Freedom OF religion means freedom FROM religion

[jakee 1,490]

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It is funny to me that a little humble man, 2000 yrs ago, made such an uproar in the established world authorities that they considered him such an imposition, and threat, on their reign. He must have had quite a following for the Armies of Rome and the so-called Holy Jewish teachers of the law to want him crucified.

Absolutely! It's not as if they just went around crucifying any petty criminal. Oh, wait...

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Especially with how much wisdom life in general shows us over and over again. Survival alone shows us a great deal of wisdom. Not just knowledge, but the wisdom to adapt and survive.

Oh fuck me, here comes the wisdom again

Seriously dude, please look it up in a dictionary! Using a word in a way no other native english speaker uses it is a real bar on effective communication.

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The more I think about things, the more I wonder what lifes actual purpose is.

If you stop assuming that it has a purpose, the world will become much less confusing.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[quade 4]

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I believe there was/is something very special about Jesus... I dont think, even if I were an atheist, that I could completely overlook his impact on the earth and dismiss everything he stood for as easily as many of you seem to do.

And not every atheist would deny the man was a leader with a great message; much like Buddha. But that doesn't necessarily mean we deify or demonize him either.

It does mean we'll look at a number of the more fantastical, unprovable and in some cases weirdly coincidental things surrounding the overall story with a grain of salt and healthy dose of skepticism.

That doesn't negate the overall message of being good to one another.

However, some people over the last 2000ish years however used whatever good message he had and corrupted it for their own nefarious purposes. That's just a pile of poo I can't be involved with.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[okalb 104]

There are plenty of us atheists who believe in the possibility that a superior power could exist. I am humble enough to know that there is a lot we don't yet know or understand about the universe. As soon as someone can show me any legitimate evidence that god exists I would be more than happy to believe. Until then the existence of the christian god is just as real and just as believable as what the scientologists believe. Jesus Christ is no different to me than L Ron Hubbard. The only difference is that Christainity has been around longer and has convinced more people to believe. Give it another thousand years and who knows. Maybe we will see that L Ron was right. I find it funny when Christians refer to other "religions" as cults. Just because yours has been around longer and has more followers doesn't make it any more or less of a cult than any others. I guess it just means that they have better marketing.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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And not every atheist would deny the man was a leader with a great message; much like Buddha. But that doesn't necessarily mean we deify or demonize him either.

It does mean we'll look at a number of the more fantastical, unprovable and in some cases weirdly coincidental things surrounding the overall story with a grain of salt and healthy dose of skepticism.

That doesn't negate the overall message of being good to one another.

However, some people over the last 2000ish years however used whatever good message he had and corrupted it for their own nefarious purposes. That's just a pile of poo I can't be involved with.

Sometimes our denial involves us whether it is seen or not. Nevertheless, I like your post, but there are some things a little array. The message wasnt be good to one another, the message is love. There is a difference.

It does suck that the message gets abused, but I can understand why, and even how, and i just try to steer clear of those who claim to have understood it, but didnt. Branches of the main message provide warnings against hypocrisy, self-rigtheousness, conceit, spiritual theives, and the spirit of the anti Christ. And I dont need the bible to show me those warnings are not given in vain.

So the message may have been tampered with, abused ect... but the truth is manifesting on this earth quite clearly as it relates to the Gospel.

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It does mean we'll look at a number of the more fantastical, unprovable and in some cases weirdly coincidental things surrounding the overall story with a grain of salt and healthy dose of skepticism.

I gather your speaking of similarities between Jesus and Buddha? I dont think it is a coincidence that Jesus told his Apostles to stay out of the province of Asia. It is clear that God filled the Buddha with wisdom and even knew its desired application. Still, I have found nothing in lessons of goodness in Buddhism that are not found in the Gospel.

There is a difference in the fundamentals of both faiths. Buddha was enlightened to life, and Jesus is life. This is in no way an attack on Buddhism, just an observation of the difference in fundamentals of the two faiths.

"We didn't start the fire"

[Laszloimage 0]

"that a little humble man, 2000 yrs ago, made such an uproar in the established world "

In this case the winner is Buddha. He has just as many followers as Jesus except for 400-600years longer! Mohamed is the 3rd because he's around for a bit over 1,300 years only. The 4th is Judaism. It's around the longer than the othe mentioned 3 but they don't have the amount of people.

What made you to turn into an Evangelical Christian?
How come you’re NOT Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Gnostic Christian?
Did you ever study the Koran or all the Buddhist text written on Sanskrit as much as you did the Bible (and most likely the King James Version only)?
Everybody should study all existing religious text equally before they start preaching about the “truth”. How a rabbi can be sure about the truth of the Torahs without ever reading the theories of Confucius? How an Evangelical pastor can be 100% sure about his teaching when he only reads the King James Version of the Bible but never a page from the Koran? Why Iranians are Shiite Muslims and not Sunnis like the Saudis?

The answer is very simple: Everybody pretty much “born into” the society with an existing religion. They learn it from their surroundings. The other option is when an existing religion gets reformed by a new leader who’s charismatic enough to effect on large masses. For example: Jesus reformed Judaism (he still talked about the same God and the Old Testament is still about Jewish history). Martin Luther reformed Christianity because he didn’t agree with the Catholic Church just like many others, so a new branch of the religion was born.
But ultimately all “believers” are getting the basics from the environment they were born into. Jesus was a Jew until he wasn’t satisfied with Judaism (which was very corrupted by his time), Martin Luther was a Catholic until he bumped into some issues. But the reformers new ideas still grew from the old one.

The whole point of mine is no religious person ever believes in a certain faith because they are voluntarily select one from the many existing after studying them all. They become “true believers” because mostly everybody else is in their society. And even the few who start a new direction in faith roots back to the original what the person first was introduced.

Humans just like animals. We’re learning from our parents and others who surrounding us (which is most of the time right). Of course we’re capable to learn and understand lot more complex things than any other creature on Earth. Except we inherited some limitations through the evolutionary process; we tend to accept information just because it was said so. We’re going to accept anything from anyone who we trust. We don’t have the skepticism (the healthy amount) right away, we have to learn it! Not everybody starts “cross referencing”.
I should be a good Catholic because I was born into a Catholic family. But my father gave me an option (which raised some eye bras), he let me decide what faith I pick when I grew up. So I’ve never been baptized because in my early adult age I had my “doubts” already because I was “exposed” to other ideas than Catholicism.
But most people don’t have this type of “free choice”, they have to go with the tradition they were born into, and buy the time when they’re old enough to make choices their own they don’t know anything else but what they’ve been told. A Muslim kid will never study the Bible, and vice versa a Christian kid won’t study the Koran. But as they grew they will be more and more solid on their faith.

Of course there’s in conversion of faith too. Most of those are happening because of financial, political, social, or some other interest forcing it. Those conversions also often form a new regional version of the original religion. For example Latin America is dominantly Catholic (because of the Spanish and Portuguese). But people still mix in some Pagan elements from the far past, so they practice Voodoo, Santeria, and etc. (mostly African origin Paganism because of the slaves...)

Lenin (Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov) made just as big inpact on the world when he created the Soviet Union.
That empire is gone (luckily) but there's still many to beleive in his ideas.
This it for now....

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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There are plenty of us atheists who believe in the possibility that a superior power could exist.

Not that it matters, but isnt this closer to agnosticism?

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I am humble enough to know that there is a lot we don't yet know or understand about the universe.

As am I. However, I still maintain that there are things we are not supposed to understand, and that is also a trait of humbleness.

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As soon as someone can show me any legitimate evidence that god exists I would be more than happy to believe.

There will never be evidence enough for someone to believe. Even if God himself came down, again, to "convince" _you_ many would still deny. Because God is not found by seeing miracles, he found in faith. There is little evidence to believe that a marriage for me will last, but I still believe it is possible, given the strength and perseverance of love.

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Until then the existence of the christian god is just as real and just as believable as what the scientologists believe. Jesus Christ is no different to me than L Ron Hubbard. The only difference is that Christainity has been around longer and has convinced more people to believe. Give it another thousand years and who knows.

Giving this world another 1000 yrs might be a little optimistic... given the current climate of evil. But I understand the direction of what your saying. I dont know if you have actually read a Gospel, but for me, nothing has ever spoken to me the way it did/does. Your right, it is quite convincing to say the least.

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Maybe we will see that L Ron was right. I find it funny when Christians refer to other "religions" as cults. Just because yours has been around longer and has more followers doesn't make it any more or less of a cult than any others. I guess it just means that they have better marketing.

Yeah, I dont particualrly like bashing other beliefs. I guess im a little more tolerant than some in that regard. But a religion is about truth.. and as human beings, we have a connection with truth. If someone takes one belief as true, or even a non belief as true, then that is truth to them. Still, after everything I have heard, read, thought, Jesus is truth to me. Now, I am not in control of truth, and believe it or not, neither are you... but, truth is in control, and it seems to guide people in different ways. That is its perogative.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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What made you to turn into an Evangelical Christian? How come you’re NOT Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Gnostic Christian?

I dont claim to be any certain type of Christian. I dont understand where alot of the denominations get their "separation", but they are there nonetheless. I am simply a beleiver in what I heard.

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Everybody should study all existing religious text equally before they start preaching about the “truth”.

No offense at all, but I dont think that it is absolutely necessary to sift through all lies to find a truth. Im not talking about what I believe is truth, im talking about truth in general. Coincidentally, love is a great example of this. You dont always need to "play the field" to find love.

I do agree with what you say about our surroundings. But our surroundings encompass a great deal of indirect influence as well. We dont always get our beliefs from our immediate surroundings, but from influence in general... and contrary to popular belief, everything is connected in some way.

Alot of your post has to deal with oppression, and no, I do not agree with oppression. However, for me to tell you that I would not be a Muslim if I was born in a Muslim country is also not a truly fair statement. Because, first of all, its a hypothetical, second, im my mind, I tend to agree with you. But it doesnt address the fact that some Muslims, even some Jewish Israelites have taken firm stands in Christianity in the face of grave persecution.

Its not that people dont agree with the Gospel, its just that alot of them havent heard, or understood it. Chances are if you really knew the heart of the Gospel, you would agree it is something very beautiful and good. As it is, either you have read one, and you still dont agree with what Jesus is saying, or, you havent read one and you are basing your doubt on the intrepretainons of others. Sort of like the blind leading the blind... but not really. Its just that, trying to understand the Gospel from people who dont understand it themselves is like yeast in bread... a little goes a long way... unfortunately.

So, while I think many of you would follow Jesus if you met him, I am also aware that hypocrisy keeps people from wanting to. There is alot of hypocrisy in the churches... not all churches... but the commercialized ones for sure. I never hear people confessing sins and being united in their weakness through the strength of Grace. But, bonds such as those are happening, just not on the global commercial level. More like 2-10 people in a small room coming together in the name of Christ, or a grass hut in Africa... ect..

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The other option is when an existing religion gets reformed by a new leader who’s charismatic enough to effect on large masses. For example: Jesus reformed Judaism (he still talked about the same God and the Old Testament is still about Jewish history). Martin Luther reformed Christianity because he didn’t agree with the Catholic Church just like many others, so a new branch of the religion was born.
But ultimately all “believers” are getting the basics from the environment they were born into. Jesus was a Jew until he wasn’t satisfied with Judaism (which was very corrupted by his time),

Just a fundamental flaw in knowledge. Jesus didnt reform Judaism. It wasnt that he wasnt satisfied. The Gospel is the fulfillment of the Jewish faith. He came to fulfill the promise of grace. One of the amazing things about the Gospel is that Jesus was prophesized for centuries before he actually appeared. That truth cannot be ignored if you ask me. The age of the books alone and the content of the pre-King James versions of the bible can attest to that historical fact quite clearly... in every single book... and yes, even in the Koran. Fascinating to say the least.

I want to respond more, as I sense sincerity in your posts, but there is alot of content in there and right now I just dont have the time. For everyone else who thinks I am just hitting back and pulling the trigger too fast... this is merely a discussion. One that yes, people have fought over before, but we still have at least one thing in common over most... we still are skydivers, and theres no hard feelings here.

"We didn't start the fire"

[Nightingale 0]

I'm an agnostic, not an atheist, and in no way do I want to see a world where I'm never exposed to religion. I do, however, want to see a world where my tax dollars don't help pay for someone else's religion. I don't mind it during the holidays when they put a tree up around government buildings, but I'd rather not see a manger scene or a menorah. I don't want to see the ten commandments in a courthouse, references to a deity on our currency, or in a pledge in our public schools. Children should learn ABOUT religions in their social science classes, but they should not learn religion.

I also don't think that religions should get such tax breaks, particularly if they're going to get involved in politics. Too many of these organizations are 501c and acting like a PAC.

It is perfectly okay for any religion to do what they want, put up any kind of display on their property, pass out whatever kind of literature they wish, and ring doorbells and talk to people, or whatever they want to do to promote themselves. Just don't do it with public money or in public schools.

[georgerussia 0]

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From the Christian perspective

Here's where the problem starts. Basically every known religion would say that everyone else is "cult", "sect" or simply "wrong" - everyone but them of course. And of course they define the words the way to fit everyone but them.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[RonD1120 62]

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From the Christian perspective

Here's where the problem starts. Basically every known religion would say that everyone else is "cult", "sect" or simply "wrong" - everyone but them of course. And of course they define the words the way to fit everyone but them.

It is not a problem for Christians.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

(edited to add Scripture)

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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Trying to convert each other, or even belittling the other's positions is just self gratification of the worst kind.

I tend to agree with you, but there are indeed facts about Jesus that continually get overlooked in these forums, and since many non-believers are people of purely fact, it seems appropriate to at least set the facts straight as they apply to the Gospel. I still contend that I am not the ones starting theses threads, however, I seem to enjoy them a great deal... aparently. Plus, it does help time go by at work!

I think people just like discussing matters of spirituality vs non-spirituality. And given a forum like this one, they should be able to right? I dont think any of us decided to go on Dz.com and implant ourselves into the spirituality threads, but, in researching skydiving, we found this little community, and, a place in the community as well. I think people in these forums like to think alot, and, like to write, alot... so if anything, regardless what the discussion is, at least it can be theraputic for those who do like to think and write.

Anytime someone doesnt see things your way it can be quite frustrating, nevertheless, connections and common ground can often be found deep in that frustration... whether your attempting to connect with someone or not. Few of us have actually met (speaking for myself) and I think given the opprotunity to meet, we would see that we are indeed very similar in our uniqueness.

I dont think anyone is trying to belittle, in fact I think most of the "shots" that are taken are taken out of frustration more than an implied "malice"... but thats one of the great things about this forum... venting about what is not understood is a good thing, at least it is closer to the truth than trying to "win" an argument.

Good job and your words certainly fit me as well.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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There is a difference in the fundamentals of both faiths. Buddha was enlightened to life, and Jesus is life. This is in no way an attack on Buddhism, just an observation of the difference in fundamentals of the two faiths.

This difference needed to be stated, thank you. So many become entangled in the rules for right living they miss the truth of the Gospel.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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***What made you to turn into an Evangelical Christian? How come you’re NOT Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Gnostic Christian?

I dont claim to be any certain type of Christian. I dont understand where alot of the denominations get their "separation", but they are there nonetheless. I am simply a beleiver in what I heard.

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Ephesians 4:11
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

Jesus guides us into the different offices as He directs to reveal Him.

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***Everybody should study all existing religious text equally before they start preaching about the “truth”.

No offense at all, but I dont think that it is absolutely necessary to sift through all lies to find a truth.

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In my life's journey, I studied several different spiritual philosophies. Then I met Jesus Christ of Nazareth and I knew that my spiritual quest for truth had reached the end. Everything fell into place, the pieces came together and the search was over. No one was with me at the time. It was a life changing experience that opened the door to blessings that could not even be imagined prior to meeting Jesus.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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[pilotsR4pimps 0]

do you know there have been hundreds of antichrists throughout history.anybody who came up against the version of faith out at that time. people only know what they "believe" in now, which is not a lot as most people dont know how much was created, changed, why, etc. So you're telling me that an invisible in guy in the sky sees everything you do and if you dont believe in him or his son then you go to hell? But he loves you? Come on. It's all based off off pagan myth. It's not logical and it's sadism. This is known and very well supported with evidence (stemming from pagan myth). Remember there are 150 different main religions, christianity having 34,000 denominations/sects, etc. Most christian sects believe in the same shit but many differ drastically. If there were truly one way there would more factual based evidence and less confusion because when one reads the bible today they have no idea what the hell they are reading. There would be one way. Not many. Written by MAN altered throughout time, books/stories added/taken out, and influenced by hundreds of cultures by men with their own political/financial agendas. Learn what you think you believe in and I'll take it seriously. BTW, I was a born again christian for 16 years and pretty adamant about it too. Now I am a cultural Anthropologist specializing in Religion. Trust me, it's not what most people think it is and what happened to the original codes/ethics to live by is just BAD

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm an agnostic, not an atheist, and in no way do I want to see a world where I'm never exposed to religion. I do, however, want to see a world where my tax dollars don't help pay for someone else's religion. I don't mind it during the holidays when they put a tree up around government buildings, but I'd rather not see a manger scene or a menorah. I don't want to see the ten commandments in a courthouse, references to a deity on our currency, or in a pledge in our public schools. Children should learn ABOUT religions in their social science classes, but they should not learn religion.

I also don't think that religions should get such tax breaks, particularly if they're going to get involved in politics. Too many of these organizations are 501c and acting like a PAC.

It is perfectly okay for any religion to do what they want, put up any kind of display on their property, pass out whatever kind of literature they wish, and ring doorbells and talk to people, or whatever they want to do to promote themselves. Just don't do it with public money or in public schools.

I was going to cut and paste just a couple lines here that I agreed with and vote you for president again.

But I found that each line I read I wanted to add to the post...

N'Gale for President

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SStewart 13]

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We don't know where the wind comes from or where it goes but while it is here we experience the effects of it and it becomes real. The Greek word for air and/or spirit is pneuma.

Actually, we do know where the wind comes from and where it goes. To state the obvious wind is caused by differences in air pressure. If it comes from the south it blows to the north. It is quite simple really. As a skydiver I would think you would have a basic understanding of wind.

Onward and Upward!

[RonD1120 62]

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We don't know where the wind comes from or where it goes but while it is here we experience the effects of it and it becomes real. The Greek word for air and/or spirit is pneuma.

Actually, we do know where the wind comes from and where it goes. To state the obvious wind is caused by differences in air pressure. If it comes from the south it blows to the north. It is quite simple really. As a skydiver I would think you would have a basic understanding of wind.

It was a metaphorical explanation. Andy9o8 says I don't communicate well. My bad. The comparison is used in Scripture. The purpose of my example was to help describe spiritual influence in the world.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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BTW, I was a born again christian for 16 years and pretty adamant about it too.

Are you willing to share your born again experience with us e.g., when it happened?; what were you feeling before the experience?; after the experience? where you alone?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rehmwa 2]

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Andy9o8 says I don't communicate well. My bad. The comparison is used in Scripture.

Using scripture with non-religious people like me is like talking to them in some different language - if fact, it's counterproductive to communication as quotes tend to turn people off and it gives the impression you don't have your own thoughts, rather just indoctrination.

Using scripture with anti-religious types just reinforces their bias more.

Preaching to a choir is like Obama talking to the mass media. It's pointless as they are already on your side. People making debate need to speak in the other side's terms to be understood.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,991]

>It is not a problem for Christians.

Nor is it a problem for any other religion. They know that _they_ are the one true faith, and that the other sects of Christianity/Judaism etc are just misguided - and will quote endless passages from their holy books to justify that position.

All in all, it's a pretty silly game to play IMO.

[pilotsR4pimps 0]

yeah. it felt good. like being a part of a community. like the way i feel when i am at DZ with the people i love and trust. But something was missing. I started discovering gaps in the information being presented to me as a christian. I was 6 when I started to understand what was going on as a "believer". I spent my entire life in a "holy ghost" filled church going 4 times a week. I learned a lot. But I always knew something was wrong. Things didn't match up with logic, such as:

1: What if you are not able to believe in the abrahamic God and messages and rules? What if you are just wired differently and require belief based around unbiased evidence and logic. WHat then? Will I still be sent to hell for exercising free will? I started to realize it was made up.

2. I started to travel the world in the Navy in 2002 and saw so many cultures with their own creation myths, Gods, afterlives and requirements for such. All radically different although some were along the same lines. I continually started to realize that it was bogus.

3. I started attending Penn State with a BA in Cultural Anthropology, on my own specializing in religion, and learned deeper the process of evolution and the empirical evidence whether physical, genetic, or embryological and at the same time I saw groups of faith trying to counter it with the "bible" which at the time I supported. I realized that that is not a sufficient form of evidence as it is radically different from the original works. Now we have "intelligent design" which is just another idiot friendly term for creationism. Still very unsupported only by an ancient book that has changed more than we could imagine.

4. The fact that human beings have been on this planet for 200,000 years with only the last 2.5-3500 years under the belief of a single God. Before that, and still today, it was paganism and before that it was animal/plant spirit worship. It is just an evolved idea used to deny the fact we are responsible for our own actions.

5. Jesus was a man. Thats it. The pagan practices and rituals were applied to Jesus' life to appease both the pagan and new christian uprising in socialized Europe in the 300's AD. Constantine was smart about this and at the first council of niceaa they picked and chose and created different works to add on to the already confiscated Torah.


Here is why we created God: the inability to explain phenomena such as natural disasters, death, the night sky, disease, greed, etc. We put God in the gaps of science. Here is the next part, as we discover more and more and learn daily God is being pushed out of our lives. Sure people will hold on to the idea and that will evolve into the next crazy idea but God is being pushed out of the gaps.

When I left the faith I felt amazing. Highly educated and ready to share my new knowledge with the world. Sadly the people who dont know or understand the advances in science, mathematics, astronomy, history, anthropology and archaeology are the lower class or people who are "too" comfortable in their faith. Claiming faith as there reason for not wanting to learn. But faith is the boast of a man who is too lazy too investigate.

Now my parents are still in the church but me and my 3 siblings are all agnostic/atheist as we went to college and are continuing to learn as more information comes along.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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I do, however, want to see a world where my tax dollars don't help pay for someone else's religion. I don't mind it during the holidays when they put a tree up around government buildings, but I'd rather not see a manger scene or a menorah. I don't want to see the ten commandments in a courthouse, references to a deity on our currency, or in a pledge in our public schools. Children should learn ABOUT religions in their social science classes, but they should not learn religion.

Agreed. Believe it or not, I am actually looking forward to when people start removing God from their lives. Its already happening. All this is prophesied, except you show more tolerance than the prophesy speaks of. Growing hatred toward Jesus is a sign, according to the Gospel. Besides, putting a cross in my front yard, and fighting to ensure my children get to keep God in their schools, and God on their money (of all things this is the most ridiculous), has nothing to do with being a Christian.

"Fighting" the spirit of the anti Christ is not what Jesus teaches me anyway. Understanding the times however, is something my faith leads me to do. To quote Jesus, "Such things must happen, but the end is still to come." I have stated several times that I dont get involved in politics. Call me apoligetically apathetic if you will, but the worlds politics were never built to survive. How can they? They are primarily focused on the power and influence of man. Take the cameras away and the tactics in politics change. Have you ever seen me in a SC politics thread? Anyway...

History has shown us that we dont do a very good job of learning from those gone before us. We say the same things they did, "I want a better life for my family"... "the world may be better without God"... "we have a more intelligent mind for peace" ect... But, the truth is actually quite ironic.

Peaceful communities try to enforce peace at some point... with or without belief in God. America will completely shed its Christian heritage/influence as it relates to politics... and will become the Godless nation it is prophesied to be (many are not as tolerant as Nightingale). I doubt, at that point we will be the dominant world influence, as we are already losing ground as a nation of freedom, power, and peace, and we are being fashioned by the media (us) into a predominantly hostile country under a blanket of good deeds... in the eyes of many in the world that is. Its no secret that much of our politics got us to where we are today... is it???

However, America will be represented by the spirit of the anti Christ wherever he makes his home. (The Gospel says Jerusalem). He (AC) will bring peace to the world... and naturally, as all peaceful communities have, he will turn and begin to enforce his Godless ideals. He is not called the "Abomination that causes Desolation" for nothing.

Now, just becasue America will inevitably eliminate Jesus from its politics, doesnt mean that you will be able to eliminate Jesus from the hearts of those still living here. God is very clear in the Gospel... grow closer to him, or further away. He gives us what we want. If you want a life without him, thats what he will give you, if you want a life with him... I say hold on tight, becasue you are in for the ride of your life.

All of you need to at least read some of the prophesy... as so many are "preparing" for 2012 based on predictions believed more than the prophesies of Jesus, you may just be walking on the wrong side of the truth.

I dont get it really. I stand for a message of love, and in the world of hypocrites, that is not always an easy thing. So many hear the words of the hypocrite, but few actually hear the message of Jesus. I am not only speaking of non-believers.

I dont know if we will remember who we are/were when we leave here, but I do know that we will become part of a voice... a voice that speaks through the living and the dead.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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So you're telling me that an invisible in guy in the sky sees everything you do and if you dont believe in him or his son then you go to hell? But he loves you? Come on

Im afraid my revelation of God was much more astonishing. God is spirit, he is not a man, or a guy. We have a heart that can be inspired by his spirit, but only God can reveal God. And yes, that which created you loves you. God is the spirit of freindship. "When two or more get together in my name, there I will be".

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It's not logical and it's sadism

The logic is as simple and complex as love. Love is not always logical is it? But the simplicity of it does work, and, does feel quite natural. Calling love a sadist inspiration is fair for those who dont believe in its everlasting power. Im my life, I have seen love destroy me and bring me back to life. It is quite powerful and more often than not, illogical and irrational... but very very real.

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Now I am a cultural Anthropologist specializing in Religion

Im sorry man, I dont know what a cultural anthropoligist is. Id like to know though. However, if you specialize in religion, you can attest that the Gospel sums up pretty nicely the love in other religions. God himself dying for his loved ones so that they might have a taste of a hope-filled life. See, what is so amazing about this message, is that it is sealed in the blood of love. Not even time can un-crucify Jesus. There will always be those who belong to this message.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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do you know there have been hundreds of antichrists throughout history

Im not really certain how anyone can percieve the anti Christ has already come. The Gospel is quite clear that he will be a man of marvelous powers... he will enbody the actual brilliance, defiance, and power of the dark authorities. He will be man vs. God with power thought impossible. In otherwards, he wont be very difficult to spot for those who know he is coming. But for those who do not know, he will be the savior of the world, and many will follow him.

I dont like discussing prophesy as much with non-believers, but I do think it is funny that the "audience" stays much more in tuned if your speaking about Nostradamus or the Mayan civilization. Nevertheless, this is the Gospel... it is not my message, but the message of Jesus Christ.

As far as the anti Christ is concerned, the bible says that his spirit is already in the world, and I agree. But manifested through one man yet... not even close. Some close ones would be Stalin or Hitler, but they were merely decieved by the deciever. The actual deciever will be much more powerful and his message will be like a thornless rose in a babys hand with the sweetest aroma.

The fact that many Christians will not obey or listen to him will enrage those who have been fully decieved by it his message... then the real persecution is said to begin. According to the Gospel. Dont think so? Just look at what Hitler alone was able to do, and he is not the anti Christ, not even close.

"We didn't start the fire"

[Andy9o8 2]

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Andy9o8 says I don't communicate well. My bad. The comparison is used in Scripture.

Using scripture with non-religious people like me is like talking to them in some different language - if fact, it's counterproductive to communication as quotes tend to turn people off and it gives the impression you don't have your own thoughts, rather just indoctrination.

Using scripture with anti-religious types just reinforces their bias more.

Preaching to a choir is like Obama talking to the mass media. It's pointless as they are already on your side. People making debate need to speak in the other side's terms to be understood.

Yes. As I said above, "use terms common to both speaker and audience."
To which I'll add: don't use circular logic.