Whale Wars Heats UP!

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

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The point lies in the silliness of not knowing/caring how that burger or sausage got to the table, while the harvesting of cute animals is horribly wrong.

Perhaps I missed something as I did not see where Rweider expressed any sentiment about burgers or sausage.

For me, again, it must be sustainable and humane (among other things) and even then I probably would continue not eating it at all.

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

At work the other day... we were wondering what would happen if the Sea Sheppard hippies decided to try to go after the Deadliest Catch guys to try to stop crabbing in the gulf of Alaska? I suppose that's not very high on their list as crabs aren't nearly as cuddly as whales!

Anyway, we thought too that if they were to bring back Celebrity Death Match that a triple threat tag team match of Paul Watson & his "cabin boy" vs. Sig & Edgar Hansen and John & Andy Hillstrand would be a riot!

[pinkfairy 0]

I was just wondering why Sea Shepherd don't go after norwegian whalers. There hasn't been any Sea Shepherd activity in Norway for a long time. And I was presenting some facts that might explain that.

Note that Kelpdiver cites an american source for the Minke whale's conservation status. American fisheries authorities has no interest in keeping the consevation status of the minke whale updated. Sorry about my poor source in my previous post, but here is the consevation status on the IUCN Red List: http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/2474/0

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[kelpdiver 2]

I cited no sources for anything here.

[headoverheels 333]

Does Princess Cruises have a whaling permit? They've bagged 3.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38482222/ns/us_news-environment/

[Andy9o8 2]

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it's not very nice when other predators eat those baby seals either.

Well, of course, agriculture is unique to humans. Outside of captivity, there have been only two bears in history that have been able to sustain themselves in the wild using purely human-like methods.

These guys.

[rwieder 0]

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I was just wondering why Sea Shepherd don't go after norwegian whalers. There hasn't been any Sea Shepherd activity in Norway for a long time. And I was presenting some facts that might explain that

The reason they don't go after them (The Sea Shephard Group That Is) is because of $$$$ Plain & simple. By the way the Ady Gil belonged to Pete Bethune, who was the skipper of the same. The boat was designed to cruise around the world in record time. Constructed of Carbon Fibre, Urathane & Fibre Glass, it was out of it's element when it got rammed by the Harpoon Vessell "Shoni Maru # 2. The Jappers can cry all they want, the turned 40° starboard bow to ram the vessell. They didn't intend to cut off but about 2' max, but wound up cutting 6' to 10' on the port bow section. Squinty eyed little bastards know what they done, we saw actual footage of the incident, how could they possibly say the Ady Gil turned in front of them??????? The Ady Gil was running on fumes and waiting on the "Bob Barker" to intercept and resupply their provisions and fuel supplies when the Yoshin maru # 2 rammed her. Now in the japs defense, Pete bethune should have never allowed his craft be idle at ant time when he knew the Japenese Harpoon Vessel was in such close proximity. In either event, it should never have happened.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[turtlespeed 221]

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Japs, wops, dagos, micks doesn't matter to me. Paul Watson is their only protector every season. He also has campaigns to stop murdering baby seals. There has been violent attacks on the Steve Irwan's crew when they got off of the boat and walked over the frozen white tundra to confront these murdering bastards.

Pinkfairy's point is what's so evil about sustainable harvesting? Your words show that you consider these species to be above our consumption.

How is a baby seal different from veal?

I believe that Whales are a LOT more intelligent than we give them credit for.

I believe that they may even be sentient.

I doubt that baby seals are, intelligence ranks near cattle and sheep.

Maybe an obscure line, but one that I am comfortable with. Sometimes.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

While bull-shitting during a break at work today... we were wondering how the Deadlist Catch guys would get along with the Sea Shepard guys??? ... could be an opportunity for Discovery and Animal Planet to do a cross-over reality show!!??

[turtlespeed 221]

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While bull-shitting during a break at work today... we were wondering how the Deadlist Catch guys would get along with the Sea Shepard guys??? ... could be an opportunity for Discovery and Animal Planet to do a cross-over reality show!!??

I think it would be alot like the Geico-Caveman-Wizard commercial.
"Could you have a steward come get these? I'll be right back - I have to get a cappacino"

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[StreetScooby 5]

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I believe that Whales are a LOT more intelligent than we give them credit for.

I would have thought someone would have figured out how to use sound to tell the whales to "RUN!!!" when the Japs are around. Maybe they're not as smart as some people think.

We are all engines of karma

[billvon 3,006]

>I would have thought someone would have figured out how to use sound
>to tell the whales to "RUN!!!" when the Japs are around.

Training wild animals and hoping they retain that knowledge in the wild is tough.

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

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I believe that they may even be sentient.

What makes you think so?

Are there any other mammals you believe to be sentient?

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[turtlespeed 221]

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I believe that they may even be sentient.

What makes you think so?

Are there any other mammals you believe to be sentient?

Yes.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

Do you know why you believe whales are sentient beings, or is it just your feeling?

To be clear, I meant other than humans and whales, what other living things do you believe to be sentient?

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[turtlespeed 221]

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Do you know why you believe whales are sentient beings, or is it just your feeling?

To be clear, I meant other than humans and whales, what other living things do you believe to be sentient?

Primates, in some cases. Dolphins(Porpis) have shown self awareness in tests.

As to your first question, it is more of a feeling. There is a large capcity for thought and feeling in the grey matter they possess, and maybe I just want it to be true.

It would be pretty arrogant of us to think that no other species on earth has intelligence enough to be sentient.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,006]

>To be clear, I meant other than humans and whales, what other
>living things do you believe to be sentient?

It is difficult to come up with a definition of sentience that does not include higher primates and cetaceans. Almost every time we run experiments on primates and cetaceans (and even odder animals, like octopuses) we get surprised by the amount of compassion, sympathy, self-awareness, shame, empathy and altruism they can exhibit.

I think it's getting more and more clear that sentience isn't a yes or no question but rather a continuum that ranges from non-sentient to "as sentient as humans are."

[Amazon 7]

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I believe that they may even be sentient.

What makes you think so?

Are there any other mammals you believe to be sentient?

I have had numerous experinces with cetaceans over a lifetime of sailing and diving in locations around the world.

When you are just cruising along far from land and a huge whale twice as long as your boat and keeps pace with you for over an hour just a couple feet from the cockpit of your very small sailboat and that huge eye just looks at you, you realize there is someone in there observing you. You feel no malice coming from them and you get more of a feeling of a being that is at home and adapted to a peaceful existence . You get a sense of playfulness and curiosity that only matches that found in some people.

I have been SCUBA diving in the Straights of Juan de Fuca and have been approached by a male Orca. He also just watched thru those big dark eyes. He made no moves other than to hover there just 5 ft away observing me.... making little noises you could hear as well as feel. I guess if I was a seal I might have been terrified but after being around them in my boats for so many years I have no reason to fear "Killer Whales"

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

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It is difficult to come up with a definition of sentience that does not include higher primates and cetaceans. Almost every time we run experiments on primates and cetaceans (and even odder animals, like octopuses) we get surprised by the amount of compassion, sympathy, self-awareness, shame, empathy and altruism they can exhibit.

I think it's getting more and more clear that sentience isn't a yes or no question but rather a continuum that ranges from non-sentient to "as sentient as humans are."

My sentiment, exactly.

It is curious to me many more people readily call BS on Japan for their "scientific research" on whales, yet not-so-much on the countless "scientific research" studies being done on monkeys and other animals here in the U.S.

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[Amazon 7]

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It is difficult to come up with a definition of sentience that does not include higher primates and cetaceans. Almost every time we run experiments on primates and cetaceans (and even odder animals, like octopuses) we get surprised by the amount of compassion, sympathy, self-awareness, shame, empathy and altruism they can exhibit.

I think it's getting more and more clear that sentience isn't a yes or no question but rather a continuum that ranges from non-sentient to "as sentient as humans are."

My sentiment, exactly.

It is curious to me many more people readily call BS on Japan for their "scientific research" on whales, yet not-so-much on the countless "scientific research" studies being done on monkeys and other animals here in the U.S.

Usually they only place you see monkey meat in markets is in the third world. In Japan you can find whale meat in the supermarkets.

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

While I agree (have been in a tiny raft on more than one occasion surrounded by humpbacks), your response is one of "feeling".

It is obvious people "feel" more compassionately toward certain animals vs. others. The obvious argument is "cute" vs. "non-cute", however what I do not understand is even when presented evidence supporting the "non-cute" animals may be sentient, many people remain indifferent to how we treat them. Humans being sentient beings, it is perplexing more people do not make the connection and still "feel" less for one than the other.

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[Amazon 7]

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While I agree (have been in a tiny raft on more than one occasion surrounded by humpbacks), your response is one of "feeling".

It is obvious people "feel" more compassionately toward certain animals vs. others. The obvious argument is "cute" vs. "non-cute", however what I do not understand is even when presented evidence supporting the "non-cute" animals may be sentient, many people remain indifferent to how we treat them. Humans being sentient beings, it is perplexing more people do not make the connection and still "feel" less for one than the other.

I can sit or stand in front of hundreds of different animals and not "feel" anything from them at all. you can "feel" that there is no one at home in there. When you sit in front of another human being and look into their eyes do you get any clues there might be a sentient being there????

I usually do.... although with some people you get nothing but a vacuous stare back that is palpable.

[turtlespeed 221]

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While I agree (have been in a tiny raft on more than one occasion surrounded by humpbacks), your response is one of "feeling".

It is obvious people "feel" more compassionately toward certain animals vs. others. The obvious argument is "cute" vs. "non-cute", however what I do not understand is even when presented evidence supporting the "non-cute" animals may be sentient, many people remain indifferent to how we treat them. Humans being sentient beings, it is perplexing more people do not make the connection and still "feel" less for one than the other.

I can sit or stand in front of hundreds of different animals and not "feel" anything from them at all. you can "feel" that there is no one at home in there. When you sit in front of another human being and look into their eyes do you get any clues there might be a sentient being there????

I usually do.... although with some people you get nothing but a vacuous stare back that is palpable.

Those are called Democrats.

Expanding back on the sub topic - Carrie's question was limiting - there are fish that I consider sentient as well. For instance Manta Rays.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Amazon 7]

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While I agree (have been in a tiny raft on more than one occasion surrounded by humpbacks), your response is one of "feeling".

It is obvious people "feel" more compassionately toward certain animals vs. others. The obvious argument is "cute" vs. "non-cute", however what I do not understand is even when presented evidence supporting the "non-cute" animals may be sentient, many people remain indifferent to how we treat them. Humans being sentient beings, it is perplexing more people do not make the connection and still "feel" less for one than the other.

I can sit or stand in front of hundreds of different animals and not "feel" anything from them at all. you can "feel" that there is no one at home in there. When you sit in front of another human being and look into their eyes do you get any clues there might be a sentient being there????

I usually do.... although with some people you get nothing but a vacuous stare back that is palpable.

Those are called Democrats.

Expanding back on the sub topic - Carrie's question was limiting - there are fish that I consider sentient as well. For instance Manta Rays.

Hell I have met you.....so I guess there is some wiggle room there on the definition


sen·tient [ sénshənt, sénshee ənt ]


adjective

Definition:

1. conscious: capable of feeling and perception
a sentient being


2. responding with feeling: capable of responding emotionally rather than intellectually

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

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there are fish that I consider sentient as well. For instance Manta Rays.

Just manta rays? Not other rays? I clarified my original question to include any/all living things. Given your original specific example, I was attempting to distinguish whether or not only whales were on your radar. As mentioned previously, it does seem whales garner more sympathy for their plight than others. I am happy there is sympathy at all, but I am trying to understand what makes one so sure about whales, and not-so-much about other animals.

Jeanne seems to think it's in the eyes.

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin