Jesus Rifles

[RonD1120 62]

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"I am the way, the truth, and the life..."

So in other words, the terrorists won't quit killing until they accept Jesus as their one true god, i.e. they all have to convert from Islam to Christianity? Only then will we have peace?

[DanG 1]

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So in keeping with the topic of this thread, is there anyone here who REALLY has/sees a problem with this weapons optics issue?

Um, yeah. And I thought I had already been quite clear about why.

- Dan G

[rushmc 23]

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So in keeping with the topic of this thread, is there anyone here who REALLY has/sees a problem with this weapons optics issue?

Not me personally. But I do understand how it would piss off some radical Muslim group and give them one more thing to bitch about, which, for me is enough to get rid of it.

Hmm, something we agree on

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JohnRich 4]

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So in other words, the terrorists won't quit killing until they accept Jesus as their one true god, i.e. they all have to convert from Islam to Christianity? Only then will we have peace?

Isn't it a bit presumptuous of you to believe that your god is automatically "the truth" - the one and only god?

What do you say to all the billions of people who worship other gods in other religions?

My God is your God. Your God is your God. Do you think your God loves? I dont know, thats your relationship with your God... and others are the same. A mans (or womans) God is recognized by through that man. Jesus says "A tree is recognized by its fruit"

The truth is grace and grace is the truth. Instead of asking what truth is, why not ask what grace is? The bible does not say that only Christians will find heaven, but it does say that salvation is only found in Christ. Jesus is spirit. He is the very spirit of life that inhabits all living things... some hear his voice, others do not. But grace nonetheless is real, and it is only found in faith... not in a book. If everyone was filled with grace, you would not ask this question.. because it wouldnt matter.

Its like asking someone why they love you... the answer is not going to change the truth of that love.

Now you're babbling incoherently, and you haven't answered the question.

[JohnRich 4]

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So what is the problem with putting alphanumeric references to bible verses on weapons optics?

We're in an IO war. IO wars can be won or lost on seemingly insignificant events.

Our soldiers wear a U.S. flag patch on the shoulder of their uniforms.
Do you think they should be ordered to remove those flags?
After all, we have to be politically correct so that we don't piss-off the enemy, right?

In fact, skydivers here in Texas often make a 20-way formation in the shape of a star, which looks very much like a Jewish star, except that it has only five points instead of six. Maybe we should quit building these formations, for fear of pissing off muslims and causing them to commit terrorist acts. Hmmm...

What does it say about some followers of the religion of Islam if they can be moved to commit mass murder of innocent people, simply by seeing references to christian bible verses? If they're that whacko, intolerant and prone to violence, do people really think that they'll become peaceful if we just remove the references?

[DanG 1]

You're reaching.

Really far.

Flags identify the country, not the religion. The US is not a Christian nation, no matter how badly Ron wants to believe it is.

You Texans can make whatever the fuck formations you want. You don't work for the US government when you're doing it. However, if the Golden Knights wanted to start making big formations over Kabul in the shape of Jesus on the cross, I would have a problem with that (although it would be freaking cool).

Instead of looking for reasons that the inscriptions should be removed, how about you (or anyone else) provide one good reason why they should have been there in the first place?

"Jesus loves the little children," is not a good reason.

- Dan G

[LouDiamond 1]

This is mountain over mole hill shit IMO. So this completely undermines and brings down our campaign plan? Not buying it. I'll say it again, the ONLY reason we are seeing negative reaction to it within the higher ranks in the military is due to the PC/political BS game that has to be played and to the hype generated by the media.

Of all the things that can be attributed to aiding the Radical fundamental Islamic in their recruiting, this one is pretty low on the totem pole. Swarms of otherwise peaceful Islamic people are not going to wake up and join the fight over this. Yes , it is a propaganda tool for them but pretty much everything has been a propaganda tool for them at some point. Our simply not being Muslims is one of them. If this hadn't been sensationalized by the media and made into a big deal, the military could have dealt with the problem and moved on.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DanG 1]

I never said it was a big deal. I don't think anyone thinks that this one thing will, "completely undermine and bring down our campaign plan."

But why keep piling molehills on top of one another for no reason at all?

Shooting yourself in the foot probably won't kill you. So why do we recommend people not to shoot themselves in the foot?

- Dan G

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Now you're babbling incoherently, and you haven't answered the question

Do you really think Im suprised to hear that?

Ive answered your question, you just didnt hear anything. Are you the type of person who blames God for all the suffering in the world... who believes that God should take better care of his creation... while at the same time never giving thanks for anything good in your life?

Matthew 11-""To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:
'We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge
and you did not mourn.' 18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

If you understand this, then you will understand what I am telling you. If not...

"We didn't start the fire"

[Andy9o8 2]

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Now you're babbling incoherently, and you haven't answered the question

Do you really think Im suprised to hear that?

Just so you know where I'm coming from: I am a professional communicator. If I fail to communicate clearly, concisely and unambiguously, then I've failed to communicate effectively; and in my line of work, that means I've screwed the pooch. Now then:

I've read, and re-read, John's questions and your responses several times now, trying to parse each pretty carefully. And although, if I mentally squint really hard, I can see (though not on the first reading) how your "answer" may technically be "responsive" to his questions, I have to tell you, with all due respect, that your manner of communication is so obscure, indirect and rambling that just about anyone who does not regularly communicate in theological scripture-speak will, quite reasonably, view it as incoherent babble. That's what I thought about it when I read it; John just said it first.

So right there you've failed to communicate. You then compound the first failing with a second one (paraphrasing): "It's right there for you to see and hear; you just need to open your eyes and ears, etc., etc." The latter failing is, quite frankly, insulting to the addressees' intelligence. I see a lot of devout evangelical/born-again - type Christians communicate that way, and I have to tell you that it's pretty off-putting to a lot of very bright, reasonable-minded people. And if your audience is turned off by your manner of address, how can that possibly further a core goal of an evangelical mission?

Ah, but now I'm not being concise. So I will try now: If you want to make your point, even one of faith and theology, cut the shit and speak clearly and directly. It can be done.

[maadmax 0]

But why keep piling molehills on top of one another for no reason at all?

Shooting yourself in the foot probably won't kill you. So why do we recommend people not to shoot themselves in the foot?

[quade 4]

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The only people who seem to have an issue with it are the political correct , self righteous atheists.

I don't think you have a clue as to what you're actually talking about. You might want to read up on statements made by the US military.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[maadmax 0]

I don't think you have a clue as to what you're actually talking about. You might want to read up on statements made by the US military.

[quade 4]

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I don't think you have a clue as to what you're actually talking about. You might want to read up on statements made by the US military.

But, but, I do have a clue, and I also agree with LouDiamond. I personally would not put Bible verses on gun sights if I were producing them, but worrying about offending moslems is a bit much.

...

[DanG 1]

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The only people who seem to have an issue with it are the political correct , self righteous atheists.

Or people who really want to succeed in Afghanistan and see no reason why we should make it any harder than it already is. But if you prefer to see the world through your own self-righteous, indignant glasses, go ahead.

- Dan G

[maadmax 0]

Then why did you make a statement regarding atheists? That's not what this is about at all.

[RonD1120 62]

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Just so you know where I'm coming from: I am a professional communicator. If I fail to communicate clearly, concisely and unambiguously, then I've failed to communicate effectively; and in my line of work, that means I've screwed the pooch. Now then:

I've read, and re-read, John's questions and your responses several times now, trying to parse each pretty carefully. And although, if I mentally squint really hard, I can see (though not on the first reading) how your "answer" may technically be "responsive" to his questions, I have to tell you, with all due respect, that your manner of communication is so obscure, indirect and rambling that just about anyone who does not regularly communicate in theological scripture-speak will, quite reasonably, view it as incoherent babble. That's what I thought about it when I read it; John just said it first.

So right there you've failed to communicate. You then compound the first failing with a second one (paraphrasing): "It's right there for you to see and hear; you just need to open your eyes and ears, etc., etc." The latter failing is, quite frankly, insulting to the addressees' intelligence. I see a lot of devout evangelical/born-again - type Christians communicate that way, and I have to tell you that it's pretty off-putting to a lot of very bright, reasonable-minded people. And if your audience is turned off by your manner of address, how can that possibly further a core goal of an evangelical mission?

Ah, but now I'm not being concise. So I will try now: If you want to make your point, even one of faith and theology, cut the shit and speak clearly and directly. It can be done.

Thank you for that explanation. rynodigsmusic et.al., and I share, what I think is the same affliction. Namely, our pastors and teachers emphasize Scripture quoting. The concept is that the Holy Spirit will clarify the meaning in the mind of those who are ready to receive. In this forum we have to get better at what we are trying to explain.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[JohnRich 4]

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Flags identify the country, not the religion. The US is not a Christian nation.

Do you think the muslims believe that? I think they associate christiantity with the U.S., and therefore the U.S. flag represents christianity. Just as they associate judaism with the nation of Israel.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Flags identify the country, not the religion. The US is not a Christian nation.

Do you think the muslims believe that? I think they associate christianity with the U.S., and therefore the U.S. flag represents christianity. Just as they associate judaism with the nation of Israel.

Agreed. Google the phrase, "America is a Christian nation" and you'll get over 6 million hits.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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So in other words, the terrorists won't quit killing until they accept Jesus as their one true god, i.e. they all have to convert from Islam to Christianity? Only then will we have peace?

Nobody will quit killing until Jesus is manifested on the earth.

Isn't it a bit presumptuous of you to believe that your god is automatically "the truth" - the one and only god?

So, do you say that about other beliefs as well? What do you believe? Maybe we can hang your beliefs out for critisism as well?

What do you say to all the billions of people who worship other gods in other religions?

That is thier God. My faith tells me that God is in control of everything. If their God is a God of peace, love, harmony, freindship, goodness, then what do they have against Jesus Christ? I have asked before, and Ill ask again... Show me a lesson of good from another religion that is not found in the Gospel.

Ah, but now I'm not being concise. So I will try now: If you want to make your point, even one of faith and theology, cut the shit and speak clearly and directly. It can be done.

You may be a professional communicator, but does that mean you understand what everyone is telling you? I seriously doubt it. You may want to be an objective/non-biased person... but your post leads me to believe otherwise... not only that, I dont even know if its possible to be completely objective.

He is asking questions that people have been looking for answers to for centuries. The Gospel carries the secrets of life. The only way to understand them is to have them revealed from inside your heart. You will not be able to "communicate" your way into the truth (respectfully). If you want life to the fullest, you have to humble yourself and ask for it. There is no backdoor.

Listen. Few people understood what Jesus was saying. Im sure to most he did sound like a "babbling idiot". He spoke in parables for a reason. If you have read a Gospel, which Im assuming you have, then you would understand the poetic revelations that so many have. Even some of the most intelligent people in the history of our world could not understand what he was/is saying.

As for John, the man whom you defend. Not once did I call him a babbler, but you accuse me of intentionally and almost malicioulsy implying that his intelligence is inferior to mine? Come on man. I have tried to answer his question to the best of my ability. But, if I did offend him, let me say it openly that I apologize, and if I offend you then I apologize. But I know no other way to respond to some of the things you guys ask me.

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Isn't it a bit presumptuous of you to believe that your god is automatically "the truth" - the one and only god?

Presumptious or not, it is what I believe. There is only one God, and he is the creator of all things made. That is what was implied, not insult. But seriously man, no worries, no hard feelings... and Ill tell you the same thing, if you dont understand, then you dont understand. If you feel that is an attack on your intelligence, then that is coming from your own mind, not mine.

"We didn't start the fire"

[quade 4]

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There is only one God, and he is the creator of all things made.

Who made God?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 2]

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Listen.

I am. But it has to be mutual. I've made my point (none of which was personal), and I respectfully stand by my post.

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As for John ... you accuse me of intentionally and almost malicioulsy implying that his intelligence is inferior to mine?

No, I don't think it was intentional, and certainly not malicious. People are sometimes unintentionally condescending without intending to give offense, but they do. I admit I do that sometimes. I think that's what occurred.

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Come on man. I have tried to answer his question to the best of my ability. But, if I did offend him, let me say it openly that I apologize, ...

Thanks. We take you at your word.

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But I know no other way to respond to some of the things you guys ask me.

Effective communication, like many other things, is not a final goal; it is a life's journey. Take the next steps. The trip is well worthwhile.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I'm not baiting you or anyone else, it was a pseudo rhetorical question in a way. But lets follow this........

If you believe in God and want to spread his word it makes sense to do it in a way that is tied into your life. I can only assume that the original owner of Trijicon was a devout man and attempted to spread the word of God by placing the alphanumeric references to bible verses on the fruits of his labor. Seeing how it was done in a very low profile way and is only now coming to light, has he not contributed and spread the word?

Yes, in an odd sort of way.



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So in keeping with the topic of this thread, is there anyone here who REALLY has/sees a problem with this weapons optics issue?

Yes. I don't see anything that the company has done wrong. However as a matter of policy the military should inform them that all sights for delivery henceforth will not have them or any other religious markings. Furthermore I think the military needs to stop distributing the ones with the inscriptions in places like Iraq where their presence has the potential to detrimentally impact US foreign policy goals.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Who made God?

Creation.

"We didn't start the fire"

[quade 4]

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Who made God?

Creation.

And where does it say that?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver