Gawain 0 #51 January 19, 2010 QuoteQuoteWhere in the Constitution does it say, that as a circumstance of being a citizen, or legal resident, you must buy specific service, or be treated differently for taxation (and presumably representation), unless you're a part of a collective bargaining agreement, which exempts such circumstance? Perhaps you should read up on the powers of Congress under the Constitution, particularly the general welfare clause of Article 1, §8 Let us examine that: QuoteSection 8 - Powers of Congress The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To borrow money on the credit of the United States; To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States; To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; To establish Post Offices and Post Roads; To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court; To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations; To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; To provide and maintain a Navy; To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces; To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof. Now, that we've established that this taxation is not equal under the Constitution (not to mention there is no reference to a mandate for purchase of a specific service)...let us examine Section 9: QuoteSection 9 - Limits on Congress The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person. The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed. (No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.) No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State. No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another. No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time. No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State. Under the current drug dealing, it is clear that Florida and Nebraska are getting a disproportionate shake from the rest of the country. Quote and Amendment 16. Indeed: QuoteAmendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified. Ratified 2/3/1913. Note History The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. I see where you're going with this, but to impose a lack of spending on a service as income is clearly a flawed logic. QuoteQuoteThen, take the beginning of the second paragraph of the Declaration...that little part about all men being equal. As I hope you are aware, the Declaration of Independence is not a document of law under our present government. In fact, it is not a written law, but these "truths are self-evident". These rights are given by "their Creator" with "unalienable Rights". These are not rights with which anyone can remove by legislation, it is too bad there are so many that are willing to give it up under a false pretense.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #52 January 19, 2010 Quote QuoteThe Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; QuoteAmendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified. Ratified 2/3/1913. Note History The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. I see where you're going with this, but to impose a lack of spending on a service as income is clearly a flawed logic. I highlighted the pertinent parts for you so you might see the unflawed logic. QuoteQuoteAs I hope you are aware, the Declaration of Independence is not a document of law under our present government. In fact, it is not a written law, but these "truths are self-evident". These rights are given by "their Creator" with "unalienable Rights". The founding fathers thought so much of those "unalienable" rights that they saw fit to allow slavery and consider slaves to be equal to three-fifths of a free man. The DoI was a "Fuck You!" to the king of England.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #53 January 19, 2010 Perhaps then there is a disconnect between the message that you sent (which is that unions should not have to worry about renegotiating commective bargaining agreements because employers may get by with not having to pay for health insurance) and the message that you intended to send (which would have to be to the effect that unions should be no different from other employees whose employers cover their health benefits). My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #54 January 19, 2010 QuotePerhaps then there is a disconnect between the message that you sent (which is that unions should not have to worry about renegotiating commective bargaining agreements because employers may get by with not having to pay for health insurance) and the message that you intended to send (which would have to be to the effect that unions should be no different from other employees whose employers cover their health benefits). Judging by your stated interpretation, I'm confident that the problem is reading comprehension.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #55 January 19, 2010 You failed to highlight this small few word line in your reply Here, I will help you Quote...but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #56 January 19, 2010 Quote The founding fathers thought so much of those "unalienable" rights that they saw fit to allow slavery and consider slaves to be equal to three-fifths of a free man. A different point of view on that topic. And I think you need to review the thoughts of the founding fathers on slavery. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #57 January 19, 2010 QuoteQuote QuoteThe Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; QuoteAmendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified. Ratified 2/3/1913. Note History The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. I see where you're going with this, but to impose a lack of spending on a service as income is clearly a flawed logic. I highlighted the pertinent parts for you so you might see the unflawed logic. Fixed that for you - while that *might* be a valid argument for the legitimacy of the penalty tax, it is not a justification for the mandate itself.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #58 January 20, 2010 QuoteYou failed to highlight this small few word line in your reply Here, I will help you Quote...but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; Are you suggesting that Congress is considering legislation for less than all fifty states? Are you saying that the legislation treats various states significantly different from one another?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #59 January 20, 2010 QuoteAnd I think you need to review the thoughts of the founding fathers on slavery. You are aware that the founding father protected slavery in the Constitution, right?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #60 January 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote QuoteThe Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; QuoteAmendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified. Ratified 2/3/1913. Note History The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. I see where you're going with this, but to impose a lack of spending on a service as income is clearly a flawed logic. I highlighted the pertinent parts for you so you might see the unflawed logic. while that *might* be a valid argument for the legitimacy of the penalty tax, it is not a justification for the mandate itself. If you look back, you'll see that I was responding to a post about the legitimacy of the penalty tax.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #61 January 20, 2010 QuoteAre you suggesting that Congress is considering legislation for less than all fifty states? Are you saying that the legislation treats various states significantly different from one another? Did you not read the rest of the thread, where the "Louisiana Purchase", "Cornhusker Kickback" and others were discussed? I'd say that's 'treating various states significantly different from one another".Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #62 January 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote QuoteThe Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; QuoteAmendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified. Ratified 2/3/1913. Note History The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. I see where you're going with this, but to impose a lack of spending on a service as income is clearly a flawed logic. I highlighted the pertinent parts for you so you might see the unflawed logic. while that *might* be a valid argument for the legitimacy of the penalty tax, it is not a justification for the mandate itself. If you look back, you'll see that I was responding to a post about the legitimacy of the penalty tax. Unless I severely misinterpreted his posts, that wasn't what he was talking about.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #63 January 20, 2010 QuoteUnless I severely misinterpreted his posts … That would be a fair explanation.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #64 January 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteUnless I severely misinterpreted his posts … That would be a fair explanation. Except for the fact that he was talking about 'services' while you went straight to taxes, I would agree. Given that, it appears that the misinterpretation was yours.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #65 January 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteAnd I think you need to review the thoughts of the founding fathers on slavery. You are aware that the founding father protected slavery in the Constitution, right? I'm aware of what's written in the Constitution. I'm also aware that some of the things that made it into the constitution the founding fathers didn't always agree about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #66 January 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteYou failed to highlight this small few word line in your reply Here, I will help you Quote...but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; Are you suggesting that Congress is considering legislation for less than all fifty states? Are you saying that the legislation treats various states significantly different from one another? Nice twist but it state through out the United States. Not through out the states. But, to your point, YES, it does"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #67 January 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteAnd I think you need to review the thoughts of the founding fathers on slavery. You are aware that the founding father protected slavery in the Constitution, right? And are you aware that this same document was brilliantly written (on purpose) to correct this ?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #68 January 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteUnless I severely misinterpreted his posts … That would be a fair explanation. Except for the fact that he was talking about 'services' while you went straight to taxes, I would agree. Given that, it appears that the misinterpretation was yours. Wrong again, sir. He claimed that the legislation "fully burned the Constitution to ashes," which speaks to the legitimacy, not the justification.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #69 January 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd I think you need to review the thoughts of the founding fathers on slavery. You are aware that the founding father protected slavery in the Constitution, right? And are you aware that this same document was brilliantly written (on purpose) to correct this ? No, it didn't, at least not without being amended. It actually protected the importation of slaves from Congressional prohibition and Constitutional amendments prior to 1808.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #70 January 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteUnless I severely misinterpreted his posts … That would be a fair explanation. Except for the fact that he was talking about 'services' while you went straight to taxes, I would agree. Given that, it appears that the misinterpretation was yours. Wrong again, sir. He claimed that the legislation "fully burned the Constitution to ashes," which speaks to the legitimacy, not the justification. The mandate IS illegitimate. The disproportionate treatment of the various states is illegitimate, and the penalty tax, being based on a false pretense, *may* be illegitimate as well.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #71 January 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAnd I think you need to review the thoughts of the founding fathers on slavery. You are aware that the founding father protected slavery in the Constitution, right? And are you aware that this same document was brilliantly written (on purpose) to correct this ? No, it didn't, at least not without being amended. It actually protected the importation of slaves from Congressional prohibition and Constitutional amendments prior to 1808. If you care to studya little, you will find that is was written the way it was because it would not get ratified if it was not. The amendment process was set in motion relatively quickly and the amendment was made. It was brilliantly done"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #72 January 20, 2010 QuoteThe mandate IS illegitimate. It doesn't appear to be so by any explanations made in this thread.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #73 January 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteThe mandate IS illegitimate. It doesn't appear to be so by any explanations made in this thread. Seeing as you think the GW clause allows it, your opinion is unsurprising.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #74 January 20, 2010 Quote The amendment process was set in motion relatively quickly and the amendment was made. If waiting until after the Civil War is "relatively quickly," then yes, it was set into motion relatively quickly. I think that's pretty slow, personally.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #75 January 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteYou failed to highlight this small few word line in your reply Here, I will help you Quote...but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; Are you suggesting that Congress is considering legislation for less than all fifty states? Are you saying that the legislation treats various states significantly different from one another? You're kidding right? Hello...Nebraska...Florida...LMAO...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
