Freedom OF religion means freedom FROM religion

[yourmomma 0]

"All my life I have seen a constant wearing away of our Christian heritage"

The fact is no you have not. The truth is church attendance is greater than at any point in our history.

What is truly sad is even given all the facts, you refuse to accept a very basic truth. The most pious of our founding fathers where the ones who demanded the separation which has gradually been eroded. Due to a BELIFE in non facts and half truths.

[RonD1120 62]

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What is truly sad is even given all the facts, you refuse to accept a very basic truth.

What is truly sad is that you do not know what you are talking about because you do not know what I have experienced. Do not assume you can view the world from my perspective.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,489]

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What is truly sad is even given all the facts, you refuse to accept a very basic truth.

What is truly sad is that you do not know what you are talking about because you do not know what I have experienced. Do not assume you can view the world from my perspective.

Then I say it's sad that you say it's sad that he says it's sad that you say it's sad what BillVon said even though you can't view the world from his experience and know what he would consider sad.

Or something. I may have got lost in the middle there.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 62]

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Or something. I may have got lost....

Yes, an understatement for sure.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[FallingOsh 0]

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Again, facts are independent of any outside observer. They simply are. The speed of light IS 186,000 miles per second. It doesn't matter who in the universe measures it.

Actually, it would. Miles per second is your frame of reference.

Speed of light is independent of frame of reference; both in Einstein's use of the phrase and your use to mean "units of measure."

Facts don't change. "Truth" about facts change. When some people thought the world was flat was the truth, the fact the world was actually round didn't change. Their agreement over the "truth" of the facts had to change, but the facts themselves didn't change at all.

That's the same point I was making. You just switched the words truth and fact.

If the facts are always right then we can't call anything out of a science book fact. We can call them "what we think are thruths," but not facts since the term "fact" indicates ultimate understanding.

My point, which you seem to agree with, is that science is not fact. It is our understanding of the facts. Which, in your definition, is just a temporary truth. That's why I always chuckle when people completely discount religion because they "only believe what experimental evidence shows." Well... 100 years from now everything you think is true will likely have changed. Congratulations on taking the more realistic approach.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[quade 4]

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Well... 100 years from now everything you think is true will likely have changed.

Highly doubtful. Some details may help clarify some theories, but things like basic chemistry and the speed of light certainly aren't going to change a single bit.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[philh 0]

Why do you think your personal experience has anything to do with the truth. I have had a very powerful experience of falling whilst in bed. It seemed very real to me , but Im smart enough to know my brain was tricking me. Many people have this experience:
http://sleepdisorders.about.com/od/glossary/g/Hypnagogic_Jerk.htm
So clearly having a convicning experience does nto neccesarily mean there is an external reality to it. So why should we conclude your personal experience has an external reality to it?

[philh 0]

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Again, facts are independent of any outside observer. They simply are. The speed of light IS 186,000 miles per second. It doesn't matter who in the universe measures it.

Actually, it would. Miles per second is your frame of reference.

Speed of light is independent of frame of reference; both in Einstein's use of the phrase and your use to mean "units of measure."

Facts don't change. "Truth" about facts change. When some people thought the world was flat was the truth, the fact the world was actually round didn't change. Their agreement over the "truth" of the facts had to change, but the facts themselves didn't change at all.

That's the same point I was making. You just switched the words truth and fact.

If the facts are always right then we can't call anything out of a science book fact. We can call them "what we think are thruths," but not facts since the term "fact" indicates ultimate understanding.

My point, which you seem to agree with, is that science is not fact. It is our understanding of the facts. Which, in your definition, is just a temporary truth. That's why I always chuckle when people completely discount religion because they "only believe what experimental evidence shows." Well... 100 years from now everything you think is true will likely have changed. Congratulations on taking the more realistic approach.

That's why I always chuckle when people completely discount SANTA CLAUS because they "only believe what experimental evidence shows." Well... 100 years from now everything you think is true will likely have changed. Congratulations on taking the more realistic approach.

[RonD1120 62]

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So why should we conclude your personal experience has an external reality to it?

What do you think personal experiences do to effect reality?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[philh 0]

Perhaps yould answer my question before positng another.

[RonD1120 62]

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Perhaps yould answer my question before positng another.

It is far more important for you to understand you than it is for you to understand me. I am just a voice in the cyber wilderness.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 2,027]

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Why do you think your personal experience has anything to do with the truth.

While some of us were working on our advanced degrees, Ron was killing billions of brain cells daily with his admitted substance abuse. It explains a lot.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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Our heritage includes a clear statement that we are NOT a Christian nation (ratified by the Senate and signed by the President).

wrong - our heritage includes a clear statement that we do not have a Christian "government" - big difference

I hope the nation is not defined as a "xxxxxx" nation, but simply a nation of individuals and all that that encompasses

you people keep looking for a matrix to fit in, some stereotype.... I believe the founders really wanted to get away from that

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,027]

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Our heritage includes a clear statement that we are NOT a Christian nation (ratified by the Senate and signed by the President).

wrong - our heritage includes a clear statement that we do not have a Christian "government" - big difference

I hope the nation is not defined as a "xxxxxx" nation, but simply a nation of individuals and all that that encompasses

you people keep looking for a matrix to fit in, some stereotype.... I believe the founders really wanted to get away from that

How do you like The Apotheosis of Washington, then? Right under the Capitol dome.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[philh 0]

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Perhaps yould answer my question before positng another.

It is far more important for you to understand you than it is for you to understand me. I am just a voice in the cyber wilderness.

Still not answering the question then?

[mnealtx 0]

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Why do you think your personal experience has anything to do with the truth.

While some of us were working on our advanced degrees, Ron was killing billions of brain cells daily with his admitted substance abuse. It explains a lot.

While yours were dying from hypoxia up there on top of your ego.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[RonD1120 62]

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Why do you think your personal experience has anything to do with the truth.

While some of us were working on our advanced degrees, Ron was killing billions of brain cells daily with his admitted substance abuse. It explains a lot.

I have an advanced degree. As far as killing brain cells, only the weak ones. Don't you always feel smarter after a couple beers?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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wrong - our heritage includes a clear statement that we do not have a Christian "government" - big difference

I hope the nation is not defined as a "xxxxxx" nation, but simply a nation of individuals and all that that encompasses

you people keep looking for a matrix to fit in, some stereotype.... I believe the founders really wanted to get away from that

Good one!

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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While yours were dying from hypoxia up there on top of your ego.

Thank you.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rehmwa 2]

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Our heritage includes a clear statement that we are NOT a Christian nation (ratified by the Senate and signed by the President).

wrong - our heritage includes a clear statement that we do not have a Christian "government" - big difference

I hope the nation is not defined as a "xxxxxx" nation, but simply a nation of individuals and all that that encompasses

you people keep looking for a matrix to fit in, some stereotype.... I believe the founders really wanted to get away from that

How do you like The Apotheosis of Washington, then? Right under the Capitol dome.

that's a complete non sequitor

still I looked it up, it's neat. thanks

But I don't think the founders intended for us to be multi-theists either. Nor do I believe a painting constitutes the gov demanding we convert to one particular belief system or the other

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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wrong - our heritage includes a clear statement that we do not have a Christian "government" - big difference

I hope the nation is not defined as a "xxxxxx" nation, but simply a nation of individuals and all that that encompasses

you people keep looking for a matrix to fit in, some stereotype.... I believe the founders really wanted to get away from that

Good one!

I don't understand your approval, as you seem to be advocating a "Christian Nation" approach - which, frankly, I don't think is applicable in today's world even if it was back then. If you are not advocating that position as it pertains (marginally) to this thread topic, then you are really wasting time here arguing with those on the flip side of the same coin you value so much. You won't convert anyone, and it's annoying when people try (atheists, christians, mormons, or whoever) - mainly because it ends up with just a bunch of people talking smug about their position and belittling their counterpart ( yes, I see the irony of this paragraph and that sentence)

background - I'm cynically agnostic (apathetic agnostic) I have serious issues with organized religious/political machines and I'm not religious personally in any way - I'm not even atheist, I believe wasting energy on subjective belief systems is silly in general as it can't be resolved directly (by definition).

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[RonD1120 62]

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you are really wasting time here arguing with those on the flip side of the same coin you value so much. You won't convert anyone,

Argue? Convert? My dear fellow you fail to see the humor. This is a forum for intellectualization and pontification. No one will ever win or be converted by the BS of cyberspace. This is fantasy land for those who do not have video games at hand.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rehmwa 2]

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you are really wasting time here arguing with those on the flip side of the same coin you value so much. You won't convert anyone,

Argue? Convert? My dear fellow you fail to see the humor. This is a forum for intellectualization and pontification. No one will ever win or be converted by the BS of cyberspace. This is fantasy land for those who do not have video games at hand.

I do see the pontificaiton in spades across all the threads....

then, dear sir - get thee to a WII

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[RonD1120 62]

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I do see the pontificaiton in spades across all the threads....

then, dear sir - get thee to a WII

Good one!

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Laszloimage 0]

I’m getting back to the original topic here… “Freedom of religion means freedom from religion”.
Why is that so important to keep religion out of politics? And why is important to keep religion out of public schools as well?
Because they can be very dangerous for a free society (relatively free) like the American one.
Here I have to tell a little about my personal experience which happened a few years back here in FL. It was the “big time” for the Intelligent Design people. They tried to sell their idea every where including FL (easy target very Bible belt). So they came to the near town Dade city and gave a week long “scientific” seminar about ID. This is nothing else but creationism falsely wrapped in science. Skydive City’s manager TK and I went to attend the first seminar and ask very tough questions. (I also video taped the whole thing…) The man who spoke Donald (I forgot his last name but I can dig it up…) claimed to be a PhD of paleontology, and he claimed to obtain his degree in an Australian university which of course doesn’t exist. (we checked on it of course)
He started his speech of this seminar “it has nothing to do with religion, it only tries to give an alternative option to those who don’t believe in evolution”. The next statement was this 5 evening event is sponsored by “the Church of Jesus Christ” (nothing to do with religion… right???).
The story starts getting scary here. The whole evening (for about 2-2.5 hours) he was displaying dinosaur’s fossils, DNA, bacteria, and etc. on the projector and explaining how things were created more than evolved. Beside that for more scientific details (and this is the fucked up part of this long story) he referred to this web site: http://bible.ca/
…Bible.ca as a scientific reference? A bit scary.
The link for the actual ID theory (which by itself is nonsense) on the referred site: http://www.bible.ca/tracks/

The real FUCKED UP part of it is coming now. I checked the rest of Bible.ca and found very BAD things on it. For example stating such a thing if you are a Muslim you can’t be a patriot and a loyal citizen of the U.S.!!! Here’s the link, because it’s still on the web: http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-oxymoron.htm

Also this site a pro war site which politically endorses the Iraq invasion (what country Jesus would bomb?) I thought Christianity is all about peace (that’s what they say right???) …sorry I couldn’t find that exact page now (as I type this post).
But here’s another stupid link about homosexuality: http://www.bible.ca/s-Homo-Genetic.htm Homosexuality isn’t a lifestyle and isn’t a choice either!!! It exists among animals too. I’m a straight man though…

The really scary and fucked up part of all this is these people almost managed to have ID theory to be taught in the FL public school system! The state Supreme Court voted 3-2 against it! ONLY one vote and FL would teach Christian creationism in its public schools!!! At the mean time these ID people also make very sharp statements against non Christians (like Muslims shouldn’t be good US citizens!!!) and giving total nonsense misleading picture just about all aspect of the world. Just check out the rest of Bible.ca!

THAT’S WHY RELIGIOUS FREEKS SHOULD STAY AWAY FROM POLITICS, PUBLIC EDUCATION, AND LEGISLATION!!! THEY ARE VERY DANGEROUS!!!

…in addition another example. Sara Palin said something like that “Obama should listening to God” (not the exact words, but the exact meaning) when he makes a political decision. She made this statement recently in TN during the “Tee Party Meeting”. I know this from NPR news (…I know I should listening something more reliable like FOX)
Which God the U.S. president should listen to? Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, or some pagan?
Palin’s Evangelical views imposed in her political views can be very dangerous for the rest of the non Evangelical part of the world. She should stay away from politics too, but at least she SHOULDN’T push her own any religious agenda while ignoring others!