Why are people not more angry at Wall Street?

[kallend 2,027]

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"Most of the tools they have developed were because of regulation not inspite of it. "

WTF are you talking about. Credit default's and exotic derivative were created precisely because there were no regulations to enforce malfeasance . Later you admonish kallend because they had done nothing illegal. Which seems to say you accept there was no regulation in place to force culpability.

Not that is one hell of a spin on my post

You need to learn a little more about Freddi and and Fannie and the role programs Congress put into to place to force lending to people who the banks knew most lilely would not pay the loans back. then look at the reponses the banks took to try and relieve some of the risk forced on them by congressional lending requirments

Unfortunately the FACT is that the defaults that brought down the system were primarily loans to the middle class buyers and investors. The dafault rate on loans to the poor encouraged by the congressional mandates was not above the average for all mortgages over the last several decades.

You have been told this many times previously, but facts seem to have a hard time taking up residence.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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"Most of the tools they have developed were because of regulation not inspite of it. "

WTF are you talking about. Credit default's and exotic derivative were created precisely because there were no regulations to enforce malfeasance . Later you admonish kallend because they had done nothing illegal. Which seems to say you accept there was no regulation in place to force culpability.

Not that is one hell of a spin on my post

You need to learn a little more about Freddi and and Fannie and the role programs Congress put into to place to force lending to people who the banks knew most lilely would not pay the loans back. then look at the reponses the banks took to try and relieve some of the risk forced on them by congressional lending requirments

Unfortunately the FACT is that the defaults that brought down the system were primarily loans to the middle class buyers and investors. The dafault rate on loans to the poor encouraged by the congressional mandates was not above the average for all mortgages over the last several decades.

You have been told this many times previously, but facts seem to have a hard time taking up residence.

I have been "told" this by you. Your partisan glassed keep you blind my friend. What you post is the spin you need to keep your view

The facts are out there,YOU just dont have any

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

It really does not matter who or what class. The fact is the CRA/gov “forced” lenders to lower credit standards.

With those lower standards anyone could over extend themselves and had the opportunity to do so. I can attest to same example as others have listed here. The banks were willing to lend me way more money than I knew I could pay back!!

From Heritage

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The CRA Cover-Up
by Ernest Istook
As always, it's the cover-up that sinks people. Liberals are working overtime to cover up their role in the mortgage meltdown. Not only did they block attempts to reform Government Sponsored Enterprises (GSEs) such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac before they could drag down our economy, but liberals also abused the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA), turning it into a vehicle for directing loans to unqualified homebuyers. The left knows that whoever shapes public understanding of what caused today's economic crisis can shape America's politics -- and its future -- for a great many years to come. Thus, they're pushing the notion that too little government regulation was at fault.
If the country buys this idea, liberals can enact a carbon-copy of FDR's response to the Great Depression, building a larger, more activist and ever-more-controlling federal government. They can exploit the mess by establishing a conventional wisdom that more government is the solution, rather than understanding how big government is a root cause of the current financial meltdown. Claiming it all sprung from a lack of regulation is a half-truth, and a Yiddish proverb says a half truth is a whole lie. Over-regulation opened the money spigot by requiring lenders to make poorly underwritten loans. Under-regulation then allowed politicians to exploit that. Although greed and dishonesty among both borrowers and lenders had major roles, the CRA and the GSEs were at the heart of what happened, setting up the now-toppled dominoes of Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, and others. Over-regulation through CRA, aided by HUD, became a huge problem and, alas, wasn't even addressed in the multi-billion dollar bailout. The Clinton Treasury Department's tough new regulations in 1995 compelled the banks to engage in far-riskier lending practices or receive a failing CRA grade.
To avoid an "F" from the CRA, which could jeopardize their viability, the banks were pressured to direct hundreds of billions of dollars in high-risk mortgages to inner-city and low-income neighborhoods. Moreover, under CRA pressure, banks would "hire" radical, non-profit groups like ACORN to find them customers. Once trillions of dollars began to flow, politicians and lobbyists tapped into this stream, and so did left-wing activist groups. According to George Mason University's Russell Roberts, the CRA was buttressed by other new regulations during the Clinton Administration. As Roberts writes, "For 1996, the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) gave Fannie and Freddie an explicit target -- 42 percent of their mortgage financing had to go to borrowers with income below the median in their area. The target increased to 50 percent in 2000 and 52 percent in 2005. For 1996, HUD required that 12 percent of all mortgage purchases by Fannie and Freddie be "special affordable" loans, typically to borrowers with income less than 60 percent of their area's median income. That number was increased to 20 percent in 2000 and 22 percent in 2005. The 2008 goal was to be 28 percent." The banks were kept from rebelling by using Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's deep pockets to buy these poor-quality loans and take them off the banks' books. Under-regulation of the GSEs -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- allowed the money stream to widen and keep flowing. There has always been an implicit understanding that taxpayers would cover GSE losses and this enabled them to attract money and pour it into the CRA-induced sub-prime market.
The Bush Administration had warned about this for years. Fannie and Freddie, however, could skim enough to pay for political protection, plus pay sky-high executive salaries and bonuses to well-connected political figures. Over the past decade, Fannie and Freddie combined to spend a reported $200 million on lobbying and campaign contributions. Now bailing them out may cost taxpayers $200 billion directly, and far more indirectly. The circle of political back-scratching centered around the theme of affordable housing, which the GSEs marketed heavily. Politicians wanted housing for low-income and poor credit risks, so they used Fannie and Freddie to further that objective, and the GSEs responded with campaign help for those politicians. In return, politicians resisted reforms. This was demonstrated at a 2004 House hearing, where Rep. Maxine Waters (D.-Calif.) denounced attempts to stiffen oversight and regulation of this duo "so as not to impede their affordable housing mission, a mission that has seen innovation flourish, from desktop underwriting to 100 percent loans." "Desktop underwriting" meant undocumented loans. No proof of income or credit history required. And zero down payment. Members of both parties were involved in protecting the system. But liberal Democrats were the dominant force. Recently, House Financial Services Chairman Barney Frank (D-Mass.) told The Boston Globe, "[Republicans'] failure to regulate sensibly ... endangered the economy and ... burdened it with bad stuff.... Their own philosophy blew up in their face. They were so extreme in their insistence that there be no government intervention that they have wound up provoking far more government intervention than the Democrats ever would have." But Frank is covering up his own role because he sang a far different tune in 2003, when the Bush Administration and many Republicans (including Sen. John McCain) tried to require Fannie and Freddie to comply with Securities and Exchange Commission regulations and other additional oversight requirements. Treasury Secretary John Snow, in fact, had specifically warned Congress that Fannie and Freddie needed a new supervisory structure so that both institutions would "maintain capital and reserves sufficient to support the risks that arise or exist in its business." Rep. Frank was unconcerned. He told a hearing, "Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are not in a crisis." Rather, he said, they were "fundamentally sound," and criticisms of them were unjustified exaggerations and "disaster scenarios." Then he confirmed why: "The more pressure there is [to regulate] then the less I think we see in terms of affordable housing" He wanted to continue both the giveaway train supplying mortgages to those who couldn't afford them and the gravy train for politicians. This appealed to liberals and in particular to the Congressional Black Caucus, which received six-figure support from both Fannie and Freddie in 2007. The GSEs' major campaign largesse went to well-placed friends in key positions. The top six from 1998 thru 2008, according to the Center for Responsive Politics: Sen. Chris Dodd (D.-Conn.) $165,400 Sen. Barack Obama (D.-Ill.) $126,349 Sen. John Kerry (D.-Mass.) $111,000 Sen. Robert Bennett (R.-Utah) $107,999 Rep. Spencer Bachus (R.-Ala.) $103,300 Rep. Roy Blunt (R.-Mo.) $ 96,950 And almost everyone in Congress got something.
The GSEs lobbied hard, too. Their combined lobbying budget averaged $17 million a year. As described by Rep. Chris Shays (R.-Conn.), "They hire every lobbyist they can possibly hire. They hire some people to lobby and they hire other people not to lobby so the opposition cannot hire them." But friends at the top were not enough. They needed them in every community, too. The Community Reinvestment Act guaranteed a steady stream of low-quality, but highly political, loans. Congress passed the CRA in 1977 to combat "redlining," a lending practice that prevented loans to minority communities. Clinton Administration regulations in the '90s added teeth to CRA, requiring banks to show compliance with meeting low-income loan targets or face civil actions that could assess a $500,000 penalty for each violation. Banks were "encouraged" to comply by hiring community groups (including ACORN) who contracted with financiers to steer low-income applicants to their institutions. As the Manhattan Institute's Howard Husock wrote in 2000: "The Senate Banking Committee has estimated that, as a result of CRA, $9.5 billion so far has gone to pay for services and salaries of the nonprofit groups involved." The left created the system that paid its community organizers very handsomely, thanks to the regulations on the financial community.
As The Heritage Foundation's J.D. Foster recently noted, "While a worthy cause, the net effect [of CRA] is often to encourage loans at lower credit standards and to encourage people to buy houses they really cannot afford." The net effect has also brought the economy to the brink of disaster. But unless the American public is told, re-told, and educated about how we got here, there won't be reform of the bailed-out-but-still-alive GSEs nor of the CRA. Then we would witness more big government, giving us far more help than we can afford.

So your “facts” as you like to call them may be technically be rooted in some truth, one still needs to look at your statements and place your “told you so fact” in the proper context so the real truth can be seen.

Again my friend, this is not all of it but it is a big part. To ignore it will only allow our gov to do this to all of us yet again

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Darius11 12]

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much worse things in the world than someone who gets a big bonus. Is it worth it?

Its not about the bonus, its about how much your willing to get fucked and when is enough enough. Like i said your money do whatever you want with it, but when you take public money then it is a diffrent story.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Bolas 5]

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If they don't pay big, they can't attract the best skills

You mean like the people that got them into this mess or let it happen?

When the economy is in the toilet, bonuses aren't really needed as most aren't likely to change jobs as there is a surplus of willing workers.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Darius11 12]

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No, ignorant is advocating executing bad businessmen.

There are people who make mistakes and people who take advantage.

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Actually, completely fucking stupid. No American would suggest it.

Really No American would I find it so incredibly retarded that you feel you can generalize all Americans and all Iranians? FUCKING RETARDED. Really the stupidest fucking thing I have seen on SC in a while and that’s saying a lot.

I have no response I really don't. If you can not see the error in your statement well.............

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[kelpdiver 2]

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Actually, completely fucking stupid. No American would suggest it.

Really No American would I find it so incredibly retarded that you feel you can generalize all Americans and all Iranians? FUCKING RETARDED. Really the stupidest fucking thing I have seen on SC in a while and that’s saying a lot.

I have no response I really don't. If you can not see the error in your statement well.............

Honestly, I'm thinking exactly the same about your post. But to help you out - I'll amend it to any true American with any understanding of our Constitution and justice system.

Obama is pandering to the fools with this rage. Details and facts have no part in the conversation, just that fat cats got money and that's unfair. WAH!

[Darius11 12]

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I'm very pissed off over the entire situation I just don't take it out on the banks entirely. There was de-regulation going on for years before this happened which allowed the situation to develop. The government almost forced the banks t lower lending standards during the 90's because politicians saw it as political gold to put every American in a home(I'm not pointing a finger at any one politician or president in particular it was a cumulative effort by many). If we really want to dig deep we can trace this back a few decades to when politicians first started saying every American deserved a home a two cars.

I agree with all of that. Also the homes price skyrocketed because there was way too much demand artificial demand. No I understand the economics of it, and one of the people who designed the cluster fuck is Mr. Frank.

I get what happened. Like I said there have been two times in my life where I am absolutely blown away by how people didn’t do any thing. Once was when habeas corpus was suspended and the other was this 2nd bonus that is directly from the profit they made which is not really profit but the money they took from us.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 2,991]

>Its not about the bonus, its about how much your willing to get fucked . . .

OK, so take away the bonus. Who is fucking you?

[Darius11 12]

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You're right that banks held a huge piece of this pie, but they were only playing by the rules which had been distorted by Washington to work in their favor. And when it comes to bonuses if a company has paid back its funds I could care less who they give bonuses too. If people don't like it they should take their business and investments elsewhere.

No I agree with you if they paid back the money they can do what they wish.

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How can we really be pissed off at just the banks for taking government money when we have things like the GM bailout where the pres. gave the dirtbag union workers whatever they wanted and forced the bond holders who had a "contract" with GM for their money take the hit? Should we tax Ford to pay for GM's money? Or what about the people who had their mortgages bought by the government and were given a lower rate and a lower principle at no cost to them?

So your saying there is so many people we should be pissed at why pick on the banks?

I guess were kind of saying the same thing. There is so many things that are happening that just seem not right. I guess for the bankers getting bonuses from our money when unemployment is over 10% that was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. It is like a giant fuck you.

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The whole system went to crap and everyone is holding an equal part of the blame, best thing to do is focus on fixing it and seeing to it that it doesn't happen again.

Well That is the most frustrating part of it all. When there are no consequences nothing will change. Kind of the reason i made this whole thread.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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Honestly, I'm thinking exactly the same about your post. But to help you out - I'll amend it to any true American with any understanding of our Constitution and justice system.

Obama is pandering to the fools with this rage. Details and facts have no part in the conversation, just that fat cats got money and that's unfair. WAH!

I see where your ignorance comes from. You assume too much.
What makes you think that he gets none of the blame?

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I'll amend it to any true American with any understanding of our Constitution and justice system.

What is a true American?

If you mean naturally born citizen, then I can say with certainty that I know a lot more about the constitution, and the history of America then your average “true” American.


Like I said your statement before is a great window in to your mind. ANY ONE who thinks they can sum up a whole country of people because of the action of one person is retarded.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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OK, so take away the bonus. Who is fucking you?

It’s odd trying to have a conversation with some of you. It’s almost as if you break your necks as your trying too miss the point. Now I understand for some SC is a circle jerk of always being the devils advocate so you can feel good about your self. That’s great. However do you really not get it?

I mean do I have to spend hours trying to explain how the economy was effected, how people who are willing to work, and have skills to offer have suffered.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[happythoughts 0]

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Unfortunately the FACT is that the defaults that brought down the system were primarily loans to the middle class buyers and investors. The dafault rate on loans to the poor encouraged by the congressional mandates was not above the average for all mortgages over the last several decades.

You have been told this many times previously, but facts seem to have a hard time taking up residence.

This has all seemed like Savings and Loan Scandal - Part Deux.

People with good credit were given too much credit.

Due to poor social programs, people with poor/no credit were given too much.

Doomed to failure.

[kelpdiver 2]

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What is a true American?

If you mean naturally born citizen, then I can say with certainty that I know a lot more about the constitution, and the history of America then your average “true” American.


Like I said your statement before is a great window in to your mind. ANY ONE who thinks they can sum up a whole country of people because of the action of one person is retarded.

Well, I'm using your actions as well as that of Ahmadinejad and his government. So it's at least two people.

True Americans don't believe in killing others for different viewpoints. Or without committing a crime. They also don't let emotion cloud their ability to rationally view a problem.

[mnealtx 0]

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Obama is pandering to the fools with this rage. Details and facts have no part in the conversation, just that fat cats got money and that's unfair. WAH!

"I'm the only thing standing between you and the pitchforks"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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This has all seemed like Savings and Loan Scandal - Part Deux.

People with good credit were given too much credit.

Due to poor social programs, people with poor/no credit were given too much.

Doomed to failure.

There is a lack of personal responsibility when people fail to recognize how much debt they should have reasonably take on. Just because the lender said "we will lend you XXXXXX.XX amount" does not mean it is smart to do so. We keep hearing people complain that the banks did this and that the banks did that (and yes banks are run by greedy slime bucket ####suckers). But the bank never forced anyone to sign on the dotted line.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rushmc 23]

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OK, so take away the bonus. Who is fucking you?

It’s odd trying to have a conversation with some of you. It’s almost as if you break your necks as your trying too miss the point. Now I understand for some SC is a circle jerk of always being the devils advocate so you can feel good about your self. That’s great. However do you really not get it?

I mean do I have to spend hours trying to explain how the economy was effected, how people who are willing to work, and have skills to offer have suffered.

Serious
why do YOU feel you are the one, the only one, with a valid point? Many here dont "break thier necks" to miss the point, they just don't agree with yours.

I know the economy was affected, but I dont feel your view point is correct at all.

So, be mad if you need to be. But be mad at the right org., person, party and then we may have a shot at really stopping this from happening again

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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This has all seemed like Savings and Loan Scandal - Part Deux.

People with good credit were given too much credit.

Due to poor social programs, people with poor/no credit were given too much.

Doomed to failure.

There is a lack of personal responsibility when people fail to recognize how much debt they should have reasonably take on. Just because the lender said "we will lend you XXXXXX.XX amount" does not mean it is smart to do so. We keep hearing people complain that the banks did this and that the banks did that (and yes banks are run by greedy slime bucket ####suckers). But the bank never forced anyone to sign on the dotted line.

The true root of the issue. Nicely stated

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Darius11 12]

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True Americans don't believe in killing others for different viewpoints.

Wow I guess all the people who fought in WWII the revolutionary war were not True Americans, So your saying that all true Americans are pacifists?

Hmmmmmm. I’ll just let that sit and see if any sparks start the fire of thought.

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Well, I'm using your actions as well as that of Ahmadinejad and his government.

So you’re using my actions? Which actions?

It’s kind of odd that you’re using me and the president of the Iran. Were nothing a like. I love sex before marriage, beer, and jumping out of air plans when I can. I don’t think were in to the same things, but what do I know its much easier to generalize and be wrong then to take the time to understand something or someone.

Its painful that you don’t get it it truly is. God forbid you learn something that does not agree with your foundation of beliefs, Then just think you might have to think and actually form new ideas. Way too hard just keep spewing the same irrational illogical bull shit.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[kallend 2,027]

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From Heritage

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Nice IMPARTIAL source there, Rush. Maybe I'll start quoting Huffington at you in exchange.

It's an OPINION piece.

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So your “facts” as you like to call them may be technically be rooted in some truth, ...

Indeed they are. CRA loans have a low default rate and cannot be blamed for the meltdown. Wall Street greed caused the meltdown. Unpalatable as that may be to Heritage and to you, that IS the way it is.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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From Heritage

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Nice IMPARTIAL source there, Rush. Maybe I'll start quoting Huffington at you in exchange.

It's an OPINION piece.

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So your “facts” as you like to call them may be technically be rooted in some truth, ...

Indeed they are. CRA loans have a low default rate and cannot be blamed for the meltdown. Wall Street greed caused the meltdown. Unpalatable as that may be to Heritage and to you, that IS the way it is.

Because YOU say so?????

Now THAT is damned funny

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,027]

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From Heritage

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Nice IMPARTIAL source there, Rush. Maybe I'll start quoting Huffington at you in exchange.

It's an OPINION piece.

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So your “facts” as you like to call them may be technically be rooted in some truth, ...

Indeed they are. CRA loans have a low default rate and cannot be blamed for the meltdown. Wall Street greed caused the meltdown. Unpalatable as that may be to Heritage and to you, that IS the way it is.

Because YOU say so?????

Now THAT is damned funny

You already admitted the truth of my claim.



www.businessweek.com/investing/insights/blog/archives/2008/09/community_reinv.html

www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/11/defending_cra.html

seekingalpha.com/article/71775-larry-kudlow-is-dead-wrong-cra-didn-t-start-the-meltdown

“CRA was not the cause of the crisis,” John Dugan, Comptroller of the Currency (a Bush appointee).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Wall Street greed caused the meltdown.

No America's collective greed caused the meltdown.

Wall Street did it's part coming up with insane lending practices that were doomed to fail and the general public did their part not educating themselves on what they were getting into and taking on on more debt than they could handle.

It was a collective partnership.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,991]

>I mean do I have to spend hours trying to explain how the economy
>was effected, how people who are willing to work, and have skills to offer
>have suffered.

OK. So now you're saying that you don't care about the bonuses, it's the effect they had on the economy. That seems to imply that you expect Wall Street to 'take care' of you to some degree, that your happiness is related to how good a job they do. If they do a poor job - if they are greedy, shortsighted etc - then you could suffer indirectly, and thus they are "fucking" you.

I understand that sort of thinking, but I disagree with it. "Wall Street" is just a bunch of people doing their jobs. Some do them well, some do them poorly. Some are smart, some are stupid. I've made a lot of money off them over the years, which is a good thing for me. But I don't credit that to someone helping me out, I credit that to me for knowing what to invest in (and what not to invest in.) Likewise, when I lost a lot of money over the past year, I didn't think they were screwing me - I thought that I had foolishly remained in a market that showed all the signs of heading downwards. (I did pull a bunch out, but not nearly enough as it turned out.)

You might feel the same way about Microsoft if you invested all your money in them. They could make a bad decision and "fuck" you; your stock would decline in value, and you might lose your house. On the other hand, you could think they were all a bunch of wankers, sure to lose money, and thus you might choose to go short on Microsoft. They might then "fuck" you by making GOOD decisions; you might lose your house because they did a good job, and thus helped their stock price rise (losing you money.)

In other words, you could see yourself getting fucked by two opposite actions they might take, depending on _your_ decisions. That, to me, means it is your responsibility to make good decisions, not theirs.

[Darius11 12]

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Serious
why do YOU feel you are the one, the only one, with a valid point?

I am not saying I am the only on with a valid point. But when I say that the economy is fucked or many people have been fucked in the last two years I expect most of you to know what I am talking about.

It gets very frustrating when people seem to focus on picking you a part instead of contributing.

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I know the economy was affected, but I dont feel your view point is correct at all.

My viewpoint is coming from frustration.

I try to put my self in the shoes of a guy who is a worker (someone willing to work not lazy), and skilled.

Now believe it or not there were a lot of people effected who didn’t buy expensive homes, who didn’t but a big TV on a credit card. Basically a lot of people who really had nothing to do with any of this were effected.

It is surprising for me that someone with a family and kids who sees this and at the same time cant feed their kids has not lost their fucking mind when they hear about what’s happening with these bonuses.

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So, be mad if you need to be. But be mad at the right org., person, party and then we may have a shot at really stopping this from happening again

I am mad but i don;t think the banks are the wrong poeple to be mad at i think there are more then just the banks but they are sure at fault as well.


IMO the system is fucked, and the only way to fix it is break the system make a new one.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain