Freedom OF religion means freedom FROM religion

[quade 4]

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But, but, Quade! Look what were teaching them?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1038686/

Yes. Some people can't actually tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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But, but, Quade! Look what were teaching them?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1038686/

Yes. Some people can't actually tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

Are you talking about the people watching the movie or the Christians?

[quade 4]

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But, but, Quade! Look what were teaching them?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1038686/

Yes. Some people can't actually tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

Are you talking about the people watching the movie or the Christians?

Take your pick!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Yes. Some people can't actually tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

Your right. And some cant tell the difference between life and death either. So much room for wonder stolen by the "reality" that has been passed down to us. Life is for dreaming, or its not. But I would hardly begin to imply that neither the non-dreamer nor the dreamer have not had a purposeful impact in the worlds' perceived realities.

That is, there is room for the innocent child dreamer and the one who sheds his innocence on this earth. We can learn alot from a child can we not? I wonder what "reality" they live in? Probably closer to the reality that is perceived as fantasy to those living in the "real reality" I presume.

Nevertheless, what is it that makes something real? I would like to hear some opinions on that.

"We didn't start the fire"

[RonD1120 62]

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Yes. Some people can't actually tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

Your right. And some cant tell the difference between life and death either. So much room for wonder stolen by the "reality" that has been passed down to us. Life is for dreaming, or its not. But I would hardly begin to imply that neither the non-dreamer nor the dreamer have not had a purposeful impact in the worlds' perceived realities.

That is, there is room for the innocent child dreamer and the one who sheds his innocence on this earth. We can learn alot from a child can we not? I wonder what "reality" they live in? Probably closer to the reality that is perceived as fantasy to those living in the "real reality" I presume.

Nevertheless, what is it that makes something real? I would like to hear some opinions on that.

I fall back on an Eastern spiritual concept of "maya" or the illusion of reality. Reality like beauty exists in the mind of the beholder. When our mental illusions overlap we can easily discuss shared characteristics or concepts. When they do not, we can say the other person's perspective makes no sense or we can take a pejorative view and say it is nonsense.

A got ahead of myself, first we must have an understanding of the difference between feelings, beliefs and fantasies. Feelings are spontaneous and emotional, neither good or bad, right or wrong. Feelings are what they are.

Beliefs are our values, learned and modified over the span of years lived. Social mores, folkways, traditions, customs, etc. play a part in their formation along with experience.

Fantasies are any mental activity. They are not necessarily good or bad but can only be truly evaluated by observing the behavior or action produced from acting on the fantasy.

For the purposes of this posting, fantasy and illusion are synonymous.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[quade 4]

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Reality like beauty exists in the mind of the beholder.

Hogwash. Objective reality exists with or without the "mind of the beholder".

Your personal SUBJECTIVE PERCEPTION of reality may exist in the "mind of the beholder" (you), but that doesn't mean squat about how reality is perceived by anyone else or what reality actually is.

If it did, it would mean that whatever YOU believe is real and whatever I believe is real is real . . . that's demonstrably incorrect.

If one person believes Jesus is the physical manifestation and actual "Son of God" and another doesn't, there's no possible way they can both be right.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[danornan 79]

Interesting.... trying to use logic and religion in the same paragraph!

By the way, ALL religions are cults. It's just a matter of perspective.

Dano

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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By the way, ALL religions are cults. It's just a matter of perspective.

If all religions are cults, then what do you use as the standard for any belief? Your statement might as well say that belief in anything is a cult. Anymore nowadays, the more I read, the more I am seeing that Atheism seems to be an accepted term for anti-Christian. If I am wrong or out of line here, then Im sorry, but thats been my observation so far... with very little exceptions.

"We didn't start the fire"

[quade 4]

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Anymore nowadays, the more I read, the more I am seeing that Atheism seems to be an accepted term for anti-Christian.

No. Don't get a persecution complex. "They" aren't out to get "you". Atheists simply don't believe there is a god. While it's true that also includes the "Christian" god, it's equally true for every other god as well.

While there is a very tiny vocal minority that would like to see religion removed from government, most don't actually care and are more than happy for you to believe in whatever you'd like; just don't force it on them.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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If all religions are cults, then what do you use as the standard for any belief? Your statement might as well say that belief in anything is a cult. Anymore nowadays, the more I read, the more I am seeing that Atheism seems to be an accepted term for anti-Christian. If I am wrong or out of line here, then Im sorry, but thats been my observation so far... with very little exceptions.

You are wrong. Atheism is not necessarily anti anything. I, on the other hand am anti-theist and yes that does encompass my anti-Christian beliefs. If you believe that all atheists are anti-Christian that puts you in the same boat that thinks all Christians kidnap children in Haiti (or all Muslims are terrorists).

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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If it did, it would mean that whatever YOU believe is real and whatever I believe is real is real . . . that's demonstrably incorrect.

I dont understand why that would be incorrect? I think I understand your point, but your point seems to be making the same point I made earlier. If im reading it right anyway.

The point is that normally a child fantasizes a great deal and the average adult pretty much stops fantasizing like a child at some point and gets swallowed up by the "realities" in the world. The child doesnt perceive the reality the adult does, and it seems visa versa would be a fair statement. But, that doesnt mean that what the child percieves as real and what the adult percieves as real are demonstrably incorrect... just different.

Different realities, different perceptions, different paths... but, one major similarity... life. I continue to ask, what should be a fairly easy question for scientists, seeing as it is so prevalent... what is life? And still no one knows. With all they do know, (especially with how sure many of them are that they know without doubt that God is not even a possibility) they really dont know anything about life. Like what is its origin, what is its purpose in the universe...ect...

The whole time you answer these questions on the rock solid premise that you are right about God not being even a possibility, while at the same time never coming close to admitting that you could be wrong. Now right or wrong does not matter to me at all, as far as the origin of life goes, but as far as humbleness is concerned, something we can all benefit from, it obviously seems to have a pretty big impact on spreading the outright lie that God is not even a possibility.

So again, I ask, what do you think makes something real?

"We didn't start the fire"

[danornan 79]

Religion is simply a strong belief. There is no logic behind it, so what is the difference between an organized religion and a cult? -0-

Back to the logic and religion. It doesn't work. And I'm not anti anything. I'm very neutral. YOU have a complex!

Dano

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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you are wrong. Atheism is not necessarily anti anything. I, on the other hand am anti-theist and yes that does encompass my anti-Christian beliefs. If you believe that all atheists are anti-Christian that puts you in the same boat that thinks all Christians kidnap children in Haiti (or all Muslims are terrorists).

I gotta say, I expected a little more out of you, respectively. Maybe you should go back and re-read my post for key words. I have now been in these forums long enough to know when im being vibed. You can defend atheism all you like, but the tone of many of the posts I have read on these forums rings out like a loud anti Christian bell.

if you want to present your A-theist beliefs more objectively, you might want to work on the tone of your words a little. If I am given the time, I may compile a stream of posts that may re-ignite the tone I am speaking of and you can tell me if im wrong again. Hell, just go back and read post one on this thread... there's just a little of what I am talking about.

"We didn't start the fire"

[quade 4]

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The whole time you answer these questions on the rock solid premise that you are right about God not being even a possibility, while at the same time never coming close to admitting that you could be wrong.

Oh? I'll admit I don't believe in god, but if you can show me some actual proof, I'm open to it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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And I'm not anti anything. I'm very neutral. YOU have a complex!

Are you kidding? Am I the one who claims to be nuetral while at the same time saying things like "All religions are cults" and "YOU have a complex", and "there is no logic behind what you believe (paraphrasing)"

You'll get no argument from me about organized religion, unless you are calling the ministry of the Holy Spirit an organized religion? Have you read a Gospel?

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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h? I'll admit I don't believe in god, but if you can show me some actual proof, I'm open to it.

I can show you no proof, so I guess your really not open to it after all. how does anyone show proof of faith? Even if they did things that would prove they believed in something, it still wouldnt provide proof to someone who needs proof to believe in anything.

"We didn't start the fire"

[pilotsR4pimps 0]

it's all silly. all of it. all based on ancient myth and superstition. isn't even worth the argument. people take the perceptual delusion way too seriously...... it needs to all go away if we are to advance as a species instead of being stagnant... remember, fairy tales build churches

[danornan 79]

Yes....... You can't be neutral if you have a belief! Logic says you can't use a book written by many as a reference.

Dano

[billvon 2,998]

>Yes....... You can't be neutral if you have a belief!

Looks like you have some pretty strong beliefs as well.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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t's all silly. all of it. all based on ancient myth and superstition. isn't even worth the argument. people take the perceptual delusion way too seriously...... it needs to all go away if we are to advance as a species instead of being stagnant... remember, fairy tales build churches

Ill be honest with you, as evil as mankind is, I would never want to live in a world where God is not only ignored, he is actually hated. You are proving my earlier statement to be more true than not. Words such as yours are the spirit of the anti Christ... you may want to keep that in mind when the shit really starts to hit the fan.

"We didn't start the fire"

[Laszloimage 0]

Atheism is anti-religion which of course includes Christianity as well.
The real difference between Atheism and any other religion is not accepting things based on “BELIEF”. Atheists accept provable facts. They not against religion because they are evil or bad, but rather because they just don’t want to accept “beliefs” without any evidence.
The problem with religion is (any religion) it accepts beliefs as solid fact.
Just a few for example:
-The inquisition used to prosecute and execute scientist (mostly burn them at the stake) because they came up with the evidence the Earth isn’t flat and it’s not even in the center of the Universe. The church was holding onto their BELIEF (which of course had no realistic base at all) so strongly they were killing anyone who tried to challenge it.

-Protestant Christians (even today they all read the exact same King James Bible) believed in witches. So based on their beliefs they burned a bunch of innocent people in NH,MA, and more places.

-911 hijackers had a nothing else but their faith (belief if you will) to make them carry out their terrible attack. They didn’t make their decision based on rational thinking or facts. They acted based on beliefs which was “implanted” into their head by their leader.

-Japanese kamikaze pilots had their beliefs too….

-Charles Darwin was condemned when he came up with the idea humans and prime apes evolved from a common ancestor. The Bible (which is based on faith and not facts) was saying otherwise. Now we know Darwin was right (Chimps and humans share 98% same DNA)

-If you ask a person on the street about skydiving they believe the odds tend towards to get killed rather than survive. They say it because of their belief based on bad information or lack of information. We both have to agree on that those “street people” (wuffos if you will ) belief is wrong. They just believe skydiving is way too crazy but they have no clue what so ever abut the sport. Try to get insurance for skydiving here in the US. The insurance agencies will deny writing up a decent policy based on belief not the true data about skydiving.

And the list never ends how much humanity (the smaller group of them with the doubt in faith) had to fight against nonsense beliefs in order to have accepted. Unfortunately this problem hasn’t gone away until this day. People with common sense and real facts have to go against those who have nothing else but beliefs without ant solid evidence. Frankly, it really scares me when elected politicians try to legislating law based on beliefs and their personal religious views.

Atheists don’t “believe” like members of any other religion. Atheist accept facts, they make conclusion after checking out a certain problem from all possible angles.

[danornan 79]

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Atheism is anti-religion which of course includes Christianity as well.
The real difference between Atheism and any other religion is not accepting things based on “BELIEF”. Atheists accept provable facts. They not against religion because they are evil or bad, but rather because they just don’t want to accept “beliefs” without any evidence.
The problem with religion is (any religion) it accepts beliefs as solid fact.
Just a few for example:
-The inquisition used to prosecute and execute scientist (mostly burn them at the stake) because they came up with the evidence the Earth isn’t flat and it’s not even in the center of the Universe. The church was holding onto their BELIEF (which of course had no realistic base at all) so strongly they were killing anyone who tried to challenge it.

-Protestant Christians (even today they all read the exact same King James Bible) believed in witches. So based on their beliefs they burned a bunch of innocent people.

-911 hijackers had a nothing else but their faith (belief if you will) to make them carry out their terrible attack. They didn’t make their decision based on rational thinking or facts. They acted based on beliefs which was “implanted” into their head by their leader.

-Japanese kamikaze pilots had their beliefs too….

-Charles Darwin was condemned when he came up with the idea humans and prime apes evolved from a common ancestor. The Bible (which is based on faith and not facts) was saying otherwise. Now we know Darwin was right (Chimps and humans share 98% same DNA)

-If you ask a person on the street about skydiving they believe the odds tend towards to get killed rather than survive. They say it because of their belief based on bad information or lack of information. We both have to agree on that those “street people” (wuffos if you will) belief is wrong. They just believe skydiving is way too crazy but they have no clue what so ever abut the sport. Try to get insurance for skydiving here in the US. The insurance agencies will deny writing up a decent policy based on belief not the true data about skydiving.

And the list never ends how much humanity (the smaller group of them with the doubt in faith) had to fight against nonsense beliefs in order to have accepted. Unfortunately this problem hasn’t gone away until this day. People with common sense and real facts have to go against those who have nothing else but beliefs without ant solid evidence. Frankly, it really scares me when elected politicians try to legislating law based on beliefs and their personal religious views.

Atheists don’t “believe” like members of any other religion. Atheist accept facts, they make conclusion after checking out a certain problem from all possible angles.

Laszlo, VERY WELL PUT.

Dano

[happythoughts 0]

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Anymore nowadays, the more I read, the more I am seeing that Atheism seems to be an accepted term for anti-Christian.

No. Don't get a persecution complex. "They" aren't out to get "you". Atheists simply don't believe there is a god. While it's true that also includes the "Christian" god, it's equally true for every other god as well.

While there is a very tiny vocal minority that would like to see religion removed from government, most don't actually care and are more than happy for you to believe in whatever you'd like; just don't force it on them.

I'm not "out to get the religionists". I'm trying to help them.
When people have mental illnesses, they can be given
medication to make their problems manageable until
the therapy works.

Religion is an emotional crutch that supplies simplistic
answers to complex questions. It's failing is that
it never actually supplies correct answers, so the sufferer
continues to live in fear.

To control its members, it uses their guilt, fear, and self-esteem issues.
It is a superficial crutch, but a damaging one.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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People with common sense and real facts have to go against those who have nothing else but beliefs without ant solid evidence. Frankly, it really scares me when elected politicians try to legislating law based on beliefs and their personal religious views.

This is the type of respectable post that beckons a reasonable discussion. Even though, I dont agree fully with what you said, there is little if any personal attack. I am not disputing that beliefs can be dangerous... at all. I am saying that they can be very beneficial, and contrary to popular atheistic belief, have been very beneficial in many ways.

For example, our faith at least gives you a foundation from which to cling to the atheistic belief (non-belief). Many become atheist because of the way others believe in God, so, for your sake, we seem to have some sort of purpose to your identity. Of course someone like you would know that there are actually good things that come from faith as well... but theres no need to go into that... however..

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People with common sense and real facts have to go against those who have nothing else but beliefs without ant solid evidence.

What exactly are we going against each other for? Legislation has nothing to do with my faith... it is ALL politics. Anyone who reads and understands the Gospel knows that Jesus pulls us out of the world, spiritually. This means that I do not get involved in your politics, it goes against what I believe entirely. Sorry if that is not the status quo, but I dont understand how anyone who follows Christ can get so involved in the politics of the world. This is something a brief glance into the Gospel can easily reveal. So, your facts are a little obscured there at least, respectively.

The question is that if you only accept facts, then how can you accept that God is not in your equation? Did you, scientifically and factually deduce that God is not real? More likely than not Atheists share a belief, they just dont call it that. Not only that, what makes you think that I dont believe in facts? Facts are based on truth, not the other way around. The fact is that just becasue you cant prove something, doesnt mean it isnt true. We have had this discussion before. Mathematics is a perfect example, as is physics, that the laws of both are based on truth. So, under everything you can prove lies truth. Curious to say the least if you ask me.

And I do understand what Atheist are supposed to be, and I know that not all atheist are anti Christian, but I still maintain there is an anti Christian tone to most atheist replys that I have been on the other end of. I did however, say there were a few exceptions.

"We didn't start the fire"

[maadmax 0]

Atheists don’t “believe” like members of any other religion. Atheist accept facts, they make conclusion after checking out a certain problem from all possible angles.