Half of U.S. pays no federal income tax

[billvon 3,009]

>Well I guess there is no problem then.

I didn't say that at all. There IS a problem (with both our debt and obesity in the US.) But going after banks because they loan us money (or let us do things like CDSes) is akin to going after McDonald's because they sell us burgers.

Should both be regulated? Definitely. But they shouldn't be blamed for our misuse of them.

[Rstanley0312 1]

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>Well I guess there is no problem then.

I didn't say that at all. There IS a problem (with both our debt and obesity in the US.) But going after banks because they loan us money (or let us do things like CDSes) is akin to going after McDonald's because they sell us burgers.

Should both be regulated? Definitely. But they shouldn't be blamed for our misuse of them.

I totally agree Bill.... I do not think they need heavy regulation but some is important... obviously.... maybe not so much for McD's though. I am tired of the people blaming the fact that they are fat on fast food chains and the fact that they are in financial trouble on the banks bc they cannot handle their own money. Where did personal responsibility go?

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I am not advocating going after consumer banks. Unlike some people here, the amount of profits consumer banks make does not upset me. I have the option to purchase bank stocks here in Canuckistan if want to profit from bank earnings. But there is a difference between the consumer banking institutions and central banks. We are letting central banks invent money out of thin air, they lend this newly created money to governments and governments in turn must pay back the loans from their tax revenues. Every year debt grows and it becomes harder to pay the interest owed from the available tax revenues. This results in even higher debt, higher taxation and poor services from governments. Yes it is true the USA spends an insane amount of money on it's military. But the USA is also spending an insane amount of money just paying back small portions of the interest on it's debt to these Central Bankers.

Politicians say one thing and do the other. They are just self serving puppets, every last one of them.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[dreamdancer 0]

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Well I guess there is no problem then. You are obviously not concerned about the money Central Bankers continue to create out of thin air. So where is the problem? Half of the USA does not pay income tax. Didn't 100% of the USA not pay income tax before the Central Bankers took over almost a century ago? Looks like you guys are 50% of the way getting back to the good old days. Except the good old days did not include the Fed.

how about this to break away from the bankers...

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Under the current economic circumstances, it is more urgent than ever that we shun the limiting beliefs we may have about our power to acquire what we need and look beyond our wallets for other forms of currency. There is a well of creativity that can be tapped to bring more abundance to people and communities. This is a good time to experiment with ways to re-invent commerce and expand our potential to acquire the things we need and want. Here are a few ideas that have worked.

In the early '80s while living in Durango, Colorado I made my living by practicing therapeutic massage. A town of ski bums, mountain bikers and climbers, people were just getting by from what they could earned during our winter and summer tourist seasons. Massage for many was a luxury they could not afford.

Wanting to increase my ability to acquire what I needed, I started offering to trade professional massage in exchange for goods and services. Who would not want a massage to relieve stress or to alleviate the pains of hard mountain biking or skiing? My trade activity grew rapidly. The owner of the local bookstore, an avid mountain biker, let me charge books which were paid for with massage. A fellow called to ask if I'd like a cord of firewood delivered to my cabin door before the first snows. I jokingly accused my dentist of being over zealous in finding work to do in my mouth to which she admitted wanting more massage. People began to pay debts to others by transferring massages to them.

This bartering grew to include others throughout town. There was no formal structure, just agreements between people, "I'll give you my services in exchange for your goods, sound good?" People were able to do business without cash just by keeping the agreements.

Eventually someone created a register of available bartering partners, making it possible to trade with people one did not previously know. As if to prove the success of the movement, the organizer of the register was contacted by the IRS with instructions to oblige barterers to pay income tax on the value of the trade. After a bit of eye-rolling, people continued the tax-free, people-to-people trading.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/04/09-2

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You are advocating adopting the underground economy and I have no problems with people adopting the underground economy. Just don't come here whining about your lack of social services since you did not want to pay for them from the underground.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[dreamdancer 0]

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You are advocating adopting the underground economy and I have no problems with people adopting the underground economy. Just don't come here whining about your lack of social services since you did not want to pay for them from the underground.

people don't need bankers to create their own money

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[CanuckInUSA 0]

That's fine, I will not argue that people need banks to create a self sufficient barter systems. Just don't go whining about this or that poor state run social service if you are not willing to pay for them.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[dreamdancer 0]

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>so your sources say that the minimum wage is both inflationary and causes
>unemployment - which is odd because that is what the business community
>said would happen in the uk when a minimum wage was first proposed. but
>neither happened.

From a study of UK employment after 1999:

==========
Since the introduction of a national minimum wage in the UK in 1999, its effects on employment were subject to extensive research and observation by the Low Pay Commission. The Low Pay Commission found that, rather than make employees redundant, employers have reduced their rate of hiring, reduced staff hours, and increased prices.
==========

D'oh!

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The UK minimum wage is set to increase as of today, leaving around one million employees nationwide with a statutory pay increase as a result. Additionally entitlement to annual leave has also increased as of today, as part of an ongoing reform of employment law and benchmark employment standards.

The full rate for minimum wage has increased from £5.35 an hour to £5.52 an hour, leaving the average minimum wage earner with an extra £7 a week in pay. Meanwhile the rate for 18-21 year old employees has increased to £4.60 from £4.44, and 16-17 year olds will see a rise of £0.10 an hour to £3.40 at statutory minimum.

Also in force as of today is the requirement to give 24 days a year in annual leave to full time employees, as opposed to the previous minimum of just 20. This will continue to rise incrementally to 28 days in 2009, to bring the UK in line with conditions elsewhere in Europe.

http://www.investmentmarkets.co.uk/20071001-987.html

and, at the same time...

Unemployment in the United Kingdom economy has declined over the second quarter of this year, according to official figures released today.

Unemployment figures, measured in terms of claimants of state unemployment benefit, have shown a consistent downward trend of late, reflecting increasing job opportunities for those previously reliant on government hand outs.

The figures, released by the Office for National Statistics, highlighted a fall over 45,000 in unemployment figures for the period ended June, taking the overall unemployment figure to 1.65 million.

Whilst the number of unemployed workers was down, average salaries increased by just 3.3% over the period, highlighting the lack of inflationary pressures within the economy from another angle.

The low wage inflation of the second quarter sets a record slow growth since 2003, highlighting yet again the impact of successive interest rate rises on the buoyant UK economy.

Analysts have predicted that today’s figures could be used as further reassurance of maintaining interest rates at 5.75% for another month.

With inflation apparently under wraps, analysts have gone from predicting a certain rise in rates to seeing any move as highly unlikely.

Redundancy has also fallen to the lowest level since 1995, showing just 4.8 per thousand employees losing their jobs over the second quarter of the year.***

http://www.investmentmarkets.co.uk/20070815-621.html

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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That's fine, I will not argue that people need banks to create a self sufficient barter system. Just don't go whining about this or that poor state run social service if you are not willing to pay for them.

you can half see the problem - but won't grasp the solution. remember that money is only a temporary 'bodge' until the market can barter efficiently without it. you have to see where money is evolving next - not pine after a useless gold standard (or any other standard). the peak of the banking money wave is not here yet - china is halfway gobbled up so not too long now

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[rhaig 0]

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how about this to break away from the bankers...

***Under the current economic circumstances, it is more urgent than ever that we shun the limiting beliefs we may have about our power to acquire what we need and look beyond our wallets for other forms of currency.
.....

http://www.opencurrency.com/

been keeping an eye on this... don't have any yet, but keeping an eye on what happens around it.

--
Rob

[kallend 2,032]

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You are advocating adopting the underground economy and I have no problems with people adopting the underground economy. Just don't come here whining about your lack of social services since you did not want to pay for them from the underground.

people don't need bankers to create their own money

As noted by Douglas Adams, we could always use leaves for currency.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[dreamdancer 0]

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You are advocating adopting the underground economy and I have no problems with people adopting the underground economy. Just don't come here whining about your lack of social services since you did not want to pay for them from the underground.

people don't need bankers to create their own money

As noted by Douglas Adams, we could always use leaves for currency.

or tiny little electronic digits living in our computers

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[tkhayes 348]

actually, most of us would rather see EVERYONE pay their fair share of taxes, not just the rich. That, combined with military budget cuts you so flatly deny in other threads would make any difference ot the country, would pay for the deficit and health care and provide better education for our people.

Omigod....what am I thinking? Come up with programs that help the American people and then devise a clever tax structure to help pay for it????

How radical - -

[mnealtx 0]

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actually, most of us would rather see EVERYONE pay their fair share of taxes, not just the rich. That, combined with military budget cuts you so flatly deny in other threads would make any difference ot the country, would pay for the deficit and health care and provide better education for our people.

Omigod....what am I thinking? Come up with programs that help the American people and then devise a clever tax structure to help pay for it????

How radical - -

Sure, let's cut the military by 50%. That gives us about three quarters of a million servicemembers and several million MORE people from the various manufacturers and services that support the military and the jobs lost in the base communities, all on unemployment and food stamps.

HUGE cut in revenues recieved by fed.gov from all the above through the various business and income taxes, and a huge DRAIN on fed.gov through unemployment/food stamps/etc.

Wow, you're ABSOLUTELY right, tk - what a BRILLIANT idea to cut the military. I mean, what the hell - there was only an increase of 18k in unemployment claims last week, why NOT add a few million to it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 348]

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Sure, let's cut the military by 50%. That gives us about three quarters of a million servicemembers and several million MORE people from the various manufacturers and services that support the military and the jobs lost in the base communities, all on unemployment and food stamps.

So what you are saying is that people who leave the military end up on food stamps. That the military never educates or trains people in real-life jobs and that they stop serving any function after retirement. (?)

I mean that MUST be true - I have NEVER met a CEO, a plumber, an electrician, an IT guy, a skydiving instructor, a teacher, a pilot, a bus driver, a carpenter who was previously in the military - they simply don't exist......

stop being ridiculous,

[mnealtx 0]

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Sure, let's cut the military by 50%. That gives us about three quarters of a million servicemembers and several million MORE people from the various manufacturers and services that support the military and the jobs lost in the base communities, all on unemployment and food stamps.

So what you are saying is that people who leave the military end up on food stamps.

There's people in the military NOW that are on food stamps.

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That the military never educates or trains people in real-life jobs and that they stop serving any function after retirement. (?)

I mean that MUST be true - I have NEVER met a CEO, a plumber, an electrician, an IT guy, a skydiving instructor, a teacher, a pilot, a bus driver, a carpenter who was previously in the military - they simply don't exist......

Didn't make that claim, but you're right - I mean, with all those employers offering signing bonuses at hire since they can't find enough applicants to fill the positions, I'm POSITIVE they'll be snapped right up....

Wait, they're not? Jobs aren't available? Well, I'll be damned...and here I thought Obama's magic unicorns were gonna poop skittles and piss whiskey and everyone was gonna have jobs and free healthcare.

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stop being ridiculous,

I'll guarantee you that my description of the effect is a HELL of a lot closer to reality than yours.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

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Sure, let's cut the military by 50%. That gives us ..... (discussion about how the military is a 'stimulus' plan rather than a defense)

Mike - that was a very liberal argument you just made. The military's job is defense, not a jobs program.

Yes, let's cut the military 50%, let's ALSO cut social welfare 50% too. Just cutting dramatically in those two areas would better size the federal government's responsibilities down to a reasonable level - it would be a good 'start'.

The military is way too big. And social issues should be handled locally, not federally.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,032]

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Sure, let's cut the military by 50%. That gives us ..... (discussion about how the military is a 'stimulus' plan rather than a defense)

Mike - that was a very liberal argument you just made. The military's job is defense, not a jobs program.

Yes, let's cut the military 50%, let's ALSO cut social welfare 50% too. Just cutting dramatically in those two areas would better size the federal government's responsibilities down to a reasonable level - it would be a good 'start'.

The military is way too big. And social issues should be handled locally, not federally.

Occasionally some sense comes out of Iowa.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[justinb138 0]

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Jobs aren't available? Well, I'll be damned...and here I thought Obama's magic unicorns were gonna poop skittles and piss whiskey and everyone was gonna have jobs and free healthcare.

Nice.

[kallend 2,032]

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Jobs aren't available? Well, I'll be damned...and here I thought Obama's magic unicorns were gonna poop skittles and piss whiskey and everyone was gonna have jobs and free healthcare.

Nice.

Mike's problem is that he subscribes to the old GOP double standard. It took Saint Ronald Reagan 22 months to get out of the "Carter" recession. From a high of 10.8% in December 1982 (already a whole year after St. Ron's election), unemployment gradually improved until it fell to 7.2% in Nov 1984. Yet Mike criticizes Obama for what is a clearly faster, superior performance.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Jobs aren't available? Well, I'll be damned...and here I thought Obama's magic unicorns were gonna poop skittles and piss whiskey and everyone was gonna have jobs and free healthcare.

Nice.

Mike's problem is that he subscribes to the old GOP double standard. It took Saint Ronald Reagan 22 months to get out of the "Carter" recession. From a high of 10.8% in December 1982 (already a whole year after St. Ron's election), unemployment gradually improved until it fell to 7.2% in Nov 1984. Yet Mike criticizes Obama for what is a clearly faster, superior performance.

Wrong yet again, perfesser....but I'm sure you'll continue to believe your own line of bullshit.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[airdvr 210]

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clearly faster, superior performance

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Lucky... 0]

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If a business cannot simply pass along its new labor costs, it must somehow absorb them--by eliminating workers rendered unproductive by the new minimum wage,

Or perhaps they can make cuts elswhere, like in the corporate boss compensation. If one producer does this, the rest have to follow suit or go out of business.

[Lucky... 0]

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actually, most of us would rather see EVERYONE pay their fair share of taxes, not just the rich. That, combined with military budget cuts you so flatly deny in other threads would make any difference ot the country, would pay for the deficit and health care and provide better education for our people.

Omigod....what am I thinking? Come up with programs that help the American people and then devise a clever tax structure to help pay for it????

How radical - -

[Lucky... 0]

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Politicians say one thing and do the other. They are just self serving puppets, every last one of them.

Really? Then how did Clinton's tax increase serve him? Seems like it cost him. The politician maggots who selve-serve are generally wearing and R by their name. It does no good to Obama to help poor people, yet he is. With your hero that just left office, his cuts helped him personally. We could take that to this forum too, a guy like Kallend would be better off with a low tax system, yet he advocates enough taxes to pay for things. Your position makes no sense.