... Govt ownership of corporations would also go a long way. Do you also propose to privatize company's? At what point do you personally draw the line? Did you also know that the Baucus bill offers CREDIT to families that make 66,000.00 dollars a year? Did you know that the Baucus bill offers credits to company's that only have 20 EE's making less than 40k and full credit to company's with less than 10 that make less than 20k a year? So if you had a small company and had 10 employees.... Would you hire that 11th if it added a bunch more taxes to you? Did you know that under the Baucus bill medical company's would have to pay a "fee" to be in the US? QuoteBeginning in 2010, insurance companies would have to pay an annual total of $6 billion; pharmaceutical companies, $2.3 billion; medical-device makers, $4 billion; clinical laboratories, $750 million. How exactly is raising costs going to CUT prices.... That would be like Zhills paying more for gas and expecting the jump ticket prices to DROP. Did you know the Baucus plan has any amount your employer pays for your HC will now show up on YOUR W2? Why do you think they want it on YOUR W2?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #137 November 25, 2009 Quote After doing that multiple times, it gets a 'fuck off' - as it rightly should Not in a polite society. QuoteThe conservative right-wing, is anything but polite And here you are showing the liberal left is EXACTLY the same."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #138 November 25, 2009 no, I am showing that we are just as pissed off as you are.... I did not know that 'polite' was a requirement for the forum or the thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #139 November 25, 2009 Quoteno, I am showing that we are just as pissed off as you are.... I did not know that 'polite' was a requirement for the forum or the thread. Evidently, only when people are replying to YOU - unless you consider calling someone a "Reich-winger" to be polite discussion.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #140 November 25, 2009 QuoteSure, how about Tort reform which currently is not in any bill being proposed? Right now the avg ins bill for a Dr. is about 55k. http://www.centerjd.org/air/pr/AIRhealthcosts.pdf All studies indicate it is a very small amount compared to the total. Sad but probably true. It would help, but does not solve the problem. QuoteHow about online medical records to reduce expenses? How about the Govt offer tax incentives to employers that offer HC as part of employment? bravo, we agree on something. My Congresswoman says the same things. I always ask her what she has done with these issues in her terms in office - and I get the same blank stare. Republicans had lots of time to fix these things - no one initiated ANY of it. Sadly, the Dems are not going to either. QuoteHow about we allow groups to band together to form a group? The USPA could start a program for skydivers. The NASCAR crowd could for a group for rednecks...ect. many groups already do, or at least they try. Bottom line, unless EVERYONE is participating, it gets to be expensive for individuals and small entities to do any of that. EVERYONE participating is called single payer - what an idea. Health care costs 16-25% of GDP, depending on what study you look at - regardless of who or how it is paid for. Might as well have EVERYONE pay for it. And then EVERYONE can get it..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #141 November 25, 2009 QuoteSadly, the Dems are not going to either. Bravo.... We agree on something. QuoteEVERYONE participating is called single payer - what an idea. The single payer system has plenty of failures.... One being that the Govt fails at pretty much everything they try to run. The second being that the solution to a badly run system is often just adding more expense to the taxpayer. Quote Might as well have EVERYONE pay for it. And then EVERYONE can get it..... Being that only about 50% of Americans currently pay any Federal tax... Are you planning on taxing the other 50% or just taxing the 1st 50% more? Cause that's not really single payer if only half actually pay."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #142 November 26, 2009 Quoteahh yet another personal attack... I've made no personal attacks against you. QuoteYou quote, multiple times, things that I did not say. Please specify. Your past comments on various subjects are in this forum for all to see. QuoteAfter doing that multiple times, it gets a 'fuck off' - as it rightly should A polite person would know how to respond without vulgarity. QuoteThe conservative right-wing, is anything but polite So instead of taking the high moral ground, you become vulgar. QuoteFirst Amendment - or do you now disagree with that too? I've said nothing to deny you your right to free speech. However, as a businessman with a varied customer base, it might be unwise for you to alienate large segments of them. People may not like what they see of you here. (And that goes back to the politeness point.) QuoteI did not know that 'polite' was a requirement for the forum or the thread. Of course it's not. However, the manner in which one conducts himself here is part of the reputation that you build for your character. If you want people to think of you as a rude, vulgar person, then by all means continue as is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #143 November 26, 2009 Your one warning. Cut it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #144 November 26, 2009 Quote Your one warning. Cut it out. Glad you could make it for the after party!Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #145 November 26, 2009 An educational thread. I too though Tim was running for state office, not federal. As for the rest: Repubs and Dems have both been spending way too much we don't have. Whomever is in control at the time spends and the other side criticizes the spending and at the same time are criticized for not "helping." We need health care reform, but that monstrous piece of crap currently running around isn't the answer. Thankfully it has no hope of passing. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #146 November 26, 2009 What I see here so far is: - Tim seems to be making what might be interpreted as thinly-veiled threats of physical harm against those who criticize him in his campaign for US Congress; - The usual gang of right-wing sycophants is using the tried-and-true method of personally attacking Tim's critics to distract people off the message. The infantile attempts to put TK on trial in a thread about Tim's candidacy are beneath contempt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #147 November 26, 2009 QuoteA polite person would know how to respond without vulgarity. But that's not you, is it Johnny? Or doesn't it count when you hide it away where no-one can see? Quote If you want people to think of you as a rude, vulgar person, then by all means continue as is. So is that why you only abuse people in PM's? You want to be able to be vulgar, but not have people think of you as vulgar? I had no idea you were so sensitive. Or such an outrageous hypocrite. No, I take it back, I knew that one already.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #148 November 26, 2009 Quote- The usual gang of right-wing sycophants is using the tried-and-true method of personally attacking Tim's critics to distract people off the message. The infantile attempts to put TK on trial in a thread about Tim's candidacy are beneath contempt. And here you come and try to act like God. Funny thing is you are doing the exact same thing you claim others of..... Hypocrisy at it's best."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #149 November 26, 2009 post 105, not only did you change the title of the thread (a personal attack) you also made DIRECT personal attacks in your post. therefor earning the F--- O-- outta here snce I am arguing with unarmed people..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #150 November 26, 2009 And your last warning. Cut it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
