Ron 10
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Ron 10
QuoteRight, but that doesn't have anything to do with this discussion.
The thread, no.... The discussion between us, yes.
The point is a gun or any other thing is not responsible for an action.
A gun can't kill anymore than a hammer can build a house.
QuoteUhm, no. A crime has not been prevented in either scenario. A crime has not escalated.
Uh, yes. A criminal coming up and demanding money is different in escalation than if the criminal had a weapon. Same with defense.
QuoteI agree. But that does not provide proof that crime has been prevented. Which is what the discussion was about.
Study's with prisoners show that THEY say the fear of encountering an armed person changes their behavior. What more do you want? You have the criminals themselves saying it.
QuoteRight, which is different from proof.
There is as much 'proof' to defend your position as their is 'proof' to defend mine.
And this thread also was discussing the rate of new guns and the reduction in crime rates.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
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You're expecting logical consistency, or facts, or anything, out of him? Dream on.
It's reasonable expectation as I'm not pro-gun.
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The common characteristic to these violent developing countries is not gun laws, but a lack of credible law enforcement.
Apparently there seems to be little difference in allowing gun ownership (Brazil) versus banning it but not enforcing the ban (Mexico). That is why the ban needs to be enforced, as I stated long time ago.
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QuoteThis particular study should be on a Dept. of Justice web site somewhere.
I would like to get more narrow link that "somewhere", and I will form my own opinion about it once I get through.
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JohnRich 4
QuoteQuoteThis particular study should be on a Dept. of Justice web site somewhere.
I would like to get more narrow link that "somewhere", and I will form my own opinion about it once I get through.
Since you've shown no ability to learn from the facts presented to you, I'm in no mood to chase it down for you. It seems to me, that your mind is already made up. Good luck in your hunt.
What the heck, there's hope for others.
"The Armed Criminal in America"
Wright's 5 page summary of his 70+ page article published by the NIJ:
http://rkba.org/research/wright/armed-criminal.summary.html
Gee, that took all of two minutes on Google. I guess you weren't interested enough to conduct that intensive research yourself.
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Sounds kinda like the US no? We have plenty of gun law on the books (too many?) that would do the job IF ENFORCED.
I doubt they would do anything good if they were enforced on EVERYONE (and not only on those who committed crimes afterwards). Most likely the law enforcement resources would be wasted checking out everyone who had a website depicting gun crimes or buying several propane tanks.
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Look around at available info and you will find that the majority of gun crimes are committed with ILLEGAL guns. stolen guns, straw bought guns, etc.
That's why gun ban seriously reduces the amount of crimes committed with stolen guns (much less guns available to stole, and they are guarded much better), and pretty much eliminates crimes with straw purchased guns.
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How 'bout we enforce the laws we have before trying to make any more.
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Agree - I would speculate that punishing straw purchasers or those who were negligent and let their guns being stolen (or "stolen") by mandatory life sentence without parole would reduce this kind of crimes as well. So I would consider this option too :)
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Since you've shown no ability to learn from the facts presented to you, I'm in no mood to chase it down for you. It seems to me, that your mind is already made up. Good luck in your hunt.
Since you didn't present any facts besides that such a study exists somewhere (which was not disputed BTW, so you just wasted time), there is nothing to discuss either. Expecting me to search for a needle in a haystack only because you told me it's there is naive.
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mnealtx 0
QuoteThat is why the ban needs to be enforced, as I stated long time ago.
The choice of violent criminals everywhere - makes sure that THEY'RE the only ones with weapons.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
JohnRich 4
QuoteSince you didn't present any facts besides that such a study exists somewhere (which was not disputed BTW, so you just wasted time), there is nothing to discuss either. Expecting me to search for a needle in a haystack only because you told me it's there is naive.
Back up and see message #316. This just goes to prove that you aren't willing to even look for things that are contrary to your previous beliefs. And also proves that you're not worthing wasting time upon.
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The choice of violent criminals everywhere - makes sure that THEY'RE the only ones with weapons.
This works pretty well in Europe, where the ban exists and is being enforced, and I wouldn't say it is full of violent criminals. I guess the reason is that when penalty for having in possession (not just carrying, even storing in your home) an illegal weapon is grave enough, it makes little sense for most criminals to even try it. If a pick-pocketer got caught and the police is called, he still might get away with it as it is not easy to prove that he indeed was pickpocketing. But if they search him and find an illegal gun - nobody gonna even bother about pickpocketing, he'll do much heavier for the gun itself.
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JohnRich 4
QuoteThis works pretty well in Europe, where the ban exists and is being enforced, and I wouldn't say it is full of violent criminals. I guess the reason is that when penalty for having in possession (not just carrying, even storing in your home) an illegal weapon is grave enough, it makes little sense for most criminals to even try it. If a pick-pocketer got caught and the police is called, he still might get away with it as it is not easy to prove that he indeed was pickpocketing. But if they search him and find an illegal gun - nobody gonna even bother about pickpocketing, he'll do much heavier for the gun itself.
Handguns were banned in England, with still penalties for possession. Yet their gun crime rate keeps skyrocketing. How do you explain that? Perhaps criminals don't give a damn about the law, figure they won't get caught, and don't think the way you think they think.
So, we can believe you, who won't even bother to look up "wright and rossi" on google. Or we can believe Wright and Rossi who have done decades of scientific criminal justice research. I know where I'm throwing my support.
QuoteBack up and see message #316. This just goes to prove that you aren't willing to even look for things that are contrary to your previous beliefs.
I didn't say this study proves this and that - you did. So this is your job to prove your statement, not mine. Based on the fact that nobody from a local gun lobby provided a link to the actual study so far, my conclusion is that it is not that easy to find as you claim, and if you do not want to waste time finding it, I see much less reasons for me to do so.
I'm also getting an impression that none of you quoting the study here actually read it.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
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Handguns were banned in England, with still penalties for possession. Yet their gun crime rate keeps skyrocketing. How do you explain that?
Could you please clarify "keeps skyrocketing"? At least Home Office statistics (see page 43) does not give such impression. While the rate was up in 2001-2003, it was going down in 2004-2006. I didn't find more recent statistics though, so if you have one, let me know.
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So, we can believe you, who won't even bother to look up "wright and rossi" on google. Or we can believe Wright and Rossi who have done decades of scientific criminal justice research. I know where I'm throwing my support.
I wonder why would one want to believe? This is not church (where you have no other options), and we're not talking about imaginable non-existing Jesus either. You said there is a real study we can read - so present it.
Another point is that if you didn't read the study report yourself, you're not "believing Wright and Rossi", you're believing someone else who read the study and interpreted the result as they wanted.
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
mnealtx 0
QuoteQuote
The choice of violent criminals everywhere - makes sure that THEY'RE the only ones with weapons.
This works pretty well in Europe, where the ban exists and is being enforced, and I wouldn't say it is full of violent criminals. I guess the reason is that when penalty for having in possession (not just carrying, even storing in your home) an illegal weapon is grave enough, it makes little sense for most criminals to even try it. If a pick-pocketer got caught and the police is called, he still might get away with it as it is not easy to prove that he indeed was pickpocketing. But if they search him and find an illegal gun - nobody gonna even bother about pickpocketing, he'll do much heavier for the gun itself.
A pickpocket isn't going to need a gun. Since the general populace is unarmed, the criminals (by and large) don't "need" guns to do their work, they just need to be bigger/stronger than their victims.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
Proof to back that up? Cause it does not jive with reality.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/02/crimes.disabled/index.html
So once again, you don't know what you are talking about.
Awaiting your lame excuse.....
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