mjosparky 4 #51 September 3, 2006 It was open field but something once under about 800 to 1000 feet no real outs. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DontPanic 0 #52 September 4, 2006 Man, what an eerie coincidence. This thread just showed up in the Incidents forum about a demo fatality in Worm, Germany that appears to have involved a swoop. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2404572;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #53 September 5, 2006 Quote(we need to do that again! ) Airtwardo and myself are already on the load for the 2103 celebration.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #54 September 5, 2006 Quote my opinion is that your S&TA needs his ass kicked if he is allowing this.... non jumpers will be plenty impressed by safe stand up landings, not some fool slamming or sliding in. What he said. Two guys can swoop a channel of water with beautiful toe-drags and stand up their landings on dry ground, and all the crowd will remember is the one guy who lands himself and the New Zealand flag in the drink. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #55 September 8, 2006 QuoteQuote(we need to do that again! ) Airtwardo and myself are already on the load for the 2103 celebration. YUP! I'm packed already! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #56 September 8, 2006 jumping up and down, waving hands in the air Oh, pick me, pick me. I want to go. I missed the whole event last time, but got a few calls from there after people had jumped in. I want to attend! If I'm really nice to you and Sparky, ya think you can get me an in? And no, I don't mean "nice" in that wayMay your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #57 September 8, 2006 >>But the PRO rating is noe of the things I think the USPA did right.<< Ron, you are so wrong on that - let me count the ways . . . Prior to the "pro" program the only way to get on demos was, in general, to be picked or asked by the guys who were already established and doing them. You learned at the feet of experienced demo jumpers who wouldn't risk their livelihoods and reputations on the inexperienced or the "wrong" jumpers. The FAA, at least in my area, dealt with people they knew, and if just any old license holder walked in and asked for a demo wavier they were shown the door. Then all of a sudden here comes USPA's pro program – this allowed jumpers who were refused entry onto demos by experienced jumpers, for whatever reason, another path to take. They could do their own demos. The FAA started to recognize the pro rating and bang – the peer review was over, now all it took to do demos was paperwork and things that never happened before started happening. Jumpers began biffing on demos more than ever and, far worse, we also started killing and injuring spectators. Standing ten jumps up in the peas on you home DZ does not make you a demo jumper! Especially when it's possible your pro rating is signed off by someone who's never done a demo either. It takes baby steps like being bucket boy (dropping the smoke in the bucket for wind direction) or general ground crewing on a number of real demos, before you get the nod. Your first demos should be big open ones and gradually you'd move up to the tighter stuff. But no more – we've descended to the point where a jumper, who's obviously ill prepared, is asking for permission on this forum to jump a small canopy into a stadium demo – we are so screwed - especially nowadays when prospective demo jumpers have absolutely no accuracy skills to begin with. That whole pro thing should be shelved in favor of regional DemoMasters that oversee who does demos and who doesn't. There must be an experienced human in the loop – somebody who is demo savvy and stands between the idiots and the killing of another spectator. And it's really not the small canopies that are a problem as some demos lend themselves to swooping and the crowds love it, but you have to know when it's appropriate and when it's not. Right now we are leaving that decision in the wrong people's hands . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #58 September 9, 2006 QuotePrior to the "pro" program the only way to get on demos was, in general, to be picked or asked by the guys who were already established and doing them. Pryor to the “Pro” program it was the "good ole boy" system. If someone got a demo he asked his buddies whether they could do the job or not. Kind of hit & miss wouldn't you say? QuoteThen all of a sudden here comes USPA's pro program – this allowed jumpers who were refused entry onto demos by experienced jumpers, for whatever reason, another path to take. Many qualified jumpers were refused entry onto demos by the same “good ole boy’ system mentioned before. It was the fox watching the hen house. Quotethe peer review was over, now all it took to do demos was paperwork and things that never happened before started happening. The “Pro” program set up a national peer review in the form of demonstrated ability and a written test covering need to know items on doing a safe demo. QuoteStanding ten jumps up in the peas on you home DZ does not make you a demo jumper! Especially when it's possible your pro rating is signed off by someone who's never done a demo either. And neither does being picked by your buddy make you a demo jumper. In your area most of the new Pro rated jumpers are signed off by a guy name Jim Wallace. Do you think he has done enough demos to qualify. QuoteIt takes baby steps like being bucket boy (dropping the smoke in the bucket for wind direction) or general ground crewing on a number of real demos, before you get the nod. Before the “Pro” rating many demos would happen without any ground crew and many of the jumpers would make the jump having never seen the target. Quoteespecially nowadays when prospective demo jumpers have absolutely no accuracy skills to begin with. That is a pretty bold statement. How would you know what skills a prospective demo jump might have? QuoteThat whole pro thing should be shelved in favor of regional DemoMasters that oversee who does demos and who doesn't. There must be an experienced human in the loop – somebody who is demo savvy and stands between the idiots and the killing of another spectator. There is a position in place that oversees all demos that are done legally; it is called S&TA, Regional Director or National Director. They are required to sign off on all demos. Get you fact straight Nick, and don’t let you emotions cloud you view of reality.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #59 September 11, 2006 QuoteRon, you are so wrong on that - let me count the ways Sure...but please allow me to counter. QuotePrior to the "pro" program the only way to get on demos was, in general, to be picked or asked by the guys who were already established and doing them. You learned at the feet of experienced demo jumpers who wouldn't risk their livelihoods and reputations on the inexperienced or the "wrong" jumpers. The FAA, at least in my area, dealt with people they knew, and if just any old license holder walked in and asked for a demo wavier they were shown the door. ....Or, some guy with little to no experience got a group of his buddies to jump into a demo with little to no training. Seen this MANY times...Hell did it many times. It was not until I spent 3 years on a real Demo team that I learned how much is really in a demo. The PRO rating, if done correctly, showed that you ALREADY spent some time under the wings of an experienced demo guy. Not just the "hope" you will. QuoteThen all of a sudden here comes USPA's pro program – this allowed jumpers who were refused entry onto demos by experienced jumpers, for whatever reason, another path to take. They could do their own demos. The FAA started to recognize the pro rating and bang – the peer review was over, now all it took to do demos was paperwork and things that never happened before started happening. Jumpers began biffing on demos more than ever and, far worse, we also started killing and injuring spectators. Got facts? I seem to recall the accident rate went DOWN after the PRO rating. QuoteStanding ten jumps up in the peas on you home DZ does not make you a demo jumper! Neither does being beer drinking buddies with the guy who knows the people who control the half time activity at the local stadium....But I was invited on demos for just that reason....Oh and standing at the DZ the morning of a demo. QuoteEspecially when it's possible your pro rating is signed off by someone who's never done a demo either. Then you did not follow the PRO rating at all...It requires a briefing on smoke and flags, AND filling out paperwork. Pencil whipped PRO's are on the same level as the "Bubba's beer drinking buddies" demo school. From the SIM: Quote(4) have the PRO Rating Proficiency card signed off by an I/E, S&TA, or PRO Rating holder indicating that the PRO Rating applicant has received training in the following areas: (i) ground crew-and served as a ground crew member on at least one Level 1 or Level 2 demo jump (ii) flag rigging-and made at least one jump with a flag (iii) smoke rigging-and made at least one jump with smoke (iv) NOTAM filing and certificates of authorization (v) crowd control (vi) post-jump procedures QuoteThat whole pro thing should be shelved in favor of regional DemoMasters that oversee who does demos and who doesn't. There must be an experienced human in the loop Ah, but the problem there is maybe you don't like me, even though I might be very qualified to do a demo...so you never let me. I don't DISAGREE with more local control. And I really think that there should be more serious training before doing ANY demo...But the PRO rating is a start. It provides a "basic" understanding that is much better than how it used to be IMO. Quote And it's really not the small canopies that are a problem as some demos lend themselves to swooping and the crowds love it, but you have to know when it's appropriate and when it's not. Right now we are leaving that decision in the wrong people's hands . . . But the wrong people with and without PRO ratings. The PRO rating being required at least prevents some of these *if followed*. For example you could not get your swoop on if you follwed the Pro based on (from the SIM): Quote3. Conditions a. The smallest canopy used during qualification will be the smallest size canopy to be used for minimum landing area (Level 2) jumps, and the canopy size will be noted on the PRO Rating card. And currency is also covered: Quote1. Open Field and Level 1, as defined by USPA and accepted by the FAA (all of the following): c. 50 jumps within the past 12 months d. five jumps within the previous 60 days using the samd model and size canopy to be used on the demonstration jump 2. Level 2 and Stadium, as defined by USPA and accepted by the FAA (all of the following): b. 50 jumps within the past 12 months c. five jumps within the previous 60 days using the samd model and size canopy to be used on the demonstration jump So, if the PRO rating is actually followed, then people HAVE to work with a guy that is already doing demos. And they have to meet certain skill requirements and have certain knowledge."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #60 September 11, 2006 That whole pro thing should be shelved in favor of regional DemoMasters that oversee who does demos and who doesn't. There must be an experienced human in the loop – somebody who is demo savvy and stands between the idiots and the killing of another spectator. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a position in place that oversees all demos that are done legally; it is called S&TA, Regional Director or National Director. They are required to sign off on all demos. *** The idea of a 'local' DemoMaster ...as well as the current requirements of the S&TA, Regional or National Director won't / don't work very well. I routinely do demonstration jumps all over the United States. How is someone I've never met before supposed to judge MY skills and give me the nod? We as a matter of procedure, ALWAYS notify the regional director or S&TA in the area that we will be performing. We explain who we are, what, how and when we will be doing a demo. We always invite the person to come to the site and check it out, check US out, check the gear etc. out...NEVER ONCE in the 25 years I've been doing large venue demo has anyone followed up on that invitation. To the contrary, I've had a few 'disgruntled' S&TA's try to throw a monkey wrench into the works because THEY didn't like the idea of some 'out of towners' coming in and not only taking 'their' demo away, and setting the bar high above what 'they' had been doing AT demos......'reverse' good ole boy When the program (PRO) first began, there WAS a considerable amount of penciled in people, those in power gave the 'nod' to those they thought qualified...I think a lot of that went away as the program progressed. Most if not all the people I run into these days that have the rating, earned it. Is the rating program as it stands enough to insure uniform compliance? No..it's not. Like many things 'on the books' these days, the rules, if followed, are if nothing else a set of guidelines that hopefully will make a demo and the jumpers safe. If the rules are disregarded then what you have is a recurrence of the old days 'jungle rules' demos. As Ron pointed out, the rules are there, is up to us as a group to follow them. How this can be done is a good question. One that I don't have an answer to. Yes more oversight and enforcement is needed, a 'local' demomaster isn't necessarily they way because that's basically what is supposed to be happening NOW. I suggested some time back that both the requirements and the fees to obtain and hold a PRO Rating should be raised, and was summarily flamed for the suggestion. I felt that in doing so a higher degree of commitment and involvement would be needed to be able to perform demos. Maybe so, maybe not...I DO see the valid points in an argument AGAINST that. As it is we have a fairly good system, if followed, already in place. I think there are a lot of 'band-aids' on it, but it's kind of up to 'us all' to see that it works. We as rating holders need to discourage unsafe demo participation, those that have questions and seek advice...need to FOLLOW that advise and not attempt something not within the spirit of the standing rules. Without oversight and enforcement the PRO is nothing more than a patch. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #61 September 12, 2006 QuoteWe as a matter of procedure, ALWAYS notify the regional director or S&TA in the area that we will be performing. We explain who we are, what, how and when we will be doing a demo. We always invite the person to come to the site and check it out, check US out, check the gear etc. out...NEVER ONCE in the 25 years I've been doing large venue demo has anyone followed up on that invitation. This is a requirement to do a demo, get it “signed off” by the RD or local S&TA. It could be due the reputation of Liberty the local official does not feel the need to bird-dog your actions. Or they are just too lazy to comply with their responsibilities. Now I wonder which it is. QuoteTo the contrary, I've had a few 'disgruntled' S&TA's try to throw a monkey wrench into the works because THEY didn't like the idea of some 'out of towners' coming in and not only taking 'their' demo away, and setting the bar high above what 'they' had been doing AT demos... ...'reverse' good ole boy This is inexcusable on the part of any USPA official. Their function is to assure you are within the guidelines and to assist you where needed. It is not their job to put up roadblocks. There are others that a demo team must deal with that have that job. Even with the inequities I think it is better than the old days. Quoteand setting the bar high above what 'they' had been doing It is hard to believe how much this can ruffle feathers.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #62 September 13, 2006 QuoteQuote As to borrowed rig, I would point out that the PRO is ONLY valid for a canopy the same size or larger than the one used to qualify. Although you can requalify with just 3 jumps under an arbitrarily small canopy. This is going to be sort of tough with go fast pocket rocket. d. To requalify on a smaller canopy: (1) The rating holder must make three successive, pre-declared jumps, making the first contact and stopping within a circle ten meters in diameter with that canopy. (2) All landings must be made standing up and be verified by an S&TA, I/E, USPA Judge, or a Regional or National Director.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #63 September 13, 2006 Give me 10 knots of wind, and I can land my Triathlon 120 within that circle. I might be able to do it on a Tri 99 in a couple dozen jumps. No rules would stop me from then jumping a Velo 99 (or bigger) into demoes, or am I reading this wrong? And isn't it meant to be sort of tough?Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SwampThing 0 #64 September 13, 2006 Quote...with that canopy. *** No RULE can stop you from doing ANYTHING! If you don't have the common sense to follow them or figure out why they are there in the 1st place. The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!" The Optimist says: "Sure it can!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #65 September 13, 2006 QuoteThe rating holder must make three successive, pre-declared jumps, making the first contact and stopping within a circle ten meters in diameter with that canopy. I didn't find that very hard. I had to 18 to get my rating because I got interupted by the winter and had to start over in the spring. I did these at a 1.9 wingloading without any misses. Touching down and stopping in a short distance isn't the prefered way to land, but it's certainly doable. If you really know your canopy, I think the pro requirements are attainable on all but the very highest wingloadings. (appropriateness is a different subject). _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #66 September 13, 2006 Quote This is going to be sort of tough with go fast pocket rocket. d. To requalify on a smaller canopy: (1) The rating holder must make three successive, pre-declared jumps, making the first contact and stopping within a circle ten meters in diameter with that canopy. I'm a mediocre canopy pilot. With a little currency, stopping a Samurai 105 in a couple steps is not a problem with wing loadings under 1.9 pounds/square foot, density altitudes under 9-10,000 feet MSL, and no tail wind. Pilots at sea level under cross-braced canopies should be able to go much smaller. You just swoop, sink so your feet would be below ground level, and pop back up at the end to kill your forward speed. Looks like the high scoring zone in swoop accuracy now requires a standup landing within 6' of the first point of contact http://www.canopypiloting.com/zones.gif Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #67 September 13, 2006 QuoteGive me 10 knots of wind, and I can land my Triathlon 120 within that circle. I might be able to do it on a Tri 99 in a couple dozen jumps. No rules would stop me from then jumping a Velo 99 (or bigger) into demoes, or am I reading this wrong? And isn't it meant to be sort of tough? I think the requirements are easy...I have done it under several canopies from 0.9 to 2.0 WL's. It is not hard, but it is better than the requirements we had before....nothing. All you needed to do before was breathe and be standing in the right area. Even if the PRO rating is not perfect, it is a step in the right direction. If people actually followed the steps needed to get the PRO it would be even better."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #68 September 13, 2006 QuoteQuote...with that canopy. ***No RULE can stop you from doing ANYTHING! If you don't have the common sense to follow them or figure out why they are there in the 1st place.I'd qualify with that canopy, and then be within the rules to jump any canopy the same size or larger into demoes. And rules haven't stopped me from doing anything for quite a while. Which does not at all imply I'll actually go and do just anything. So please don't you imply any such thing. I was pointing out the letter of the law.Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #69 September 14, 2006 Do you DO a lot of demos in the USA? If not why worry about WHAT the USPA has to say? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #70 September 14, 2006 On last count, uhm, zero But rules interest me. If only because they might be imported Greetings from Holland (the one in Europe ), where we do not have rules for demoes, but do have rules for wingloading, size, currency and experience. But you knew that, didn't you?Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #71 September 14, 2006 QuoteGive me 10 knots of wind, and I can land my Triathlon 120 within that circle. I might be able to do it on a Tri 99 in a couple dozen jumps. No rules would stop me from then jumping a Velo 99 (or bigger) into demoes, or am I reading this wrong? And isn't it meant to be sort of tough? And if a frog had wings he wounldn't bump his ass.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #72 September 14, 2006 I'll let you know when I have made my 10 predeclared jumps landing in a 10m circle I won't be doing it for you, either, I'll be doing it for me The rule doesn't strike me as totally silly, even though I still think it's silly you can qualify on a different type of canopy than you're going to jump into the demo. But you just can't make rules for everything, or you'd end up with the amount of rules we already have. Oh wait Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #73 September 14, 2006 QuoteThe rule doesn't strike me as totally silly, even though I still think it's silly you can qualify on a different type of canopy than you're going to jump into the demo. It shows you can do it...And you have to have five jumps within the previous 60 days using the same model and size canopy to be used on the demonstration jump. Not perfect, but better than it was: "Hey Ron, wanna do a demo tomorrow? I have a canopy you can jump!""No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #74 September 14, 2006 And it shows you were willing to show it. Five jumps on the same model and size should be a non-issue .. right? Right? (Well, maybe, if upsizing for the demo .. )Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
