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BaronVonBoll

Pot smokers

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wow,

A lot of misinformation in this thread. Some of you shouldn't believe everything you hear. there is a lot of 'propaganda' out there.

http://legalizepot.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/why-is-marijuana-illegal/

i highly suggest watching this if you have not seen it, its a good watch. very interesting documentary that everyone should see.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9077214414651731007#

Isn't it interesting how many of the people who generally want cannabis prohibition are the people profiting from it. When drug dealers want the same thing as the DEA, alcohol and tobacco companies and pharmaceutical companies, maybe you should start wondering. Politicians? The war on drugs(cannabis) is fucking ridiculous. Its big business. Look at arrest numbers for non-violent crimes, namely marijuana. sad. forgot the private prison world is a big industry too? prohibition does not work, and we know it.


medicinal marijuana? that's because it is medicine. A lot of scientific evidence is simply ignored by a lot of people. cannabis is classified as a schedule I drug, meaning it has absolutely no medical value. hmmm why is that?

try this out. I highly suggest looking into some of this information. really informative, and has a lot of sources.


http://www.legalizethecure.com/Reference-Library.html

http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=5441

http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3475

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First, I'll speak from personal experience as to the medical value of mj.



I agree with the medical value of MJ. That was not what this is about.

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Read the report. It was headed by Milton Friedman.



The economic debate was not about the economics of pot legalization. Someone here was erronously calling this simple economics when there's a lot more involved. There's no magical fix. Plus Milton Friedman may be a genius, but he was more Lazai-faire with anything goverment regulation. Besides this paper was about the economics of legalization(i.e it doesn't matter what the product), not effects this will have on the people.

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There are many myths concerning marijuana.



Yes, and again, it was government organizations that debunked them.

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There has also been a growing movement within law enforcement



The BOD hey are all are retired, or from Canada or from Brazil! Not really credible.

Overall, what's happening here is that most pro-legalizion arguments are cherry-picking reports but ignoring other parts. Most of the "govt lies" are regurgitated reports from same govt sponsored reports that show debunked myths and circled back against the same organization. It's chocked full of red herrings:S
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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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Tell you what. . . in ten years, take a look back and see how much simplistic views of things advanced the legalization of MJ.
_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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The BOD hey are all are retired, or from Canada or from Brazil! Not really credible.



They were all life long, front line people in the drug war. Why would you consider these people to not be credible? I tend to believe that they know more than the average person on the subject.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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They want to legalize all drugs. Are you kidding me? :S:S

For one thing, the internet and a few local interviews on tv news stations can make what really is about eight active people and a small 700 sq ft. store front in a run down neighborhood seem like a "movement". As far as National news, any ex-cop that is for legalization of drugs is going to get some air-time. Believe it or not, it's because of the shock value, not the strengh of a movement.

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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They want to legalize all drugs. Are you kidding me? :S:S

For one thing, the internet and a few local interviews on tv news stations can make what really is about eight active people and a small 700 sq ft. store front in a run down neighborhood seem like a "movement". As far as National news, any ex-cop that is for legalization of drugs is going to get some air-time. Believe it or not, it's because of the shock value, not the strengh of a movement.



You seem to equate "legalization" with "free for all, do as you please." With legalization come rules, laws, and regulation along with fines and/or prison time for those who do not abide by the rules.

Legalize all drugs? Personally, I think the people who use drugs such as heroin, cocaine, and meth, as well as ectasey and any of the other chemicals that are being use have a serious problem. Locking up addicts have proven to have no affect. While the small-time offender sits in a jail cell the control of the drug trade remains in the hands of the cartels. Legalization would shift the control.

As it is right now, two of the most widely used hard drugs are schedule II. Cocaine and methamphetamine are already manufactured for medical use. The same should be for heroin as well as marijuana. A shift in control should be treatment oriented and not all out law enforcement. Legalizing would not mean that a person could walk to a near by store and buy heroin, but a person (addict) would be required to go to a clinic for the drug. Monitoring and weening would be the goal.

There will still be the black market, but I believe it would be extremely small scale much like the illegal alcohol and tobacco markets. Hence, the reason for laws to govern distribution and use. Down sizing the black market would greatly reduce the number of smaller players. Reducing the profit margin would attract less willing to get involved. If an addict could get his/her "fix" of medical grade heroin at a state ran clinic for very little cost while being treated for addiction, why would he/she go to a dealer?

The only alternative to trying a new route is to do the same thing and we all know what a failure it has been. Organizations such as NORML, LEAP, and ASA serve to provide information on the alternative routes and do give credibility to the argument.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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Monitoring and weening would be the goal.



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If an addict could get his/her "fix" of medical grade heroin at a state ran clinic for very little cost while being treated for addiction, why would he/she go to a dealer?



While offering treatment for those that want to quit is great, trying to force people to will just drive them back to the illegal markets.

Legalize all and treat them all like alcohol. Tax it and set aside a percentage of that tax revenue for rehab and education programs.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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Okay, a big portion of what you are saying is the common blurb that is being said by many previously on the same subject on different forums. It is all a huge red herring.

The biggest problem with your post, famous economists, libertarians, drug users, and people who want to smoke pot is you all are concentrating on the suppliers of drugs and the crimminal ramifications of supplying drugs. It's noise that takes away from the whole intent of illegalization of Drugs in the first place. This is a war on the drugs themselves and their dangers, not a war on those who choose to go the crimminal route. We go after the suppliers the same way belligerent countries go after the supply chain of another belligerent country to prevent said country from fueling their war. Here, legalizing the supply will allow drugs to stay and further destroy lives. And worse, it will allow more drugs to be available (dont believe for a second that laws are going to curb addiction).

You propose legalizing to save money, stop overfilling prisons and the like, but many fail to realize that you are moving the problem, not stopping it. The societal impact will swallow up the money legalization will save. Prisons will be filled with different types of crimminals.

All in all, this would just shuffle the problem and not fix anything at all. And worse! These drugs were illegalized duing different periods of time. Times have changed. Things happen faster. there's more hustle and bustle, people live closer together and in todays computer age, the effects of societal dependence will cause a larger hurt than the less complex periods of yesteryear. There's more sensitivity to change now.
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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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You propose legalizing to save money, stop overfilling prisons and the like, but many fail to realize that you are moving the problem, not stopping it. The societal impact will swallow up the money legalization will save. Prisons will be filled with different types of crimminals.



What types of criminals would fill the prisons? Or is this simply a statement of other laws/penalties would be changed to keep the prison system status quo?

Not one person thinks legalization of drugs is the fix all for everything. There is no one fix. There are only steps we can hopefully take towards it. Your attitude appears to be "if it won't 100% fix it, we should do nothing" AKA "it's broke but don't fix it." :S
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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What types of criminals would fill the prisons?



Those that break laws due to violence, driving under the influence, ect.

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Not one person thinks legalization of drugs is the fix all for everything. There is no one fix.



Which means it's not simple which I have said many times over.

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Your attitude appears to be "if it won't 100% fix it, we should do nothing" AKA "it's broke but don't fix it."



No. My attitude is don't shuffle as a mean to "fix" something. My attitude is don't get caught up with pro-legalizers filling the internet with red-herring arguments that unintentionally(intentionally?) lead the discussion points off the actual issue.

It's not broke. Illegalization and the arrests of suppliers isn't designed to completely irradicate the drug problem, it's supposed to slow it considerably. That's why it's not broke. It works. Can your immune system completely irradicate diseases, or does it work to keep foreign bodies at a safer level than what could happen without it?
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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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It's not broke. Illegalization and the arrests of suppliers isn't designed to completely irradicate the drug problem, it's supposed to slow it considerably. That's why it's not broke. It works.



So limiting the supply which only drives up demand and prices which leads to increased violence and theft to obtain is a good thing?

Why fight yet another war we can't win?

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Can your immune system completely irradicate diseases, or does it work to keep foreign bodies at a safer level than what could happen without it?



Bad anology as my body or parts of it don't crave disease. As long as people want drugs, other people will provide them, regardless of legality.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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So limiting the supply which only drives up demand and prices which leads to increased violence and theft to obtain is a good thing?



Better than say. . . allow for supply which will lower prices, make it more affordable and plentiful, and put it in a position to be able be obtained easier to cause larger problems and more increased violence and societal ill.

Like you said, "There's no easy fix. . ."

It all boils down to this: Who do you want in jail? Those who willingly break the law, or those who breaks law because they don't have the control to make said decisions?

My fix provides less of this scenario than your fix will.

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Bad anology as my body or parts of it don't crave disease



The analogy is about control vs. irradication. It has nothing to do about psychological effects.

Bacteria and viruses will always be able to invade. The body will not be able to destroy all. Maybe the body should legalize bacteria and viruses since it can't win another "unwinnable war". The heart and lungs will pass laws to make sure the cancer and viruses will be distributed only at a certain age of the cells. The cells will have the responsibility for themselves and if they go overboard, well it's their fault. We won't prosecute said cell for allowing it's cancer get out of whack and have it pass to neighboring cells. It will be better because the T-cells will not have to die needlessly and the body will not have to expend needless calories on a war it can't win.
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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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Like you said, "There's no easy fix. . ."

It all boils down to this: Who do you want in jail? Those who willingly break the law, or those who breaks law because they don't have the control to make said decisions?



I want laws that can be uniformly and consistently enforced. Those laws should be limited to acts that directly effect others, not acts done to or by consenting adults.

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Bad anology as my body or parts of it don't crave disease



The analogy is about control vs. irradication. It has nothing to do about psychological effects.


I wasn't talking pyschological, I was talking demand. Using the same example, if my heart actively wanted disease and went searching for it, no matter how good or multi layered the layers of protection were, it would find a way to get it.

Eventually all drugs will be legalized. Just as prohibition eventually ended so too will this. And I was raised right in the heart of the "Just Say No" generation. ;)
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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It's noise that takes away from the whole intent of illegalization of Drugs in the first place.



Why was pot made illegal? Let's put the other ones aside. The origins of this change in policy had more to do with economics and racism than health concerns.

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I want laws that can be uniformly and consistently enforced. Those laws should be limited to acts that directly effect others, not acts done to or by consenting adults.



No disagreement there. I just think that there are enough adults that will mess it up for other adults. There will always be bad apples and there is enough to do damage. There is just no way around controlling them without affecting everyone else. And there's no way of relaxing controls for responsible adults without others abusing the freedom. If the world is full of nothing but Bolas, JCD1123, Freetheflys and others here, it would be a comfy world. But how you deal with things and run your life isn't the same throughout the population.

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I wasn't talking pyschological, I was talking demand. Using the same example, if my heart actively wanted disease and went searching for it, no matter how good or multi layered the layers of protection were, it would find a way to get it



Which is why irradication is impossible and known therefore is looked at as a goal that though unattainable, its persuit will nonetheless achieve better controls.

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Eventually all drugs will be legalized. Just as prohibition eventually ended so too will this.



Well, Alcohol was very important, iconic and a symbol of the american pasttime then and now. There is a lot more emotion and dissolusion due to it's immediate and total ban. Drugs is not looked at as a loving and central aspect of daily life. In fact, it's looked down on by enough to keep it illegal and people are very standoffish about it being around. Also, look at the dynamics between the two. Alcohol was banned and immediately legalized again. Various drugs were banned over a period of many decades and has been kept illegal over nearly a century. There is strengh in time. Drugs does not have the "oh shit, we fucked up" factor that Alcohol did. I just don't see this happening.
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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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Why was pot made illegal? Let's put the other ones aside. The origins of this change in policy had more to do with economics and racism than health concerns



Racism maybe. Economic, I'm not sure. Around 1917, hemp was already at a severe decline due to the high cost of manufacturing in comarison to cotton. Hemp may have been stronger, but cotton and other raw materials were way cheaper and easier to manufacture. Now later during the wars, the need for raw materials far exceeded the need to be cheap and afterwards, the demand decreased again. Hemp's decline was a factor of advancement.

Definitely health concerns had nothing to do illegalization.

But it doesn't matter. The "why" of the past has no strengh as a bullet point for legalization. The past and how things came to be has no affect to the reasons why now it's still illegal. The reasons changed. Also, with Cigarettes and Alcohol everywhere, people are just not going to put another questional product into the mix. It's easier to say "forget it" than legalize it.
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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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I want laws that can be uniformly and consistently enforced. Those laws should be limited to acts that directly effect others, not acts done to or by consenting adults.



No disagreement there. I just think that there are enough adults that will mess it up for other adults. There will always be bad apples and there is enough to do damage. There is just no way around controlling them without affecting everyone else. And there's no way of relaxing controls for responsible adults without others abusing the freedom. If the world is full of nothing but Bolas, JCD1123, Freetheflys and others here, it would be a comfy world. But how you deal with things and run your life isn't the same throughout the population.



While I agree some will abuse the freedom, that doesn't mean people still shouldn't be allowed to have it. Anytime you give people choices, some will make the "wrong" one. Punish and restrict those, not everyone.

Ex:
Do drugs at home or a party? You're fine.

Injure or kill someone while under the influence of a drug? You still get punished for the crime.

It's not an issue of rights or freedoms, more of accountability for one's own actions.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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This is in response to the entire thread ... only picked Nanook's to hit "reply" to because of the quote further down.

So there is no question about my stance, I would favor legalization, and think the end result over time would be beneficial in terms of impact in both the financal and criminal arenas. Would there be an instantaneous "cure" ... heck no ... but I firmly believe it would be a big step in the right direction. The legalities would have to be battled out between state and fed, yes ... but that is the case with many issues, and is certainly no reason to NOT do it.

First off, to address the comparison to prohibition. I think there are certainly parallels that apply, but I have to agree with AggieDave that there isn't a totally direct comparison because of reasons I haven't seen actually verbalized here (tho some posts have touched on it less directly). The main difference is that the criminal activity related to prohibition was almost entirely about alcohol, so removing laws pertaining to it's illegality did effectively remove that element. The criminal activity related to importation/sale of drugs is just that ... drugs as a whole, not JUST weed. Legalizing, or decriminalizing pot will only remove one part of their business, so they will continue on with the coke, herion, 'script drugs, etc.

Now, because I am a beach lover, I have to comment about the Nanook post about the trashed beaches and his perceived negative effect on tourists. I (duh ... Beachbum!!) have spent a lot of time at beaches, and my observations over the years are that in areas with heavy tourism, the tourists are the major source of trash left on the beaches. When I lived in N.C., you could watch in late afternoon in front of the tourist hotels, and as those folks left the beach to return to their respective hotels, there was always a very distinct line of trash left behind to mark where they'd had their chairs set up. For the most part, the locals (including those dreaded dope smoking surfers) sure as heck didn't do that. And yes, I was often in a position to see vehicles they climbed into if not returning to a hotel, so could see who had local plates on their cars versus out of state or inland area plates (N.C. has city plates on the front end). Sad thing was, there were trash barrels nearby, but these people weren't willing to utilize them, I guess. Must have been that the weed they were smoking made them too lazy, eh?? ... ;) ... I've witnessed the same thing here in Texas, but a bit differently, since much of the beach area I utilize here is hotel free (thank goodness!). It seems to me that locals and regular beach users are much more apt to take care of the beach, and those who view it strictly as a "once in a while" visit display much less care. Perhaps things are different in Cali, but I think to blame all trashing of beaches on any one group of people is ludicrous.


*** There is just no way around controlling them without affecting everyone else.



Quoted this one because I am just curious ... why do you feel the need to control anyone with respect to this issue? Do you also spend time trying to devise ways to control those who drink alcohol?
As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

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Around 1917, hemp was already at a severe decline due to the high cost of manufacturing in comarison to cotton. Hemp may have been stronger, but cotton and other raw materials were way cheaper and easier to manufacture. Now later during the wars, the need for raw materials far exceeded the need to be cheap and afterwards, the demand decreased again. Hemp's decline was a factor of advancement.



At the time, advances in cotton industry related machinery did out pace that of machines in the hemp industry. Overtime, however cotton has proven to be far more costly. Cotton farming accounts for near 50% of the worlds crop chemical use. Hemp farming use nearly none if any at all. Cotton farming is extremely environmentally unsound.
Cotton badly leach the soil. Hemp is a self mulching crop and can be grown in the same soil over and over again without consequence to the soil. Furthermore, due to its ability to fend off weeds, disease and insect infestation it is the perfect rotation crop for traditional crops.
Hemp has a high hurdle to clear in order to be viable in today's market. First, it has to compete with a firmly established cotton industry as well as numerous others as the plant has a wide range of uses. Second, it needs to be accepted by the general consumer. As with any new product (actually, hemp is nothing new as it has enjoyed pretty much the entire span of human existence as a valuable commodity) introduced to the market, there is a transitional period from novelty to common. Third, the many uses need to be brought up to date. Research into its use was halted in 1937 due to the Marijuana Tax Stamp Act. The government did not distinguish between industrial hemp and the smoked strain of cannabis thereby placing hemp under the umbrella of law enforcement. Research across the spectrum of use came to an immediate halt. Had the two been kept separate or research allowed to continue on the two, marijuana and it's many uses would, probably, have greater acceptance.
Due to ignorance and intentional misinformation the market and the environment has lost. The market lost a product that gave the consumer another choice. Possibly, a wiser choice. The environment lost and is still losing. Runoff from chemical farming has done serious damage over the years. Hemp, as a rotational crop would had greatly reduced the damage as well as saved millions in operation cost for farmers.
It should not be a matter of law enforcement but solely under the Dept. of Agriculture. The argument 'drug cartels will grow illegal marijuana in hemp fields' doesn't hold water as pollination from the hemp would render the illegal plants useless. Being that hemp contains .03-1.0 (less than) it need not be classified as a schedule one narcotic (neither should smoked mj in the opinion of millions of people). Millions of dollars and manpower hours could be saved simply by ceasing operations to eradicate a plant that no one smokes.
If not for the high cost for hemp jeans and shirts, more people would more likely buy them. I would and had in the past. After a few washings the shirts I had were extremely comfortable just as cotton is. I think that hemp will eventually make a comeback. The cost of finished products will decrease as production cost stabilize alongside that of cotton and other products. Hemp just makes sense.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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Hemp just makes sense.



But then the song would have to go, "I wish I was in the land of hemp." Doesn't really roll off the tongue, does it? And what would come after it? "Larry, Curly, Moe and Shemp"? People would laugh at the South. Not that they don't already.

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Hemp just makes sense.



But then the song would have to go, "I wish I was in the land of hemp." Doesn't really roll off the tongue, does it? And what would come after it? "Larry, Curly, Moe and Shemp"? People would laugh at the South. Not that they don't already.


Hey Y'All...
Somebody hold mah beer!
>:(;)B|
But what do I know?

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I detest smoking dope. That said, people who smoke it in an atmospere that won't even affect other's lives, or lifestyles, get after it. The use of this illicit drug is against the law, if you want to take a chance on being a criminal, smoke away. The use of cannibus sativa also increases the onset of lung cancer and a host of other dieseases,

Obey by the laws of your state. Prohibit the use of this dangerours drug at all cost where prohibited.




Hahahaaa!!:D what a joke. . .
I detest jaywalking. That said, people who jaywalk in an atmospere that won't even affect other's lives, or lifestyles, get after it. The act of jaywalikingis against the law, if you want to take a chance on being a criminal, jaywalk away. The use of jaywalkingalso increases the onset of slower driving and a host of other issues,

Obey by the laws of your state. Prohibit the use of this dangerours jaywalkingat all cost where prohibited.

Sheesh:S Hard to get altitude in the shelter you've been living in. . .
If yer gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough!!
Cuz stupid hurts

A-54266 - BASE#1374

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as far as trusifarians ruining the beaches in cali come the F on. apparently you havent been to the beach after it rains. the runoff from soil pollution will cause sickness, infection, and all kinds of nastyness.

why do they call dreadheads tree huggers? cause they love and respect the earth.

how many surfers have you seen walking the beach picking up trash? i know i do every time im headed to the car after a session.

i live in florida where our main income is tourists, when do you think the beach is more trashed? in tourist season or when its locals only????

not much of an argument there. most of the pot smokers i know are very earth minded individuals and respect what mother earth has given them.

i really wish you pot haters would get your heads out of your asses and open your eyes.

my father is recovering from colon cancer, he smokes daily. holds down an telcom engineering job with no problems. he was over chemo'd and got chroins disease from it, the only way he could even smell food without getting sick was from pot.

if you have never dealt with this type of situation and have strong feelings against pot then you really need to grow up and expierence life outside of your comfly little bubble that you live in.

its a great big wide world out there, whats right for you might not be right for someone else, and whats right for someone else might not be right for u. but thats not your decision to make for someone else!
Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

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