mnealtx 0 #76 December 7, 2009 QuoteQuoteWorth repeating Quote Taxpayers will pay dearly. It is clear that some just do not care about the cost. It is equally clear that a lot of us actually do realize that it costs money and we are willing to pay for it for everyone... Everyone pays, everyone gets. just like the military, roads, schools, medicare, whatever. here we go again..... Remind us again...what healthcare plan are you covering your employees under?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #77 December 7, 2009 QuoteQuotejust like the military You think the military runs well? Quote roads You think the roads are run well? http://www.startribune.com/local/65160682.html?elr=KArksi8D3PE7_8yc+D3aiUo8D3PE7_eyc+D3aiUeyc+D3aUU Quoteschools You think public schools are doing a better job than private Universities? ... Some of the world's best universities are in the public systems. Of course, Indymac, AIG, Lehman Bros, UAL, etc. all perform spectacularly well.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #78 December 7, 2009 QuoteYou think the military runs well? certainly not, but if we cut their budget by 15% we could afford alot of the things that we are talking about. And I doubt the military would make a good model for single payer health care anyway - don't you think? But I DO think that Medicare is run pretty well, certainly a model that we could use..... QuoteYou think the roads are run well? http://www.startribune.com/local/65160682.html?elr=KArksi8D3PE7_8yc+D3aiUo8D3PE7_eyc+D3aiUeyc+D3aUU Actually, overall they are not run badly - but my point was not how well they are run, but how we all PAY for it and we all BENEFIT from it. Again, cut the military budget by another 5% and we could afford city to city trains that run very efficiently, reduce cars on the road and the need for roads, provide hundreds of thousands of construction jobs and tens of thousands of operation jobs. Oh but wait - we would have to sub all that out to China since we have reduced our manufacturing base to pretty much nothing..... QuoteYou think public schools are doing a better job than private Universities? I was not addressing private universities. The public school system does a pretty good job overall. Yes they could do better. Oh wait, take another 5% out of the military budget and we could afford a complete upgrade of the public school system too! Wow, I'm starting to like this..... QuoteMedicare is not running well either. http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/upload/7891.pdf (page 10) regardless of what you say, very few people do not like Medicare or want it scrapped. It is VERY popular and the majority of Americans are favoring its EXPANSION, not its retraction.... Single payer health care. Everyone pays through income tax, corporations pay through income tax, taxes on unhealthy behaviors go up (cigarettes i.e.), Medicare gets expanded to include ALL Americans, everyone pays, everyone gets. Even the homeless buy things and therefore pay some taxes..... Maybe if we helped them 'get better', at least some of them might return to work and start paying their share even moreso. but of course they are homeless because they CHOOSE to be homeless - lazy good-for-nothings. How DARE they ask society for anything to help get back on their feet...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #79 December 7, 2009 QuoteRemind us again...what healthcare plan are you covering your employees under? remind me again why that matters? Besides I have stated it many times. The thread is about Government run healthcare - not private health insurance..... Nice try, you should be a politician, - duck and avoid, then change the subject. Oh yes, don't forget the 'personal attack' in their too But it's OK, if you do not have any REAL reasons not to have single payer health care, it is still your right to rant...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #80 December 7, 2009 QuoteThe thread is about Government run healthcare - not private health insurance..... Nice try, you should be a politician, - duck and avoid, then change the subject. Oh yes, don't forget the 'personal attack' in their too Nice dodge - you're that one that's such an advocate of EVERYONE having healthcare, but yet you don't provide it to your own employees. So...why don't you provide healthcare to your workers, if it's such a HUGE priority to you, tk?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #81 December 7, 2009 you already know the answer to that - I do nto advocate PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE. I advocate single payer health care. To provide health insurance (which we already provide as a subsidy) would put the dropzone out of business by driving the cost of our services through the roof. The same reason tens of thousands of companies across the USA would 'like' to provide health INSURANCE but cannot. So to 'not be the hypocrite' that you are trying to make me out to be, I would actually have to play by your rules and fully fund private health INSURANCE for my staff - which I fundamentally disagree with. So for now, I will offer a subsidy of health insurance to my staff - they will gracefully turn it down because they cannot afford it either. I will advocate for single payer health CARE (not INSURANCE) for everyone, including my staff AND even for you too my friend. But of course you already know all this. I thought a lot of you over the years in all the discussions that we have had. I never ONCE thought you were that stupid. Are you trying to change my mind on that? Oh yes, still waiting on your arguments against Single Payer instead of personal attacks towards me...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #82 December 7, 2009 >So...why don't you provide healthcare to your workers, if it's such a >HUGE priority to you, tk? At Otay, it's because everyone is treated as an independent contractor rather than an employee; they are not paid by the DZ. (And having tandem students provide healthcare for tandems would be a little odd.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #83 December 7, 2009 So, YOU can't afford it, and THEY can't afford it, but somehow it's going to miraculously be affordable once fed.gov gets into it? You *DO* know that the actual cost is looking to be somewhere between 2.5 and 6 TRILLION for the first 10 years for this steaming pile of dreck, right? And, it's still not the 'single payor' system you want.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #84 December 8, 2009 QuoteQuoteWorth repeating Quote Taxpayers will pay dearly. It is clear that some just do not care about the cost. It is equally clear that a lot of us actually do realize that it costs money and we are willing to pay for it for everyone... Everyone pays, everyone gets. just like the military, roads, schools, medicare, whatever. here we go again..... Yep, here we go again with that same crap about everyone paying.... EVERYONE DOESN'T PAY Why is that so hard to understand? Not everyone pays for military. Not everyone pays for roads, or schools, or medicare. Not everyone (not even close to everyone) will pay for healthcare reform. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #85 December 8, 2009 Quote >So...why don't you provide healthcare to your workers, if it's such a >HUGE priority to you, tk? At Otay, it's because everyone is treated as an independent contractor rather than an employee; they are not paid by the DZ. (And having tandem students provide healthcare for tandems would be a little odd.) Sounds like a shady way for a greedy business to deny it's employees coverage. The business should be fined for each person who works there that isn't receiving healthcare. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #86 December 8, 2009 Quote certainly not, but if we cut their budget by 15% we could afford alot of the things that we are talking about. And I doubt the military would make a good model for single payer health care anyway - don't you think? 15% of the military budget pays for the recently lowered estimated cost for TARP. Eliminate the entire military budget and we still run a very large deficit. That's the crux of the problem with an extra trillion right now. Not only don't we have it, we're already spending that much in excess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #87 December 8, 2009 2 trillion 8 trillion, whatever. we spent a trillion already on wars, we'll spend a trillion more. I value health care over the need for a military the size of ours.... Health care is 16-25% of GDP regardless of who is paying for it. At least I acknowledge that its costs money and we should all pay for it. and yes, I actually do realize that the plan in front of us in NOT single payer. That does not actually change the fact that i am for single payer, an advocate of single payer, write letters weekly to those I need to to advocate single payer..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #88 December 8, 2009 Well, at least you're honest about it - as long as you get what you want, you don't care about the consequences. Fair enough.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #89 December 8, 2009 Quote2 trillion 8 trillion, whatever. Obama's 2012 campaign slogan. Quote we spent a trillion already on wars, That money is gone. It has no bearing on how to pay for HC reform. Quotewe'll spend a trillion more. I value health care over the need for a military the size of ours.... That's fine. Go back in time and take all the money spent. Then we can pay for HC reform. Irrational isn't it? QuoteHealth care is 16-25% of GDP regardless of who is paying for it. At least I acknowledge that its costs money and we should all pay for it. So are you advocating that everyone who uses the system must pay into it? Are you saying that a fair tax is the right way to go or that those who don't pay any federal taxes shouldn't get HC? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #90 December 8, 2009 QuoteYou think the military runs well? We should always wait to do things until we can do them well. In other words, we should never do anything. Ever. Because there's always someone with higher standards. Even if you don't think the military runs well, it is still the strongest military on the planet. In any event, it's not about how well it's run, by your definition, it's about doing better than what we have now. That means an end to economic discrimination of healthcare, for starters. It also means removing the corrupt insurance companies from the equation.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #91 December 8, 2009 Quote That means an end to economic discrimination YGBFSM. Economic discrimination? You mean things should be given away for free. of healthcare, for starters. Why don't the people who are economically discriminated against get an economically un-discriminating occupation. QuoteIt also means removing the corrupt insurance companies from the equation. The corrupt ones, yes. You do realize that even the non-corrupt companies aren't free, right? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #92 December 8, 2009 Quoteand we should all pay for it. Hmmm....what % of the population will be paying for it?Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #93 December 8, 2009 QuoteAccording to Morningstar, the profit margin for insurance companies over the past year was 3.4%. That's so high that they ranked 87th out of 215 industries. I found similar data. QuoteOf course salaries are part of the subtraction when calculating profit margin so companies can still pay execs a shit load (read; free country). It also includes paychecks to all employees, taxes, expenses, etc. Free country; free to be ill as your countrymen watch. See, you flag wavers tend to forget the "By the people, of the people, for the people" catchy little phrase. You think freedom means to allocate massive sums of money to private corporations from teh government, in whatever industry, and then allow that corp to operate how they want, exclude who they want and pay how many ever 100's of millions in salary to the waste at the top - then call that freedom. QuoteAll I'm saying is that listing a number (from a web adress that contains the phrase making-too-much-money) out of context isn't a valid comparison to the rest of the corporate world. And that's because you picture a nation's medical health as a business decision, a corporate model, etc. The rest of the world, the civilized part, refers to HC as a necessity, not a business; that's where conservatives really are a mess. I get it, 2% of the world - US connies are right, the rest of the world is wrong. Of course its those connies who stuck us most of 12T in debt while the rest of the world has killed our currency, so we've almost ousted those genius American conservatives - more to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #94 December 8, 2009 Quote So it is better we follow down the path that has failed before... Just so we "fit in"? So Cimmunist China is the US' biggest creditor, Luxemborg has the highest GDP per capita last I checked and most socialist nations fill the top 10 of that category. The US is the biggest debtor of all time and your argument is that American Capitalism is on the right track, the rest are failures. No wonder you guys embrace Reagan, he tripled the debt and that to you was a failure, yet Obama is spending too much. Seriously, run your rhetoric past the BS-ometer. I'll get the rest tonight, I have to go to work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #95 December 8, 2009 QuoteSo Cimmunist [SIC] China is the US' biggest creditor And has the worst civil rights record anywhere. One of the reasons China is doing so well is that they have artificially locked in the value of the Yen. You just seem to hate Capitalism so much that you don't care what it takes to take it down. Your only goal is to turn the US into a Socialist or Communist state."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #96 December 8, 2009 QuoteWe should always wait to do things until we can do them well. In other words, we should never do anything. Ever. Your words, not mine. I just think following a path you know will fail is a stupid move. QuoteEven if you don't think the military runs well, it is still the strongest military on the planet. At a cost that is more than the other leading 10 Country's combined. There is no doubt that just throwing money at a problem CAN fix some things... But at what cost? The US is running a deficit and your solution is to just ignore it and spend MORE on another project that will most likely fail? QuoteIn any event, it's not about how well it's run, by your definition, it's about doing better than what we have now. That means an end to economic discrimination of healthcare, for starters. It also means removing the corrupt insurance companies from the equation. And your solution is to just ignore the balance sheets and pay no attention to the actual plan."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #97 December 8, 2009 Quotecertainly not, but if we cut their budget by 15% we could afford alot of the things that we are talking about. But you know that's not how the Govt works. They will just ADD to the deficit, and not cut anything. They will try to raise taxes to cover the deficit, but politics will prevent them from balancing the budget since everyone wants free stuff. QuoteAnd I doubt the military would make a good model for single payer health care anyway - don't you think? The point is that even you agree that the Govt runs the military poorly... And at a cost that is MUCH higher than any other Country. QuoteBut I DO think that Medicare is run pretty well, certainly a model that we could use..... Really? http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-03-08-our-view_x.htm QuoteBut by far the biggest culprit is the exploding cost of health care, particularly Medicare, the government's insurance program for seniors. Medicare has grown 23-fold in the past three decades, from $13 billion in 1975 to $295 billion this year. It is on a trajectory that will soon rocket it past Social Security to the upper stratosphere of unaffordability. In 25 years, it will rise from 13% of federal spending to almost 40%. Medicare's "Part A" trust fund, which pays for hospital costs, is projected to run a deficit in 2010 and be depleted in 2019. But because Medicare costs are rising by more than 10% annually, they will surpass Social Security in less than two decades. Without changes, by 2052 Medicare will account for nearly 10 cents of every dollar spent in the USA and about 50 cents of every dollar spent by government, the program's trustees estimate. That's your idea of running well? QuoteAgain, cut the military budget by another 5% And again, you know that is not how things work. They will just add to the deficit again. QuoteOh but wait - we would have to sub all that out to China since we have reduced our manufacturing base to pretty much nothing..... Blame the Unions. They tried to artificially increase wages to a point that it became less expensive to ship those items than have them built here. QuoteI was not addressing private universities But you do want to compare private to public, so the analogy is valid. QuoteOh wait, take another 5% out of the military budget and we could afford a complete upgrade of the public school system too! Wow, I'm starting to like this..... You may like it.... But you know it will also never happen. Any politician that makes the suggestions you are will be crucified.... And you know it. Quoteregardless of what you say, very few people do not like Medicare or want it scrapped. It is VERY popular and the majority of Americans are favoring its EXPANSION, not its retraction.... And I am sure most people would like jump tickets to be free as well... The problem is that your business would soon fold if that happened. People may LIKE things... But that does not change the FACTS. Like how these programs are not sustainable. QuoteSingle payer health care. Everyone pays through income tax, corporations pay through income tax, taxes on unhealthy behaviors go up (cigarettes i.e.), Medicare gets expanded to include ALL Americans, everyone pays, everyone gets. Tax and spend.... Throwing money does not solve the problems. QuoteEven the homeless buy things and therefore pay some taxes So your solution is to attack the homeless and eat away at what little money they have? Quote Maybe if we helped them 'get better', at least some of them might return to work and start paying their share even moreso. YES..... But the answer is not to tax them to be even more broke. Quotebut of course they are homeless because they CHOOSE to be homeless - lazy good-for-nothings. How DARE they ask society for anything to help get back on their feet...... Your words, not mine. Must be your opinion, not mine. Quote"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #98 December 8, 2009 here is your "hope and change" health plan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #99 December 9, 2009 Quote According to Morningstar, the profit margin for insurance companies over the past year was 3.4%. It would be nice to know what number this 3.4% corresponds to.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #100 December 9, 2009 Quote Yep, here we go again with that same crap about everyone paying.... EVERYONE DOESN'T PAY Why is that so hard to understand? Not everyone pays for military. Not everyone pays for roads, or schools, or medicare. Not everyone (not even close to everyone) will pay for healthcare reform. But you will also pay if there is no healthcare reform, because those who cannot pay will still get services for free, and you ARE paying for them, right now. No matter what you WILL pay for it anyway. Why don't you try to calculate which way you'd pay LESS?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
