ZigZagMarquis 9 #26 August 29, 2006 QuoteI'm a pilot. How many times have I said it? Too numerous to count ... how many more times will it take? ... and keep on saying it. I wish more would. I've been yelled at too by pilots and seen others "called to the front of the plane" too... most of the time we deserved it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #27 August 29, 2006 QuoteQuote If it turns out that an open door does make engine out on take off less manageable, the USPA should lobby to have a FAR established that mandates having the door closed from take off to 1000 feet. This would screw over planes that don't have doors which aren't being used in skydiving operations. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The last thing we need is another written regullation. Given the current speed of FAR revision, the law will come into effect about the same time force-fileds repalce airplane doors. Hee! Hee! Far wiser would be encourage skydivers to act like adults and follow current policy. If skydivers are too uncomfortable to follow existing policies, they should be encouraged to jump at the next DZ down the road. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #28 August 29, 2006 This past weekend, Bob McGeezer and I were laughing at all the junior jumpers whining about the heat in Pitt Meadows. It was only in the 30 degrees Celcius or 80 Fahrenheit range. Vancouver has one of the mildest climates in all of Canada. We just laugh at Vancouverites who whine about the weather. Hee! Hee! Back in our ill-spent youths, both Bob and I worked at Hemet, California where 100+ degrees Fahrenheit was common along with humidity so high that the haze got so bad that we were only legally VFR. Let me tell you sonny, back in my day, up hill, both ways, in the snow, and we were lucky if we could convince a pterodactyl to take us up to 500 feet! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #29 August 30, 2006 QuoteI'm a pilot. How many times have I said it? Too numerous to count ... how many more times will it take? Cool! Our pilot has aborted more than one TO because some idiot opened the door after we started to roll. I love him.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jheadley 0 #30 August 30, 2006 Why is it ok for a CASA to have it's door open on takeoff? I guess since it's a tailgate, it wouldn't have much effect on drag, but there are still the other issues mentioned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #31 August 30, 2006 QuoteWhy is it ok for a CASA to have it's door open on takeoff? I guess since it's a tailgate, it wouldn't have much effect on drag, but there are still the other issues mentioned. In a CASA I don't think anyone is sitting near enough to the open door to have their premature pilot chute get into the airstream and deploy their canopy, thereby producing a modern version of the rack. And there is also the drag issue.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #32 August 31, 2006 i like the thought of having at least 1 hookup on a tandem student before door open if they are near the door - to many times i saw students sitting in the plane with the door open and nothing between them and the door. i always sat in front of the student or kept their seat belt on until the door closed or hook up - i have had a couple bumpy rides that could easily cause anyone to fall if standing. i have even seen a jumper fall out of an otter at 3000 feet from a bumpy ride with a questionable pilot Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #33 August 31, 2006 QuoteWhy is it ok for a CASA to have it's door open on takeoff? I guess since it's a tailgate, it wouldn't have much effect on drag, but there are still the other issues mentioned. The few jumps I have made out of a CASA the door was closed on take off. I have heard but don't for a fact that a Skyvan gets a large percentage of its lift from the shape of the fuselage. If that is a fact it might also apply to a CASA. Can a Skyvan or CASA driver jump in here and confirm this.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #34 August 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhy is it ok for a CASA to have it's door open on takeoff? I guess since it's a tailgate, it wouldn't have much effect on drag, but there are still the other issues mentioned. The few jumps I have made out of a CASA the door was closed on take off. I have heard but don't for a fact that a Skyvan gets a large percentage of its lift from the shape of the fuselage. If that is a fact it might also apply to a CASA. Can a Skyvan or CASA driver jump in here and confirm this. Okay... not Pilot... but Aerospace Engineer here... ... my premise would would be that Drag would be increased on a tail gate with the door open, rather then closed... but I'd need to do some wind-tunnel experiments to verify. Anyway, in a CASA, can't the pilot open / close the door? I'm not sure, but the couple of times I've been in a CASA, I recall the Door / Ramp being electrically controlled and it was the aircrew that opened and closed it... but maybe I'm wrong, because my memories of being in the same CASA were having almost died in it on takeoff after it thumped off the "over-run" (if you want to call it that) at Perris heading for the canal and the pilot snatched it into the air... stupidist thing I ever did in my life was get back in that a^&%$@ aircraft with the same pilot on the next load... but we took off the other direction... ... but that's a different story. Anyway, didn't Perris (not picking on Perris, great place) when they first got the Skyvan have a big "Roll-Up" door that went vertical across the "big hole in the back"... but later went back to the "production" in-flight door that covered the whole "sloped" surface. Anyway, anyway, I'd doubt a Skyvan or CASA get much lift from their fuselage "shape", maybe some, but I'd venture to guess the Skyvan has a "lifting strut", but I'd have to take a closer look at one to tell... I know some Sherpa's have them. Sorry... you got an airplane geek talking about airplanes... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zing 2 #35 August 31, 2006 Don't know much regarding Casas, but the Skyvan fuselage is designed in the shape of a lifting body, along with the "stub wings" over the main landing gear. There is a noticeable difference in the way the plane handles with the door closed as opposed to with it open. Perris' Skyvan did have a roll-up door for a while, but the added drag of the big hole back there slowed the climb rate considerably, neccesitating the return to the factory installed door. Curiously, the Skyvan tailgates have stops installed to prevent the door from going past the frame when it swings down to the closed position. If the door is not locked open, the airflow sucks it down toward the closed position. The faster you go, the closer it comes to full closed. If it ever got past the stops, it might be catastrophic ... something like a giant dive brake. Sport DeathZing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #36 August 31, 2006 QuoteI recall the Door / Ramp being electrically controlled and it was the aircrew that opened and closed it... Yes the door on a CASA is controlled by the pilot. QuoteAnyway, didn't Perris (not picking on Perris, great place) when they first got the Skyvan have a big "Roll-Up" door that went vertical across the "big hole in the back"... but later went back to the "production" in-flight door that covered the whole "sloped" surface. The Skyvan Perris has now is the second one they have had. Back in the 80’s I believe they had one and flew it with the ramp door removed. You sat on the floor without seat belts. On take off if you were in the last row near the big hole you could feel yourself self sliding a little every time the plane bounced. Scary. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #37 August 31, 2006 Quotebut the Skyvan fuselage is designed in the shape of a lifting body, along with the "stub wings" over the main landing gear. There is a noticeable difference in the way the plane handles with the door closed as opposed to with it open. Thanks Robert, I thought I had heard about that at one time but wasn't sure.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #38 August 31, 2006 > Back in the 80’s I believe they had one and flew it with the ramp door removed. Not sure if it was the first or second one, but in 1995 they had one that flew with no door as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #39 August 31, 2006 All the summertime jumps I've made from CASAs, the plane has taken off with the door open. Pilot closes it at, maybe, 5,000ft.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #40 August 31, 2006 I suspect that hooks were the primary reason that Perris experimented with a slide-up Lexan door on their Skyvan. Back in 1987, I remember having a long discussion with the pilot of the Pink Skyvan. He explained how a jumper hung-up on one of the hooks. That was not the first time a jumper hung up on part of the Skyvan's ramp mechanism. The hooks are part of the down-lock mechanism for the Skyvan's tailgate. He also mumbled something about a retractable version of those hooks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #41 August 31, 2006 Zing... what happened to Joe Crotwell's Skyvan? I assume it was sold off after Joe passed away?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vidiot 0 #42 August 31, 2006 QuoteHe also mumbled something about a retractable version of those hooks. Those do indeed exist. They are used on the Pink Skyvans.My Logbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zing 2 #43 August 31, 2006 Don't know what the final disposition of Joe's airplanes will be. Some fellows came last weekend and picked up his King Air, which was parked at Elroy. Both airplanes are now parked at the airport at Payson, Arizona.Zing Lurks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #44 August 31, 2006 Bummer... (but not as big a bummer as Joe's passing, of course) ... I was hoping it would have been outfitted better for skydiving and maybe start making the rounds of DZs in CA... I thought I had heard thats what Joe wanted to do with it maybe... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernguru 0 #45 September 1, 2006 The PIC is in command of the aircraft and all occupants. If there is an accident or incident ultimately the finger will be pointed at him. Enough said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #46 September 6, 2006 QuotePlane takes off door closed. Then door opens a couple of inches (5-10). Then at 1000 door is open all away. I think thats how it works at the no rule DZ. Ya pretty much, and it freaks me out. Especially when the russians are on board yelling " can we get a couple of inches please" as if you'll be killed by the person yelling if you don't crack open the door. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #47 September 7, 2006 Quote Curiously, the Skyvan tailgates have stops installed to prevent the door from going past the frame when it swings down to the closed position. ........ If it ever got past the stops, it might be catastrophic ... something like a giant dive brake. Sport Death This has already happened due damage caused by jumpers slamming the door down. In the story I was told the tailgate swung past the the stops and when it hit the air it tore open and unhinged at one side but remained connected to the aircraft with fatal results. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #48 September 8, 2006 QuoteThis has already happened due damage caused by jumpers slamming the door down. In the story I was told the tailgate swung past the the stops and when it hit the air it tore open and unhinged at one side but remained connected to the aircraft with fatal results. Where and when?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #49 September 13, 2006 Maybe the pilots should have a button in the cockpit to lock the door from being opened by anyone on the aircraft until he releases that lock. Sort of like those child safety locks in automobiles. Sounds like a damn good idea to me. Although I guess... that COULD be dangerous in a way. If.. I don't know the pilot passes out or.. has a heartattack during flight. Well even then they could just put the button where someone could get to it easily, but the pilot could smack their hand if he doesn't want them touching it. :)Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #50 September 13, 2006 >Maybe the pilots should have a button in the cockpit to lock the >door from being opened by anyone on the aircraft until he >releases that lock. Too complex and too easy to defeat. The risks would far outweigh the advantages. Imagine the failure modes. I'd put this one in the same category as an idea I once heard, where Rantoul jumpers would get a device fitted to prevent their containers from opening above 3000 feet. "For safety's sake, of course!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
