georgerussia 0 #151 February 5, 2010 As far as I remember, guns are pretty unrestricted in Florida comparing to our states. So I do not understand your point.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #152 February 5, 2010 Quote Show some actual data yourself and I'll provide targeted links. Until then, search it out on the FBI site yourself. You're getting just boring. You said the data is there, but several times refused to provide the link where the data is, nor you admitted the data is not there. I see no point in discussing it further with you.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #153 February 5, 2010 QuoteQuote And finally to the stories. I'm not reading "armed citizen" because I am not interested [in any data that contradicts my own viewpoint LALALALALALALALLALALALALA (fingers in ears)] I thought I made it pretty clear without your childish editing: I'm not reading "armed citizen" because I am not interested of how a minority of armed people protects themselves from crimes. As I said, like the majority I do not own any guns, so none of those stories are relevant to me. It's relevant to your repeated claim that the bad incidents outnumber the good ones. It's easy to maintain this fantasy if you refuse to count any examples. Of course, you're still willing to post links to inappropriate case examples you think support your argument. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Txflier 0 #154 February 5, 2010 QuotePeet's and CPK tell Open Carry customers: No guns allowed There was a bunch of gun freaks executing their right by openly carrying their guns (unloaded and holstered, legal) around some family businesses. I would even call them idiots because a reasonable person would not consider it a good idea to brazen their gun rights in front of families with children. Of course people complained about it, and it seems like those complains work. Some local businesses are not welcoming gun carriers anymore. And the comments are even more interesting than article. Looks like those gun freaks pissed off a good amount of locals. So, please do it again and do it more - this would really help to push down even more restrictions than you have now. I've made a note to spend some money this weekend, and tell the management in person that I approve their policy. Quote Hmmm didn't read all the posts, but why would a kid seeing a gun be a bad thing. IMO they should be taught about firearms. what if they come across one at some point and accidentally shoot somebody cause they don't know how to handle one. http://www.notsoboringlife.com/ramblings/top-10-causes-of-accidental-death/ Plus it's not the legal carries that went through proper channels to obtain and carry a gun I would be worried about, but the ones you don't see that the criminals are carrying.I'm not the rope totin charlie Bronson wanna be that's getting us fucking lost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #155 February 5, 2010 Quote It's relevant to your repeated claim that the bad incidents outnumber the good ones. committed toward the non-gun owner majority. This is important question whether restricting guns would make the country safer for ALL of us, not just for gun owners. Currently for the majority it seems like the benefits of others owning guns are greatly exceed by drawbacks of crazy people getting guns and criminals getting much easier access to guns. This is my point.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #156 February 6, 2010 QuoteQuote It's relevant to your repeated claim that the bad incidents outnumber the good ones. committed toward the non-gun owner majority. This is important question whether restricting guns would make the country safer for ALL of us, not just for gun owners. Currently for the majority it seems like the benefits of others owning guns are greatly exceed by drawbacks of crazy people getting guns and criminals getting much easier access to guns. This is my point. With no foundation. In other words, normal for you. The important bit is that you have a choice right now. You can choose to give yourself options, or you can continue to hope nothing happens, or that the police will show up early enough to be useful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #157 February 6, 2010 Quote With no foundation. In other words, normal for you. No, normal for the majority of us. Quote The important bit is that you have a choice right now. This is misleading. I do not have a choice of not having a gun myself AND having the reduced crime rate which comes with reduced gun availability. The "choice" you offer is basically "take it or not" - pretty much as saying that you don't need guns at all because you have a choice to hire a bodyguard to protect yourself. And if you refused this "reasonable choice", it's your problem then.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aresye 0 #158 February 6, 2010 Now why would you spend an immensely larger amount of money on a bodyguard, have somebody tagging along with you everyday, and still probably have a long response time when they aren't around you? Most bodyguards are not there 100% of the time. The ones that are, cost an INSANE amount of money. They also have to adhere to the gun laws in your area, so there is absolutely no advantage to a bodyguard, unless you're being hunted by the mafia, or something to that extent. You're really not putting forth any remotely clear logic at this point. If you're referring to a bodyguard who is trained with guns, and therefore a better choice, let me remind you that in order to get a concealed license, you must sit through an all day class, in addition to demonstrating proficiency on a live fire shoot. There's also many classes that are dedicated to teaching advanced levels of training to concealed carriers. There's many types of tactical shooting classes, for carbines, concealed carry, knives, and even classes for becoming a bodyguard yourself. I really don't get why you don't think The Armed Citizen applies to you. For one thing, they also post news articles of people who have subdued attackers by non-lethal means, and without weapons. Your idea that because you don't own a gun, it doesn't apply to you, is simply denial. You've got this idea in your head, whether you live in a good neighborhood, or have never been in a life-threatening situation before, that your local law-enforcement, military, and/or bodyguard will protect you. First off, the police have no regulation, policy, or obligation to defend you. If your city has a dire situation someplace else, and a person is holding you and/or your family at gunpoint, there may never be anybody that shows up. They are not obligated to send somebody right away for your protection. This also applies in a state of Rule-of-Law. If there's a natural disaster, uprising, or even something as simple as a power-outage, it can trigger a city/state/nationwide panic. Just look at the Rodney King riots, Hurricane Katrina, and most recently, Haiti. One thing is very common between all these instances. Chaos, anarchy, looters, civil unrest, etc. Let's forget about weapons for a second. The overall thing we're trying to push, is being fully capable of taking care of yourself, and your family. If your city plunges into civil unrest, are you prepared? Do you have a grab&go bag dedicated to that situation if you need to flee the city? Are you prepared with a proper medical kit? Means of communication? Signaling devices? Food? Water? All I'm trying to say, is that history tends to repeat itself. If a bad situation never happens, oh well. If it does, I'm prepared. Stop trying to rely on other people to take care of you, such as LEO, military, bodyguards, home security networks, etc. *BTW, none of this is intended as a personal attack. If it comes across as such, I apologize.Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aresye 0 #159 February 6, 2010 Also, here's a link to a whole lot of past-events in which CCW holders, have assisted, or saved a LEO from danger. We're all in the same fight together. If these citizens had not come to their aid, because weapons are restricted, then most of those officers would have died, leaving their cities, and neighborhoods, a more dangerous place. http://www.kc3.com/self_defense/officers_peril.htmSkydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blacklabjumper 0 #160 February 6, 2010 If you go to richmondtimesdispatch.com you find at least two aryicles of people with permits to carry stopped an armed robbery in progress. One incident happen in the last 6 months and the other was a little longer ago than six months. We are an open carry state and it is not unusual to go some place like starbucks and see several people with sidearms. It's not an everyday occurance but I have personally witnessed it. People here do not freak out. Oh this is all in Richmond, VA.Rodriguez Brother #1626 Dudiest Skydiver #1962 DPH #-2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aresye 0 #161 February 6, 2010 I remember reading an article on LA Times, saying something along the lines that concealed permit holders in FL are above 800% less likely to commit a crime than the general population. Makes since, considering you register your fingerprints with the state. Not too many would-be criminals are into that sort of thing. *EDIT* Found it! http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OpEds/More_Permits_Means_Less_Crime.htm QuoteWhat we can say with some confidence is that allowing more people to carry guns does not cause an increase in crime. In Florida, where 315,000 permits have been issued, there are only five known instances of violent gun crime by a person with a permit. This makes a permit-holding Floridian the cream of the crop of law-abiding citizens, 840 times less likely to commit a violent firearm crime than a randomly selected Floridian without a permit. Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #162 February 6, 2010 Quote I remember reading an article on LA Times, saying something along the lines that concealed permit holders in FL are above 800% less likely to commit a crime than the general population. I believe the statistics is much better with those having "top secret" clearance. You see my point? It is not like getting a permit makes average Joe more law-abiding. It is that those people who went through hassle to get it would be more reasonable and less likely to start shooting family members because of college debt. As I said several times, gun restrictions in Europe are not absolute. Some people still can get (and even carry) guns - mostly from security, but private citizens too. The system, however, is very tough on giving out weapons permits - and this is why there is relatively little gun crime in Europe comparing to U.S. where to buy a gun you basically need to have no criminal background and be sober enough to fill the form. Quote Makes since, considering you register your fingerprints with the state. Anyway, everyone provides their fingerprints to state (DMV) in California when getting a driver license, and I don't see it as big deterrent. Quote http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OpEds/More_Permits_Means_Less_Crime.htm A typical Dave Kopel article. You do see that he does not provide ANY references, and expect you to believe everything he wrote? Just an example: Quote The National Rifle Assn. cites figures showing that concealed carry states have much lower violent crime rates than other states. That's what he said. Now let's see what Census says. Just some cuts (the numbers are per 100K): States which I know have gun restrictions: California 533 District of Columbia 1,508 Illinois 542 New York 435 Now let's compare with some states which basically give permits to anyone: Florida 712 Maryland 679 Nevada 742 Texas 516 So it is pretty clear that the statement that "concealed carry states have much lower violent crime rates than other states" is false (with DC being the only exception, but this comparison is wrong because DC is a city, and its statistics should be compared with cities, not with states). Considering that it took me 10 seconds to find the data, we can make a conclusion that either Dave Kopel intentionally provides incorrect information (probably assuming that nobody gonna check it), or he just quotes everything NRA says without checking it. In both cases it means that his credibility is pretty low. Hopefully this would explain a question someone asked why I don't read his wed site.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #163 February 6, 2010 QuoteI do not have a choice of not having a gun myself AND having the reduced crime rate which comes with reduced gun availability. Too bad the stats don't agree with your statement - not that it stops you from making it over and over and over.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #164 February 6, 2010 QuoteAs I said several times, gun restrictions in Europe are not absolute. Some people still can get (and even carry) guns - mostly from security, but private citizens too. The system, however, is very tough on giving out weapons permits - and this is why there is relatively little gun crime in Europe comparing to U.S. where to buy a gun you basically need to have no criminal background and be sober enough to fill the form. Then fucking move back to Europe and quit whining. QuoteQuote http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OpEds/More_Permits_Means_Less_Crime.htm A typical Dave Kopel article. You do see that he does not provide ANY references, and expect you to believe everything he wrote? Just an example: Why not? YOU expect us to believe everything YOU write. QuoteQuote The National Rifle Assn. cites figures showing that concealed carry states have much lower violent crime rates than other states. That's what he said. Now let's see what Census says. Just some cuts (the numbers are per 100K): States which I know have gun restrictions: California 533 District of Columbia 1,508 Illinois 542 New York 435 Now let's compare with some states which basically give permits to anyone: Florida 712 Maryland 679 Nevada 742 Texas 516 So it is pretty clear that the statement that "concealed carry states have much lower violent crime rates than other states" is false (with DC being the only exception, but this comparison is wrong because DC is a city, and its statistics should be compared with cities, not with states). Cities don't issue their own driver's licenses. They also don't have their own 'state code'. QuoteConsidering that it took me 10 seconds to find the data, we can make a conclusion that either Dave Kopel intentionally provides incorrect information (probably assuming that nobody gonna check it), or he just quotes everything NRA says without checking it. In both cases it means that his credibility is pretty low. Hopefully this would explain a question someone asked why I don't read his wed site. 2006 numbers to rebut an article from 1996. It's not Kopel's credibility that's lacking, here.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #165 February 6, 2010 Quote Then fucking move back to Europe and quit whining. Did you see I wasn't talking to you? Do you know why? Because you don't have any arguments, only insults and personal attacks.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #166 February 6, 2010 QuoteQuote Then fucking move back to Europe and quit whining. Did you see I wasn't talking to you? Do you know why? Because you don't have any arguments, only insults and personal attacks. That's fucking HILARIOUS, coming from you, Mr. "My opinion is fact". If you think Europe is so great, then move back there.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #167 February 6, 2010 Quote If you think Europe is so great, then move back there. I suggest you keep your useless advice to yourself.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #168 February 6, 2010 QuoteQuote If you think Europe is so great, then move back there. I suggest you keep your useless advice to yourself. Take your own advice.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhaig 0 #169 February 6, 2010 Quote Then fucking move back to Europe and quit whining. as much as we'd all love to not hear george's whining, I never tell people to pack up and get out if they don't like it. I tell them to work within the system to change things. Vote, support a political candidate with time and or money, run for office. but mainly I'd tell george, do all of those things so you don't have time to come whine here anymore.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aresye 0 #170 February 6, 2010 Hey everybody: Chill! No need to be bickering back and forth because of your viewpoints. For the most part, this thread has been a mature discussion. Let's keep it that way. QuoteI believe the statistics is much better with those having "top secret" clearance. You see my point? It is not like getting a permit makes average Joe more law-abiding. It is that those people who went through hassle to get it would be more reasonable and less likely to start shooting family members because of college debt. As I said several times, gun restrictions in Europe are not absolute. Some people still can get (and even carry) guns - mostly from security, but private citizens too. The system, however, is very tough on giving out weapons permits - and this is why there is relatively little gun crime in Europe comparing to U.S. where to buy a gun you basically need to have no criminal background and be sober enough to fill the form. So if I'm reading this correctly, you don't have a problem with concealed carry licensees, but a problem with people acquiring guns in the first place? A lot of states in the US have a fairly difficult process to acquire guns. If a person has no criminal history, no medical history of mental illness, and is a squared-away, mature individual, then there's no reason to deny them the right to self-defense. If they go crazy in 10 years and start shooting, I'd rather see a concealed carrier immediately subdue the threat, than have them gun down dozens of people before police respond. What would have happened during VA-Tech, Fort Hood, Columbine, etc, if teachers and or military members were allowed to carry concealed? A whole bunch of people who would be here today. QuoteA typical Dave Kopel article. You do see that he does not provide ANY references, and expect you to believe everything he wrote? You're certainly entitled to your own opinion. Here's another proving the same points, and citing references as well: http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0210e.asp QuoteThat's what he said. Now let's see what Census says. Just some cuts (the numbers are per 100K): States which I know have gun restrictions: California 533 District of Columbia 1,508 Illinois 542 New York 435 Now let's compare with some states which basically give permits to anyone: Florida 712 Maryland 679 Nevada 742 Texas 516 DC's the only exception? Texas there seems to have a lower rate than Illinois, California, and Washington, DC. What about New Hampshire, which allows open carry, in addition to having some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country? http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nhcrime.htmSkydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #171 February 6, 2010 QuoteQuote If you think Europe is so great, then move back there. I suggest you keep your useless advice to yourself. If you do the same many would be happy"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #172 February 6, 2010 Quote Quote Quote If you think Europe is so great, then move back there. I suggest you keep your useless advice to yourself. If you do the same many would be happy What kind of BS is that, Marc - you surely would be the only one as you have nothing intelligent to add ... Just imagine that about 60 million of your total population stems from Germany, what about the rest??? Send all of them back where they came from, and perhaps you'd be the lonely cowboy riding into the sunset. You Yanks should check out your roots from time to time. (Except you're a redskin ) dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #173 February 6, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote If you think Europe is so great, then move back there. I suggest you keep your useless advice to yourself. If you do the same many would be happy What kind of BS is that, Marc - you surely would be the only one as you have nothing intelligent to add ... Just imagine that about 60 million of your total population stems from Germany, what about the rest??? Send all of them back where they came from, and perhaps you'd be the lonely cowboy riding into the sunset. You Yanks should check out your roots from time to time. (Except you're a redskin ) He received the same advise he gave. That is not ok in your book?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #174 February 6, 2010 QuoteIf you do the same many would be happy Do I give you advice?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aresye 0 #175 February 6, 2010 Seriously guys. I like this topic. Would be a shame to get it closed for personal attacks.Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. 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georgerussia 0 #155 February 5, 2010 Quote It's relevant to your repeated claim that the bad incidents outnumber the good ones. committed toward the non-gun owner majority. This is important question whether restricting guns would make the country safer for ALL of us, not just for gun owners. Currently for the majority it seems like the benefits of others owning guns are greatly exceed by drawbacks of crazy people getting guns and criminals getting much easier access to guns. This is my point.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #156 February 6, 2010 QuoteQuote It's relevant to your repeated claim that the bad incidents outnumber the good ones. committed toward the non-gun owner majority. This is important question whether restricting guns would make the country safer for ALL of us, not just for gun owners. Currently for the majority it seems like the benefits of others owning guns are greatly exceed by drawbacks of crazy people getting guns and criminals getting much easier access to guns. This is my point. With no foundation. In other words, normal for you. The important bit is that you have a choice right now. You can choose to give yourself options, or you can continue to hope nothing happens, or that the police will show up early enough to be useful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #157 February 6, 2010 Quote With no foundation. In other words, normal for you. No, normal for the majority of us. Quote The important bit is that you have a choice right now. This is misleading. I do not have a choice of not having a gun myself AND having the reduced crime rate which comes with reduced gun availability. The "choice" you offer is basically "take it or not" - pretty much as saying that you don't need guns at all because you have a choice to hire a bodyguard to protect yourself. And if you refused this "reasonable choice", it's your problem then.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aresye 0 #158 February 6, 2010 Now why would you spend an immensely larger amount of money on a bodyguard, have somebody tagging along with you everyday, and still probably have a long response time when they aren't around you? Most bodyguards are not there 100% of the time. The ones that are, cost an INSANE amount of money. They also have to adhere to the gun laws in your area, so there is absolutely no advantage to a bodyguard, unless you're being hunted by the mafia, or something to that extent. You're really not putting forth any remotely clear logic at this point. If you're referring to a bodyguard who is trained with guns, and therefore a better choice, let me remind you that in order to get a concealed license, you must sit through an all day class, in addition to demonstrating proficiency on a live fire shoot. There's also many classes that are dedicated to teaching advanced levels of training to concealed carriers. There's many types of tactical shooting classes, for carbines, concealed carry, knives, and even classes for becoming a bodyguard yourself. I really don't get why you don't think The Armed Citizen applies to you. For one thing, they also post news articles of people who have subdued attackers by non-lethal means, and without weapons. Your idea that because you don't own a gun, it doesn't apply to you, is simply denial. You've got this idea in your head, whether you live in a good neighborhood, or have never been in a life-threatening situation before, that your local law-enforcement, military, and/or bodyguard will protect you. First off, the police have no regulation, policy, or obligation to defend you. If your city has a dire situation someplace else, and a person is holding you and/or your family at gunpoint, there may never be anybody that shows up. They are not obligated to send somebody right away for your protection. This also applies in a state of Rule-of-Law. If there's a natural disaster, uprising, or even something as simple as a power-outage, it can trigger a city/state/nationwide panic. Just look at the Rodney King riots, Hurricane Katrina, and most recently, Haiti. One thing is very common between all these instances. Chaos, anarchy, looters, civil unrest, etc. Let's forget about weapons for a second. The overall thing we're trying to push, is being fully capable of taking care of yourself, and your family. If your city plunges into civil unrest, are you prepared? Do you have a grab&go bag dedicated to that situation if you need to flee the city? Are you prepared with a proper medical kit? Means of communication? Signaling devices? Food? Water? All I'm trying to say, is that history tends to repeat itself. If a bad situation never happens, oh well. If it does, I'm prepared. Stop trying to rely on other people to take care of you, such as LEO, military, bodyguards, home security networks, etc. *BTW, none of this is intended as a personal attack. If it comes across as such, I apologize.Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aresye 0 #159 February 6, 2010 Also, here's a link to a whole lot of past-events in which CCW holders, have assisted, or saved a LEO from danger. We're all in the same fight together. If these citizens had not come to their aid, because weapons are restricted, then most of those officers would have died, leaving their cities, and neighborhoods, a more dangerous place. http://www.kc3.com/self_defense/officers_peril.htmSkydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blacklabjumper 0 #160 February 6, 2010 If you go to richmondtimesdispatch.com you find at least two aryicles of people with permits to carry stopped an armed robbery in progress. One incident happen in the last 6 months and the other was a little longer ago than six months. We are an open carry state and it is not unusual to go some place like starbucks and see several people with sidearms. It's not an everyday occurance but I have personally witnessed it. People here do not freak out. Oh this is all in Richmond, VA.Rodriguez Brother #1626 Dudiest Skydiver #1962 DPH #-2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aresye 0 #161 February 6, 2010 I remember reading an article on LA Times, saying something along the lines that concealed permit holders in FL are above 800% less likely to commit a crime than the general population. Makes since, considering you register your fingerprints with the state. Not too many would-be criminals are into that sort of thing. *EDIT* Found it! http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OpEds/More_Permits_Means_Less_Crime.htm QuoteWhat we can say with some confidence is that allowing more people to carry guns does not cause an increase in crime. In Florida, where 315,000 permits have been issued, there are only five known instances of violent gun crime by a person with a permit. This makes a permit-holding Floridian the cream of the crop of law-abiding citizens, 840 times less likely to commit a violent firearm crime than a randomly selected Floridian without a permit. Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #162 February 6, 2010 Quote I remember reading an article on LA Times, saying something along the lines that concealed permit holders in FL are above 800% less likely to commit a crime than the general population. I believe the statistics is much better with those having "top secret" clearance. You see my point? It is not like getting a permit makes average Joe more law-abiding. It is that those people who went through hassle to get it would be more reasonable and less likely to start shooting family members because of college debt. As I said several times, gun restrictions in Europe are not absolute. Some people still can get (and even carry) guns - mostly from security, but private citizens too. The system, however, is very tough on giving out weapons permits - and this is why there is relatively little gun crime in Europe comparing to U.S. where to buy a gun you basically need to have no criminal background and be sober enough to fill the form. Quote Makes since, considering you register your fingerprints with the state. Anyway, everyone provides their fingerprints to state (DMV) in California when getting a driver license, and I don't see it as big deterrent. Quote http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OpEds/More_Permits_Means_Less_Crime.htm A typical Dave Kopel article. You do see that he does not provide ANY references, and expect you to believe everything he wrote? Just an example: Quote The National Rifle Assn. cites figures showing that concealed carry states have much lower violent crime rates than other states. That's what he said. Now let's see what Census says. Just some cuts (the numbers are per 100K): States which I know have gun restrictions: California 533 District of Columbia 1,508 Illinois 542 New York 435 Now let's compare with some states which basically give permits to anyone: Florida 712 Maryland 679 Nevada 742 Texas 516 So it is pretty clear that the statement that "concealed carry states have much lower violent crime rates than other states" is false (with DC being the only exception, but this comparison is wrong because DC is a city, and its statistics should be compared with cities, not with states). Considering that it took me 10 seconds to find the data, we can make a conclusion that either Dave Kopel intentionally provides incorrect information (probably assuming that nobody gonna check it), or he just quotes everything NRA says without checking it. In both cases it means that his credibility is pretty low. Hopefully this would explain a question someone asked why I don't read his wed site.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #163 February 6, 2010 QuoteI do not have a choice of not having a gun myself AND having the reduced crime rate which comes with reduced gun availability. Too bad the stats don't agree with your statement - not that it stops you from making it over and over and over.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #164 February 6, 2010 QuoteAs I said several times, gun restrictions in Europe are not absolute. Some people still can get (and even carry) guns - mostly from security, but private citizens too. The system, however, is very tough on giving out weapons permits - and this is why there is relatively little gun crime in Europe comparing to U.S. where to buy a gun you basically need to have no criminal background and be sober enough to fill the form. Then fucking move back to Europe and quit whining. QuoteQuote http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OpEds/More_Permits_Means_Less_Crime.htm A typical Dave Kopel article. You do see that he does not provide ANY references, and expect you to believe everything he wrote? Just an example: Why not? YOU expect us to believe everything YOU write. QuoteQuote The National Rifle Assn. cites figures showing that concealed carry states have much lower violent crime rates than other states. That's what he said. Now let's see what Census says. Just some cuts (the numbers are per 100K): States which I know have gun restrictions: California 533 District of Columbia 1,508 Illinois 542 New York 435 Now let's compare with some states which basically give permits to anyone: Florida 712 Maryland 679 Nevada 742 Texas 516 So it is pretty clear that the statement that "concealed carry states have much lower violent crime rates than other states" is false (with DC being the only exception, but this comparison is wrong because DC is a city, and its statistics should be compared with cities, not with states). Cities don't issue their own driver's licenses. They also don't have their own 'state code'. QuoteConsidering that it took me 10 seconds to find the data, we can make a conclusion that either Dave Kopel intentionally provides incorrect information (probably assuming that nobody gonna check it), or he just quotes everything NRA says without checking it. In both cases it means that his credibility is pretty low. Hopefully this would explain a question someone asked why I don't read his wed site. 2006 numbers to rebut an article from 1996. It's not Kopel's credibility that's lacking, here.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #165 February 6, 2010 Quote Then fucking move back to Europe and quit whining. Did you see I wasn't talking to you? Do you know why? Because you don't have any arguments, only insults and personal attacks.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #166 February 6, 2010 QuoteQuote Then fucking move back to Europe and quit whining. Did you see I wasn't talking to you? Do you know why? Because you don't have any arguments, only insults and personal attacks. That's fucking HILARIOUS, coming from you, Mr. "My opinion is fact". If you think Europe is so great, then move back there.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #167 February 6, 2010 Quote If you think Europe is so great, then move back there. I suggest you keep your useless advice to yourself.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #168 February 6, 2010 QuoteQuote If you think Europe is so great, then move back there. I suggest you keep your useless advice to yourself. Take your own advice.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #169 February 6, 2010 Quote Then fucking move back to Europe and quit whining. as much as we'd all love to not hear george's whining, I never tell people to pack up and get out if they don't like it. I tell them to work within the system to change things. Vote, support a political candidate with time and or money, run for office. but mainly I'd tell george, do all of those things so you don't have time to come whine here anymore.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aresye 0 #170 February 6, 2010 Hey everybody: Chill! No need to be bickering back and forth because of your viewpoints. For the most part, this thread has been a mature discussion. Let's keep it that way. QuoteI believe the statistics is much better with those having "top secret" clearance. You see my point? It is not like getting a permit makes average Joe more law-abiding. It is that those people who went through hassle to get it would be more reasonable and less likely to start shooting family members because of college debt. As I said several times, gun restrictions in Europe are not absolute. Some people still can get (and even carry) guns - mostly from security, but private citizens too. The system, however, is very tough on giving out weapons permits - and this is why there is relatively little gun crime in Europe comparing to U.S. where to buy a gun you basically need to have no criminal background and be sober enough to fill the form. So if I'm reading this correctly, you don't have a problem with concealed carry licensees, but a problem with people acquiring guns in the first place? A lot of states in the US have a fairly difficult process to acquire guns. If a person has no criminal history, no medical history of mental illness, and is a squared-away, mature individual, then there's no reason to deny them the right to self-defense. If they go crazy in 10 years and start shooting, I'd rather see a concealed carrier immediately subdue the threat, than have them gun down dozens of people before police respond. What would have happened during VA-Tech, Fort Hood, Columbine, etc, if teachers and or military members were allowed to carry concealed? A whole bunch of people who would be here today. QuoteA typical Dave Kopel article. You do see that he does not provide ANY references, and expect you to believe everything he wrote? You're certainly entitled to your own opinion. Here's another proving the same points, and citing references as well: http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0210e.asp QuoteThat's what he said. Now let's see what Census says. Just some cuts (the numbers are per 100K): States which I know have gun restrictions: California 533 District of Columbia 1,508 Illinois 542 New York 435 Now let's compare with some states which basically give permits to anyone: Florida 712 Maryland 679 Nevada 742 Texas 516 DC's the only exception? Texas there seems to have a lower rate than Illinois, California, and Washington, DC. What about New Hampshire, which allows open carry, in addition to having some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country? http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nhcrime.htmSkydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #171 February 6, 2010 QuoteQuote If you think Europe is so great, then move back there. I suggest you keep your useless advice to yourself. If you do the same many would be happy"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #172 February 6, 2010 Quote Quote Quote If you think Europe is so great, then move back there. I suggest you keep your useless advice to yourself. If you do the same many would be happy What kind of BS is that, Marc - you surely would be the only one as you have nothing intelligent to add ... Just imagine that about 60 million of your total population stems from Germany, what about the rest??? Send all of them back where they came from, and perhaps you'd be the lonely cowboy riding into the sunset. You Yanks should check out your roots from time to time. (Except you're a redskin ) dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #173 February 6, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote If you think Europe is so great, then move back there. I suggest you keep your useless advice to yourself. If you do the same many would be happy What kind of BS is that, Marc - you surely would be the only one as you have nothing intelligent to add ... Just imagine that about 60 million of your total population stems from Germany, what about the rest??? Send all of them back where they came from, and perhaps you'd be the lonely cowboy riding into the sunset. You Yanks should check out your roots from time to time. (Except you're a redskin ) He received the same advise he gave. That is not ok in your book?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #174 February 6, 2010 QuoteIf you do the same many would be happy Do I give you advice?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aresye 0 #175 February 6, 2010 Seriously guys. I like this topic. Would be a shame to get it closed for personal attacks.Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
