Possibly a argument for religion you may not have heard before...

[downwardspiral 0]

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From http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3754539#3754539

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The physical manifestation of God is not necessary and would actually be a detriment.

Discuss.

A detriment to who or what? Human kind or those that say they God speaks to them?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[billvon 2,990]

>I'll admit that some of the more extremists groups might take the news
> badly if they were "wrong" and there may be mass suicides/homicides for
> a bit . . .

One of the reasons there isn't more religious violence right now is that most people don't really care that much. If you gave them a real, concrete reason to care, things would get uglier IMO.

I mean, imagine God coming to earth and saying "Every single major religion has got it wrong. You - Catholics - that Pope is ridiculous. I never meant anything like that to happen. And you really think 'don't eat pork' is important? And don't even get me started on minarets." You really think the Catholic Church would just give up all its power without a fight? That Muslims would stop praying five times a day? That Jews would start eating bacon? That the Palestinians would stop being so pissed off at the Jews? I could see a Pope conferring with a head of state somewhere, asking if the False God might be vulnerable to a nuclear strike before it's too late.

Believing in a religion can make people very fervent, sometimes violent. Having that belief destroyed can make them a lot more violent.

[Bolas 5]

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>I'll admit that some of the more extremists groups might take the news
> badly if they were "wrong" and there may be mass suicides/homicides for
> a bit . . .

One of the reasons there isn't more religious violence right now is that most people don't really care that much. If you gave them a real, concrete reason to care, things would get uglier IMO.

I mean, imagine God coming to earth and saying "Every single major religion has got it wrong. You - Catholics - that Pope is ridiculous. I never meant anything like that to happen. And you really think 'don't eat pork' is important? And don't even get me started on minarets." You really think the Catholic Church would just give up all its power without a fight? That Muslims would stop praying five times a day? That Jews would start eating bacon? That the Palestinians would stop being so pissed off at the Jews? I could see a Pope conferring with a head of state somewhere, asking if the False God might be vulnerable to a nuclear strike before it's too late.

Believing in a religion can make people very fervent, sometimes violent. Having that belief destroyed can make them a lot more violent.

So you think that a major religion if indisputedly confronted by God themselves and told they were wrong would retaliate and try to kill God to hang onto their power in this mortal plane knowing that they'd be damned to hell for eternity after death?

One of the biggest selling points for religion is "heaven." All of the religions that were "wrong" might try and convince people of such and may try and get people to still kill others, but with the indisputable proof, the number of takers would be way less.

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Believing in a religion can make people very fervent, sometimes violent. Having that belief destroyed can make them a lot more violent.

For some, some would just be confused or scared for a bit, others might feel a huge burden lifted.

I'll agree if it happened, it would probably be violent for quite a while, but after that the only thing people would fight over would be money and power. Religion or religious freedom could no longer be an excuse.

I think in the end, despite the death and destruction it would cause, it would be worth it as we'd be a society with two sides: God and Satan. Good and Evil.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,990]

>So you think that a major religion if indisputedly confronted by God themselves
>and told they were wrong would retaliate and try to kill God . . .

Well, "indisputably" is the key word there. No matter how objectively convincing the evidence, people will often refuse to understand that which will destroy their livelihood, worldview or source of power. (Happens in a lot of places other than religion.)

>to hang onto their power in this mortal plane knowing that they'd be damned to
>hell for eternity after death?

They will tell themselves that it's a holy war and that they will be rewarded by the One True God (tm) after their death.

>I'll agree if it happened, it would probably be violent for quite a while, but after
>that the only thing people would fight over would be money and power. Religion
>or religious freedom could no longer be an excuse.

Do you really think that once there was objective evidence of God, there would be _more_ religious freedom? (The freedom to only make one choice really isn't freedom.)

>I think in the end, despite the death and destruction it would cause, it would
>be worth it as we'd be a society with two sides: God and Satan. Good and Evil.

So you're going with a Christian-like scenario but with a powerful second side? That sounds like an instant two religions right there, with far more to fight over. After all, the whole Heaven and Hell thing was only theoretical to most people before. Now they really _are_ fighting for their afterlife.

[Bolas 5]

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>So you think that a major religion if indisputedly confronted by God themselves
>and told they were wrong would retaliate and try to kill God . . .

Well, "indisputably" is the key word there. No matter how objectively convincing the evidence, people will often refuse to understand that which will destroy their livelihood, worldview or source of power. (Happens in a lot of places other than religion.)

I'd like to think that face to face with their creator (even if it was not whom they thought it was) money and power would not still be the motivators. Prolly naive.

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Do you really think that once there was objective evidence of God, there would be _more_ religious freedom? (The freedom to only make one choice really isn't freedom.)

They'd still be options, but what would be the point of taking them?

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>I think in the end, despite the death and destruction it would cause, it would
>be worth it as we'd be a society with two sides: God and Satan. Good and Evil.

So you're going with a Christian-like scenario but with a powerful second side? That sounds like an instant two religions right there, with far more to fight over. After all, the whole Heaven and Hell thing was only theoretical to most people before. Now they really _are_ fighting for their afterlife.

I know I chose a Christian based theism, but in all you can't have one without the other or some sort of "punishment."

With known rules and known consequences there will be people that try to save others (possibly to help themselves), but the majority will be focused on keeping themselves on "the good list."

Known and enforced rules, known consequences. It's the ultimate in personal accountability.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,990]

>I'd like to think that face to face with their creator (even if it was not
>whom they thought it was) money and power would not still be the
>motivators.

Well:

a) never underestimate money and power

b) familiarity breeds contempt. If there really was a God here, constantly performing tricks ("miracles") to prove his divinity, and punishing evildoers, how many people would see him as someone like Q from Star Trek, instead of the Real God? (Remember, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a miracle.)

Indeed, the more power he displayed, the more people would think something like this. As a race we're not prone to obedience even in the face of clear superiority.

>I know I chose a Christian based theism, but in all you can't have
>one without the other or some sort of "punishment."

Hmm. So you can't have reward without punishment? Sounds like a system of control tailored to humans, which would make me suspect its divine nature.

>Known and enforced rules, known consequences. It's the ultimate in
>personal accountability.

Perhaps, and indeed we come close to this in some places. Prisons and parochial schools come to mind. Not great places to live tho.

[Bolas 5]

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Perhaps, and indeed we come close to this in some places. Prisons and parochial schools come to mind. Not great places to live tho.

Not in the prison I worked in or any I've heard of. Sex, drugs, and alcohol all were forbidden, but all were prevalent. Most outside contraband was provided by the guards.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[jcd11235 0]

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I believe, therefore I am.

or

I believe, therefore it is.

Both views are crap.

I can see, hear, smell, taste, and touch, therefore I am part of a self aware universe.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 2,990]

>Not in the prison I worked in or any I've heard of. Sex, drugs, and
>alcohol all were forbidden, but all were prevalent.

Well, that's sorta the point. You have known and enforced rules, and known (and often experienced) consequences. Yet all those things were prevalent. I think there's something in human nature that just wants to buck the system no matter what the later cost.

[jumpoutnow 0]

I just want to know who was the shit shoveler in the big ass beasty boat.

People are crazy. Cuz there's more of 'em.

[jakee 1,489]

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As I have come to see it, we are here with certain undeniable needs. I think these are genetic calling cards God has implanted within our genome. They continually remind us that He is there and waiting for our freewill choice to let Him into our minds.

What are they, then?

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External phenomena would handicap the faith process necessary to allow God use of His power and presence to fulfill those needs.

Bam, the all too predictable get out of jail free card! "God can't do anything you won't let him do..." Well, since he's apparently the master of the bloody universe I'm not quite sure how I'm supposed to be stopping him from doing any damn thing he wanted with me. So why is nothing happening? Is it that I'm more powerful than the galactic overlord, or is there just nothing there?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Bolas 5]

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>Not in the prison I worked in or any I've heard of. Sex, drugs, and
>alcohol all were forbidden, but all were prevalent.

Well, that's sorta the point. You have known and enforced rules, and known (and often experienced) consequences. Yet all those things were prevalent. I think there's something in human nature that just wants to buck the system no matter what the later cost.

I think it's more working the system than anything. "Will I get caught?" is usually the main factor followed by "If caught, what's the consequence?"

With an all seeing all knowing entity, one would always be caught breaking a "rule" so the consequence of the violation would be the only factor.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,990]

>With an all seeing all knowing entity, one would always be caught
>breaking a "rule" so the consequence of the violation would be the only
>factor.

To some people, I don't think it matters. They simply do not place any value on later reward or later punishment, as long as they can have fun _now._ Look at smoking. Pretty much a guarantee of health problems later; it may not kill you but it will certainly make the end of your life pretty miserable. Yet people still spend lots of money on cigarettes.

[jcd11235 0]

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I just want to know who was the shit shoveler in the big ass beasty boat.

Well, I'll tell you. No, uh, really I haven't a clue who did that job.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[maadmax 0]

--What are they, then?

[maadmax 0]

Not in the prison I worked in or any I've heard of. Sex, drugs, and
>alcohol all were forbidden, but all were prevalent.

Well, that's sorta the point. You have known and enforced rules, and known (and often experienced) consequences. Yet all those things were prevalent. I think there's something in human nature that just wants to buck the system no matter what the later cost.

[Bolas 5]

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>With an all seeing all knowing entity, one would always be caught
>breaking a "rule" so the consequence of the violation would be the only
>factor.

To some people, I don't think it matters. They simply do not place any value on later reward or later punishment, as long as they can have fun _now._ Look at smoking. Pretty much a guarantee of health problems later; it may not kill you but it will certainly make the end of your life pretty miserable. Yet people still spend lots of money on cigarettes.

They generally reason it out. "I'll prolly be dead long before then." or "Not everyone gets sick, I knew this dude that was 90, smoked since he was 12 and..." etc. They can do that because there is a degree of uncertainty. Granted, you do have purely self destructive types, but even alot of those base their behaviors on most likely being dead before the major consequences.

Death is still a certainty for all at this point and the forseeable future. If there was a verified heaven and hell with a set of rules monitored by an all knowing all seeing extremely strict entity I think those rules with known serious consequences would have much less violators.

If one knew they'd always get caught, would they be so apt to "disobey."

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[grimmie 186]

If God showed up I think the #1 question would be "What happens when we die?"

What other reason is there to believe except for an afterlife in Heaven?

Once that got answered there may be a bit of mayhem from the usual suspects, but it would be short lived. If there is a really cool heaven then what pleasure would the nutters have in killing anyone?

I would just hope that when God appears, he sorts out all of the crooked televangelists, preachers and priests...

[billvon 2,990]

>They generally reason it out. "I'll prolly be dead long before then." or
>"Not everyone gets sick, I knew this dude that was 90, smoked since he
>was 12 and..." etc.

Or they figure "that's 60 years away, and I want to enjoy life NOW." Teenagers are exceptional examples of this.

Or they just plain don't think. There is really no limit to how stupid people can be.

> If there was a verified heaven and hell with a set of rules monitored by
> an all knowing all seeing extremely strict entity I think those rules with
> known serious consequences would have much less violators.

If people _perceived_ that to be the case, there would be fewer violators. But you think some canny businessman will start selling indulgences? I wouldn't rule it out. And based on how many people fall for the "Nigerian finance minister" scams, there would be no shortage of people who decide they can cheat on the wife and then get a "get out of hell" card for the low low price of $19,999.

One of the reasons I have doubts that this will change anyone's behavior is that today there are people who fervently, without a doubt believe that there is a God, and follow books like the Bible and the Koran that say pretty emphatically that you shouldn't go around killing people - and they go around killing people. If they have additional proof of what they already believe, what will change?

[Bolas 5]

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One of the reasons I have doubts that this will change anyone's behavior is that today there are people who fervently, without a doubt believe that there is a God, and follow books like the Bible and the Koran that say pretty emphatically that you shouldn't go around killing people - and they go around killing people. If they have additional proof of what they already believe, what will change?

They justify they are the chosen ones and are only killing nonbelievers who don't matter. In these sorts of debates, the supreme being could be like the Supreme Court.

I still think it would be an amazing thing. The answers to all the ultimate questions. Converting faith and belief into knowledge and fact.

Granted it could be like an extremely hyped movie that you're dying to see but when you finally see it your'e either dissappointed or even if you like it you're like, "OK. Now what?"

The most religious would probably have the hardest time accepting this even if they were "right."

Maybe that's another reason they'd prefer for there never to be scientific proof. As they themselves don't need it, they feel noone else should either.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[yourmomma 0]

"and follow books like the Bible and the Koran that say pretty emphatically that you shouldn't go around killing people - and they go around killing people"

Thats why the bible is so kick ass. The very first thing your not suppose to do is justified, condoned even glorified later on. I've always read "thou shalt not kill" as a pretty emphatic condemnation on killing any of god's creatures. I'm sure someone here will be able to quote the bits which make taking gods word at face value seem ridiculous. But if your gonna throw all your eggs in a basket what's the point of leaving one out because its inconvenient to get in.

[RonD1120 62]

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So you think that a major religion if indisputedly confronted by God themselves and told they were wrong would retaliate and try to kill God to hang onto their power in this mortal plane knowing that they'd be damned to hell for eternity after death?

It seems to me that was the worldly condition when Jesus Christ of Nazareth appeared on the scene. The world was pretty much the Israelites, the Jews, and others, the pagan or heathen.

The Jews had the Mosaic Law and Jesus taught that relationship with the Father was not just a matter of the Law. So, the Jewish leaders had Him crucified by the pagans.

Satan believes he can become more powerful than God. He thought he won the battle when Christ died on the cross. When Jesus arose in victory over death a new paradigm of warfare was established. Satan did not know that the Father could and would create an eternal sacrifice for sin that would forever satisfy the law.

Satan now creates confusion to obfuscate the truth. His influence is channeled through the five senses i.e., what the mortal sees, hears, feels, smells and tastes. That sensory information is analyzed and organized in the mind. The truth of relationship with the Creator is in the heart. The battle is in the mind. The soul of the mortal is at stake.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[tkhayes 348]

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I can see, hear, smell, taste, and touch, therefore I am part of a self aware universe.

What??? Not sure what that means in the context of this thread.....

see hear smell and taste are all driven by organs of the body. generally speaking, what I hear, you hear, what I see, you see, what I smell you smell, what I touch, you can touch and feel that same thing, assuming our organs are working and the environment in which we do these things is the same.

REGARDLESS of the environment that we are in, what I 'believe' has little to do with what you 'believe' and is not likely to be the same.

The five senses are not 'learned skills' as such, we are born with them. What we 'believe' is 100% learned over our lifetime.

[frequentfaller 0]

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One of the reasons I have doubts that this will change anyone's behavior is that today there are people who fervently, without a doubt believe that there is a God, and follow books like the Bible and the Koran that say pretty emphatically that you shouldn't go around killing people - and they go around killing people. If they have additional proof of what they already believe, what will change?

additional proof, wouldn't change a thing. undeniable proof, with immediate consequences total change.

the christians, jews and muslims believe in the same god just different rule books. they all believe in jesus, just different views of his importance.

when is everyone gonna realize that l.ron hubbard is the only one who got it right

Born ok 1st time.

[billvon 2,990]

>undeniable proof, with immediate consequences total change.

Yes, I agree there. If God struck you dead as soon as you picked up a gun to go after someone, then things would change fast. But that's prevention, not deterrence.