mnealtx 0 #26 November 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhy give the Dems a chance to pull another 'Saturday Night Special' vote, instead of letting it die in committee? So, wait . . . you actually think it's more "honorable" for people to sit on their hands and stubbornly let a bill die than to talk about it and force a vote? Legislators use parliamentary and procedural devices to their advantage all the time to try to prevail in legislative battles. It simply is part of the process. One's approval of or outrage at this, on a case by case basis, usually depends on whose ox is getting gored. Agreed - sort of like the mortgage reform bill that died in committee in the last Congress, was resubmitted and is *still* languishing in committee.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DavidB 0 #27 November 22, 2009 Just what our health care system needs; another 2000 pages of bureaucracy & governmental red-tape. They should be required to participate in any legislation they create, but the truth is they don't, won't & only care about what they can get for themselves, their friends & family. ETA: Welcome to the United Socialist States of America When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #28 November 22, 2009 QuoteThis only allows the debate to begin, which I am in favor of. As much as I'm opposed to this whole thing, it needs to be debated. Of course, I won't cry if a filibuster is successful in blocking a vote on the measure. But you would cried if the Dems fillibustered Bush's shit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but cloture has been established, isn't that a moot point now? Can't they do a limited debate based upon the rules of cloture and then go to a vote and pass with 51 votes? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #29 November 22, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Sen. Lincoln's Support for Health Care Debate Gives Dems 60 Votes http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/21/senate-crucial-vote/ And the fun begins CHEER! This will be great. One small step closer to government run health care. Yeah, because they've done SUCH a great job with Medicaid/Medicare... *Edit to add sarc tag* I agreee, throw it all out and give tax cuts to the rich; they'll take care of the poor. That has worked flawlessly in the past . BTW, my new employer has just laid off 80% of its direct employees and hired them all back as contractors w/o any benefits. This is Mike's dream vision for America Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #30 November 22, 2009 QuoteBTW, my new employer has just laid off 80% of its direct employees and hired them all back as contractors w/o any benefits. Did that occur in the US? Due to tax and Social Security considerations, the IRS is getting very strict about employers who treat their workers as 1099 contractors (not subject to withholding) when they ought to be treated as W-2 wage-earners (subject to withholding). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #31 November 22, 2009 Quote Basic health care is a universal right, not a commodiity to be sold for profit. Says who? The US Constitution? Mother Nature? You're daft.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #32 November 22, 2009 QuoteSounds like you need to do some research and quit letting emotion make your decisions. I agree Mike, just to think people get emotioal about themselves and family members getting ill and sometimes dying due to no HC is just too much; suck it up cry babies. Fuck, grow a set and figure out your medical dillemas on your own. I wish you were king for a day, Mike, you have it all figured out. QuoteMedicaid/Medicare is that 'broken, bankrupted system' that you keep hearing Congress talk about. Hey, I have an idea, why not take the military budget that is 8 times that of the #2 spender and cut it in half, use the money to shore up Medicare/Medicaid? Or just throw it out and let seniors and other needy people suffer, as in your perfecct world, that is, until you get there. QuoteThe healthcare bill fiasco strips even MORE money out of Medicare. Where does it state that? And even if it did, would that mean limits to benefits? Probably not but you'll guarantee it does. QuoteY'know, when Pelosi was talking about 'taking care of senior citizens', I thought she meant HELPING them....so much for THAT idea! You're acting as tho whatever changes to Medicare funding, if any, would affect benefits. You still have yet to substantiate that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #33 November 22, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote I'm REALLY hoping that you're agreeing with the sarcasm behind the statement... Sorry to disappoint youSo many people would be far worse off if we didn't have Medicare and Medicaid now. Sure it can be made better. You should be helping YOUR government to improve it. Sounds like you need to do some research and quit letting emotion make your decisions. Medicaid/Medicare is that 'broken, bankrupted system' that you keep hearing Congress talk about. The healthcare bill fiasco strips even MORE money out of Medicare. Y'know, when Pelosi was talking about 'taking care of senior citizens', I thought she meant HELPING them....so much for THAT idea! Thank you for the advice. We do need to improve and fund Medicaid and Medicare and make them robust and open them up to ALL americans. Passing health care reform with some kind of public option is the first step. Basic health care SHOULD BE a universal right, not a commodiity to be sold for profit. Fixed it for ya. In the US it's a luxury. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #34 November 22, 2009 Quote Really? Where do you get it from when the doctor quits, then? Oh, like the doctors do in all or any of the Socialized countries? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #35 November 22, 2009 QuoteIs your church non-profit? Did the pastor quit? Republican Christianity is quite different than other forms of Christianity where compassion and forgiveness are paramount. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #36 November 22, 2009 QuoteQuote Basic health care is a universal right, not a commodiity to be sold for profit. Says who? The US Constitution? Mother Nature? You're daft. People have been debating over what are, and are not, basic universal human rights ever since the advent of rudimentary governments - which means hundreds of centuries. So the intellectual process is nothing new. For example, when the authors of the Declaration of Independence said "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness", that was simply part of the ongoing debate over the existence - and definition - of universal rights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #37 November 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteSen. Lincoln's Support for Health Care Debate Gives Dems 60 Votes http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/21/senate-crucial-vote/ And the fun begins What I can't figure out is why, if the "conservative" position is so strong, why 39 members wouldn't want to talk about that openly and on the record in the Senate? What does not talking about the subject accomplish? You'd think that if they really had a strong argument, they'd be begging to have it openly debated before being voted on. That's because their arguments don't make sense, as with RW corporate-loving Nazis. Unless they become in a position of need, then it's all about social care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #38 November 22, 2009 Sure, and you have the right to pursue it, but not at the cost of someone else's rights.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #39 November 22, 2009 QuoteHowever, since you mention the word 'honorable'...what was so honorable about a Saturday night vote on a HUGE bill that would impact every person in America? What's so honorable about breaking a promise to have the bill online for 72 hours before voting on it? HUH? So if some senators were at home mailing it in it would enable them to read it? See, you pick on the fringes instead of dealing with the meat of the issue. It is so irrelevant that this was voted on Sat night or that it wasn't posted online. I mean, unless a person is w/o a pulse, they know of the HC Bill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #40 November 22, 2009 Quote Quote Quote However, since you mention the word 'honorable'...what was so honorable about a Saturday night vote on a HUGE bill that would impact every person in America? It certainly wasn't any sort of "surprise" that caught the minority members out of town. They were all present to vote and had been in the building for the vast majority of the day. It wasn't a surprise, it was non-exempt overtime. I sort of expect people in management positions to have to do that every once in awhile. Quote What's so honorable about breaking a promise to have the bill online for 72 hours before voting on it? I'm sorry, who promised that? Pelosi, several times. Obama promised 5 days during the campaign, as I recall (those pesky stimulus bills exempted, of course). In fact, there's a cspan clip floating around from 2005 when Pelosi was screaming about the Republicans not giving people time to read the bills and what an outrage it was ... guess that's not quite as important now, though. I don't care if she did or not, WHO GIVES A FUCK, this is bigger than when Bush lied about intel to go into Iraq, if you're not reading up, then you just don't care. You would say Congress is worthless and lazy, then demean them for spending 2 saturdays voting on this bill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #41 November 22, 2009 Quote Just what our health care system needs; another 2000 pages of bureaucracy & governmental red-tape. They should be required to participate in any legislation they create, but the truth is they don't, won't & only care about what they can get for themselves, their friends & family. ETA: Welcome to the United Socialist States of America So on one hand you want there to be an advantage to having money and you like class disparity, then on the other you want there to be no division in class and that all people, regardless of wealth status, to live on the same scale? You're twisting back and forth to suit your argument of: FUCK POOR PROPLR. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #42 November 22, 2009 Quote Quote BTW, my new employer has just laid off 80% of its direct employees and hired them all back as contractors w/o any benefits. Did that occur in the US? Due to tax and Social Security considerations, the IRS is getting very strict about employers who treat their workers as 1099 contractors (not subject to withholding) when they ought to be treated as W-2 wage-earners (subject to withholding). Well, Nazimerica, if that counts . They aren't 1099ers, they are hired directly thru contract companies on loan to the same employer. Look, I know you're a lawyer and you use correct terms, as do I. I guess I've been around dumbshit blue-collar types and have morphed my languange to theirs! Contract employee = direct hire employee. Temporary employee = hired thru temp agency Contrator = typically licensed thru the ROC and does work on houses/construction (1099) But the dumbshits in my field, acft maint, work thru temp agencies and are loaned out, sometimes states away or overseas, are paid as contract (direct) employees thru temp agency with no benefits and loaned out to their former direct employer. So this company just laid off maost of them and brought them in teh back door as temp employees w/o any benefits for less money per hour. AKA: the American way And the kicker is these blue-collar dumbshits hate Obama and hate the HC bill even tho they are worried about the end of their COBRA. Just amazing from my view watching these litterally stupid pieces of shit pulling for their own demise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #43 November 22, 2009 QuoteQuote Basic health care is a universal right, not a commodiity to be sold for profit. Says who? The US Constitution? Mother Nature? You're daft. Privacy isn't a right in the rag you call the US Const, yet the living Const has it as a right as with Katz v Ohio and others, so I'll go with the living COnst, thank you. Find me the word, "privacy" in the US Const. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #44 November 22, 2009 QuoteSure, and you have the right to pursue it, but not at the cost of someone else's rights.' And they have the right to pursue the Iraq War, but not at my expense. They did and that's teh way it goes - don't like it; leave. Sound familiar? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #45 November 22, 2009 Try Amendment IV. And I've never been in favor of any of the Gulf Conflicts. I do support the troops doing the job the government had sent them to do, but not the job it's self.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #46 November 22, 2009 QuoteSure, and you have the right to pursue it, but not at the cost of someone else's rights. That, too, has been part of the debate on the human condition since Forever. The fact is, it is very common for certain rights, privileges and duties to operate to the detriment of other rights, privileges and duties. Each society strikes its own balance at any given point in time, by various means: consensus; compromise; competition; intimidation; repression; war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DavidB 0 #47 November 22, 2009 Quote Quote Just what our health care system needs; another 2000 pages of bureaucracy & governmental red-tape. They should be required to participate in any legislation they create, but the truth is they don't, won't & only care about what they can get for themselves, their friends & family. ETA: Welcome to the United Socialist States of America So on one hand you want there to be an advantage to having money and you like class disparity, then on the other you want there to be no division in class and that all people, regardless of wealth status, to live on the same scale? You're twisting back and forth to suit your argument of: FUCK POOR PROPLR. Oh, OK then. 2000 pages of red tape & bureaucracy is a GOOD thing for "we the people" that have to fund this? Everything the government gets it's hands into is better for it? Most disturbing to me, the authors of this legislation are EXEMPTED from mandatory participation, "we the people" are not. If you believe that these politicians have your best interests at heart, if you believe the fox can & will guard the hen house, I don't know what to say that won't come across as an insult. Sorry.When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #48 November 22, 2009 QuoteQuote Basic health care is a universal right, not a commodiity to be sold for profit. Says who? The US Constitution? Mother Nature? You're daft. It's a self-evident truth. It's covered in the ninth amendment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #49 November 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote Basic health care is a universal right, not a commodiity to be sold for profit. Says who? The US Constitution? Mother Nature? You're daft. It's a self-evident truth. It's covered in the ninth amendment. It's also covered in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which the US has agreed to.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #50 November 22, 2009 QuoteTry Amendment IV. And I've never been in favor of any of the Gulf Conflicts. I do support the troops doing the job the government had sent them to do, but not the job it's self. 4th Amendment for privacy. Come on, what's so hard about posting what you're replying to? Pure ambiguity. I guess you're saying that the word, "privacy" is found in the 4th Amendment. This is my point, the 4th should have the word privacy in it, but it does not. No where in the Const, preamble or articles is teh word, "privacy." But I do appreciate you making my point, the living Const has it all over the place, as the original rag wasn't correct/valid enough to state it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
