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jclalor

Kidnapping Haitian Kids for Christ

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Looks like reasonable doubt exists, more evidence needed. It is unusual for females to be involved in child trafficking. News reports are saying it is a target rich environment for child predators. Organ harvesting from unwilling donors is probably another area of financial opportunity. There is a lot of evil in the world.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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It is unusual for females to be involved in child trafficking. News reports are saying it is a target rich environment for child predators.



They may not have been knowingly involved. Trafficker gets a group of empathetic volunteers to do his trafficking for him. They think they're doing a good thing, the kids eventually end up on the market.
Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

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It is unusual for females to be involved in child trafficking. News reports are saying it is a target rich environment for child predators.



They may not have been knowingly involved. Trafficker gets a group of empathetic volunteers to do his trafficking for him. They think they're doing a good thing, the kids eventually end up on the market.



Wow! That would take a highly developed system of deception and conspirators. However, from what I have seen in my lifetime I believe anything is possible.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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Regardless of their plans for the children, which I tend to doubt were nefarious, it shows the arrogance of people to decide they know what is best and just ignoring the local authorities.



I kind of agree with the principle of what you say, but I really wonder to what degree there are effective "local authorities", i.e., as opposed to anarchy. Judging mainly from news reports and similar sources, it does seem that virtual anarchy reigned in the first several days post-disaster. I watched a report on CNN where a camera crew happened to be on the scene moments after police officers had just summarily shot 2 men suspected of stealing some bags of rice. One man lived to tell the tale on-camera; the other man quivered and died on camera. How many such incidents occurred that are undocumented? It may very well be that there have been no reliable "local authorities" to consult.

There are a lot of unanswered questions, obviously. For example, were the children confirmed as orphans; or at the very least, had their adult family members effectively disappeared? What were the intentions of the aid workers who were trying to take them - simply to find them temporary safe sanctuary, or permanent re-settlement (and/or adoption) elsewhere? There are too many as-yet unresolved facts to label this a "human trafficking" or a "kidnapping" case quite so soon.

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Can you imagine the outrage if instead of baptist they were Mormons or Jehovas witnesses?
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/31/haiti.border.arrests/index.html?hpt=T2



As much grief as I generally give most religious activities, even I would cut these folks some slack until some facts are known.

They were either doing something nobel or horrible, but let's get the fact straight first.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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just ignoring the local authorities.



Because the Haitian authorities are so well known for their altruism and purity of spirit.



I think someone did not pay off the right people... NOW.. they will have to cross the "right hands" with even more cash.

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Actually the case of exporting orphans was in the news in Canada right from day one. The Haitian government, such as it is, was on the job and adamant from the get go that no children were leaving until the forms had been obeyed. The fact is these people were taking them out via the DR was because they were not allowed to take them out through the airport because they couldn't prove that they were orphans.

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Just shows that no matter how grand the intent, lack of research, planning, and understanding of the situation will probably lead to poor results.

Funny thing though-if they had gotten the kids across the border, cared for them until the crisis abated, and repatriated them it would have been a friggin movie of the week in time for September sweeps.
You are only as strong as the prey you devour

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Funny thing though-if they had gotten the kids across the border, cared for them until the crisis abated, and repatriated them it would have been a friggin movie of the week in time for September sweeps.


But if they had gotten the kids across the border, found homes for them, and one or two of them turned out to be not orphans, we would never have heard about it. It would just be one more broken hearted mother in a land of broken hearts.

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just ignoring the local authorities.



Because the Haitian authorities are so well known for their altruism and purity of spirit.



I think someone did not pay off the right people... NOW.. they will have to cross the "right hands" with even more cash.



That may very well have been the case. Our good friends, who are (legal!) immigrants from Mexico, where blatant police (and other official) corruption at every level is a pervasive aspect of daily social fabric, laugh at the naivete' of those of us from countries where that is not the case, when we're shocked that that happens in other places. Very similar to my own experiences traveling through Latin America.

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just ignoring the local authorities.



Because the Haitian authorities are so well known for their altruism and purity of spirit.



I think someone did not pay off the right people... NOW.. they will have to cross the "right hands" with even more cash.



That may very well have been the case. Our good friends, who are (legal!) immigrants from Mexico, where blatant police (and other official) corruption at every level is a pervasive aspect of daily social fabric, laugh at the naivete' of those of us from countries where that is not the case, when we're shocked that that happens in other places. Very similar to my own experiences traveling through Latin America.



I really wish we could just pay off the cops here like there.... instead of having to deal with thier "tickets" for supposed infractions.. I just look at those as just another cost of driving on our road system. I suppose they have to pay for all their new toys some way right??

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They were either doing something nobel or horrible, but let's get the fact straight first.



I saw several of the Baptist on TV this morning and they admitted to taking the children from the director of an orphanage in Haiti. They admitted to not having the proper documents but thought that due to the chaos they were doing the right thing for the children.This despite of constant news reports of Haiti restricting the removal of all orphans until things could be sorted out. Some witnesses said several of the older children had phone numbers of relatives in Haiti and were denied being able to make phone calls to them.
I know they thought they had the childrens best interest at heart but it also shows how a person under the color of religion looses common sense, they feel the ends justify the means.

Nothing more noble than bringing savage children to Christ.

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Nothing more noble than bringing savage children to Christ.



Or they simply could have been trying to get some children to where they'd be better taken care of. Try not to be so cynical when it comes to people trying to help kids in a situation that is as fucked up as Haiti currently is.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Or they simply could have been trying to get some children to where they'd be better taken care of.



The same logic we used in this country to take native kids from their parents and put them into church run residential schools.


sure, but good intentions can be assumed and we can still disagree with the results on occasion - take good honest liberals - most mean well, they just don't think about the consequences of their mis-placed good intentions......:ph34r:

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Or they simply could have been trying to get some children to where they'd be better taken care of.



The same logic we used in this country to take native kids from their parents and put them into church run residential schools.



I was unaware of any earthquakes destroying entire cities in the US recently. But if you want that to be your argument . . . go for it. Further, if the kids are orphans, I think the presumption probably ought to be that their parents aren't around. I realize that some of the kids are saying they have parents, but . . . I also realize that some of the kids may be in shock and wishfully thinking.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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I was unaware of any earthquakes destroying entire cities in the US recently. But if you want that to be your argument . . . go for it. Further, if the kids are orphans, I think the presumption probably ought to be that their parents aren't around. I realize that some of the kids are saying they have parents, but . . . I also realize that some of the kids may be in shock and wishfully thinking.


See that's the thing with comparisons. They are not exactly the same situation in every detail, only in some. In this case it was the desire of the do gooders to decide that they know what's best for others and act without community involvement. It doesn't really have anything to do with tectonic plates.
The assumption that these kids are orphans is something the government has steadfastly not been willing to do without evidence.

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I think we can both agree on a couple of things at the very least;

1) Haiti is fucked up.
2) Kids in Haiti need help desperately.
3) It's generally a good thing to give help to those that might otherwise die.

I'm absolutely not saying mistakes might not have been made, but from my first response in this thread all I've really been saying is give the people the benefit of the doubt here first and get the facts before you condemn them as trying to do something horrible.

FFS, this entire thread basically proves a point that I've been stating for years; "If you stood on a street corner and gave out $20 bills - SOMEBODY would bitch about it."
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Or they simply could have been trying to get some children to where they'd be better taken care of.



The same logic we used in this country to take native kids from their parents and put them into church run residential schools.


sure, but good intentions can be assumed and we can still disagree with the results on occasion - take good honest liberals - most mean well, they just don't think about the consequences of their mis-placed good intentions......:ph34r:



Uh.. DUDE... I am thinking that a baptist church based group from Idaho that is involved in this fiasco.. cant be labeled with your favorite buggaboo label....:S:S:S

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as an example for comparison it works

it really is terrible of me to assume that most liberals (and all people for that matter) really have good intentions

therefore, "good honest" liberals is a TERRIBLE characterization and slam to all the other self gratifying evil ones - so sorry

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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