How Obamacare will really be paid for.

[rushmc 23]

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>that is not what you claimed yesterday?

I think it's cute when you get so mad you start doing the multiple-replies thing. "Dang, you know what I SHOULD have said to that guy . . . "

Any of you care to actually dispute the article? Or are you too busy attacking the poster.

I am used to it

The article is well researched and footnoted

It is? Many of its cites seem to be to other Heritage stuff. Effectively saying "it is so because previously we said it was so."

Same shit you pull when the rare occurrence of you actually stating happens.

Look at the links

And still - no reply to this that disputes the article. There does seem to be a lot of stammering and sidestepping though. Imagine that.

Same reason the folks on the right don't bother disputing articles cut and pasted from the Huffington Post. The source is biased, its opinions are biased.

Too well researched for you to dispute

I expect the same from you with the follow up

Dispute a couple of points sir

Show where they are telling less than the truth sir

Well?

You'll wait as long as dreamdancer waits for you to dispute stuff he's quoted from commondreams and alternet.

You guys dismiss his posts on account of the sources he uses, but expect your biased sources to be taken seriously.

Sauce for the goose IS sauce for the gander

Translation

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You cant refute the info so you avoid discussing it and attack the source and the poster

It supports your position that citizens do not yet pay enough in taxes so what ever it takes to get us there is a good thing


That should help you get started if you dare

Yes
Sauce for the goose IS sauce for the gander

Didnt know you like opinion sites better than sourced research sites

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

And I will say it yet again, Obamacare has NEVER been about health care, It is about control. Saying it would control costs have been called bull shit from the begining. As more about the "bill" is studied the more troubling this far reaching bill becomes

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100423/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_law_costs


From AP found on Yahoonews

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WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama's health care overhaul law is getting a mixed verdict in the first comprehensive look by neutral experts: More Americans will be covered, but costs are also going up.

Economic experts at the Health and Human Services Department concluded in a report issued Thursday that the health care remake will achieve Obama's aim of expanding health insurance — adding 34 million to the coverage rolls.

But the analysis also found that the law falls short of the president's twin goal of controlling runaway costs, raising projected spending by about 1 percent over 10 years. That increase could get bigger, since Medicare cuts in the law may be unrealistic and unsustainable, the report warned.

It's a worrisome assessment for Democrats.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Add to all of this the VAT discussion and the loss of any middle income tax cut and the true Dem agenda is showing its ugly face.

(Not saying the R's have done much, if any better lately)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tr027 0]

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And I will say it yet again, Obamacare has NEVER been about health care, It is about control. Saying it would control costs have been called bull shit from the begining. As more about the "bill" is studied the more troubling this far reaching bill becomes

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100423/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_law_costs

Of course.. the American people have been taken to the cleaners yet again. But don't worry, it'll happen YET again with this new financial misregulation BS to create a whole new agency...of course.. it'll keep happening till enough people start seeing a pattern.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[rushmc 23]

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And I will say it yet again, Obamacare has NEVER been about health care, It is about control. Saying it would control costs have been called bull shit from the begining. As more about the "bill" is studied the more troubling this far reaching bill becomes

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100423/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_law_costs

Of course.. the American people have been taken to the cleaners yet again. But don't worry, it'll happen YET again with this new financial misregulation BS to create a whole new agency...of course.. it'll keep happening till enough people start seeing a pattern.

Ya
That financial "reform" bill basically put the tax payer on the hook to insure all financial type insttitutions and says congress can then determin who fails and who doesnt

No one seems to want to remember that this same type attitutude caused the mortgage melt down

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

So much for the middle class tax cuts.

(via a "penalty" for not following a gov order to buy something) This is pure bull sht that I hope the courts toss soon

From todays Washington Times found on NewsMax

***3 Million in Middle Class to Pay Health Law Penalty
Friday, 23 Apr 2010 09:07 AM Article Font Size
By: Sean Lengell

Some 3 million middle-class Americans will be required to pay a penalty for not getting health insurance under the Obama administration's new health care law, raising questions about the president's willingness to break a campaign promise by increasing taxes on some families earning less than $250,000.

A Congressional Budget Office analysis released Thursday said the average cost of the penalty will be slightly more than $1,000 apiece in 2016.

Republicans chided the Obama administration for hurting middle-class Americans.

"The president and his supporters in Congress are celebrating the benefits of health reform, but they also have an obligation to acknowledge the other side of the coin," said Sen. Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, the top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee. "There's a price for not participating, and people will pay it."

Mr. Grassley added that the penalty is nothing more than a tax and breaks the president's campaign pledge not to raise taxes for those making less than $250,000 a year.

But Rep. Pete Stark, California Democrat and chairman of the House Ways and Means health subcommittee, said Republicans are exaggerating the extent of the penalty, adding that out of a population of 277 million people less than 1.5 percent will pay this assessment in 2016.

"Americans can opt to pay the penalty rather than purchase health insurance, but it is their choice," Mr. Stark said. "There is no penalty for people whose insurance would cost more than 8 percent of their income."

Democrats argue that the mandate and the penalties are necessary parts of a massive overhaul designed to expand coverage to millions who now lack it.

"The new law will make health insurance affordable for everyone, and CBO's analysis confirms that the vast majority of uninsured Americans will find health care affordable and choose to participate," said White House spokesman Nick Papas.

About 95 percent of Americans will have coverage under this law in 2016, compared with 83 percent today, Mr. Stark said.

"If Republicans really cared about expanding health coverage, they would have worked with us on health reform or introduced a bill that would have reduced the number of uninsured," he said.

The health care reform legislation, signed into law by President Obama last month, requires that most U.S. residents obtain health insurance and imposes a financial penalty for being uninsured.

Almost 4 million total Americans will have to pay the penalty when the plan is implemented in 2016. About 3 million of those people will have incomes below $59,000 for individuals and $120,000 for families of four, the CBO says. Another 900,000 people who must pay the fine will have higher incomes.

Americans who don't get qualified health insurance will be required to pay penalties starting in 2014, unless they are exempt because of low income or religious beliefs, or because they are members of American Indian tribes. The penalties will be fully phased in by 2016.

The CBO estimates that about 21 million non-elderly residents will be uninsured in 2016 but that the majority of them will not be subject to the penalty.

The government will collect about $4 billion a year in fines from 2017 through 2019, the report says.

Attorneys general in more than a dozen states are working to challenge the mandate in federal court as unconstitutional.

© Copyright 2010 The Washington Times, LLC

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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new financial misregulation BS to create a whole new agency...of course.. it'll keep happening till enough people start seeing a pattern.

Here's a neat trick to avoid 'ever having to bailout the financial sector again'...


Don't do it next time

This is really just a gambit by the government to set up expectations that they can arbitrarily decide to shut down/take over any industry by designating it as "too big to fail"

This can be done for power, or just out of spite, or just to get votes whenever one feels like it.

Old politics - create a fake issue and talk alot about it and issue impotent new laws that can't possibly be enforced, hold a lot of passionate debates, and claim you did something - get votes

New politics - create a scapegoat - devastate the industry and the economy - raise taxes - get votes

see? the New politics is much shorter to describe. Therefore it's more efficient.

I suspect a couple people here are dancing in the streets in joy as we navigate to this new direction

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I think people overthink this way too much. I think it really is much simpler.

The financial crisis was due to a lack of regulation and oversight. So when shit hit the fan, the pendulum swung to the other side, which is where it is now.

Nothing sinister, just basic human nature. The same thing parents do with their kids. They give them more and more freedom, then when they realized they fucked up, they curtail all their kids' freedom.

[billvon 2,991]

>So when shit hit the fan, the pendulum swung to the other side, which
>is where it is now.

Agreed. And in about a decade, the republicans will regain control during yet another economic downturn, and the rallying cry will be "END THE OBAMA NANNY STATE!" and they'll repeal all the banking industry protections. And the cycle will repeat.

[tr027 0]

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The financial crisis was due to a lack of regulation and oversight.

I'd like to think there are enough Americans that understand that is NOT the case, but probably they just swallow that same line of propaganda from the govt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74HXUV98848&playnext_from=TL&videos=fAl6RLuUYYk

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Much stricter oversight and regulation in the Canadian financial system made a drastic difference in the severity of the current financial crisis. Specifically the stricter rules on mortgages.

Do you have a youtube for that explanation too?

[tr027 0]

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Much stricter oversight and regulation in the Canadian financial system made a drastic difference in the severity of the current financial crisis. Specifically the stricter rules on mortgages.

Do you have a youtube for that explanation too?

Don't need one but it'd be simple to make one that repeats "more government regulations will fix everything"; we don't have nearly enough already. Good luck with that.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[rehmwa 2]

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Nothing sinister, just basic human nature.

though I agree with you in general, I think assuming that "basic human nature" in politics is, by default, SINISTER

makes for more enjoyable posting


As for this specific one? I'm still not sure, there seems to be a very concerted effort to take over all the major/key industries - I think that's not an overreaction to any particular situation. I think that's a genuine political philosophy being pushed by those in power right now - while they still can.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Have you ever thought there might be a difference between more and better?

Better regulation made a huge difference in Canada.

(and that is true even if it isn't on youtube)

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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As for this specific one? I'm still not sure, there seems to be a very concerted effort to take over all the major/key industries - I think that's not an overreaction to any particular situation.

I don't see that. Which other industries are being taken over?

The lack of good regulation in the financial system brought the US to near total collapse. I am convinced that without intervention, the US would have been ruined (and with it many other nations). I think it is pretty understandable there is a drive to better regulate. Since basic human nature would swing the pendulum to the other extreme, you will have to deal with over-regulation for a while.

Like when your mom catches you with your hand in the cookie jar.....then you have to live without cookies for a while.

[tr027 0]

The crux of the misunderstanding is you feel the crisis was caused by private industry (hence the need for "better" regulation) while I maintain it was caused by the people making the rules. Canada most likely was a different case altogether where perhaps private industry was at fault, possibly.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[rehmwa 2]

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As for this specific one? I'm still not sure, there seems to be a very concerted effort to take over all the major/key industries - I think that's not an overreaction to any particular situation.

I don't see that. Which other industries are being taken over?

taken over, highly regulated for control vs quality, establishing influence up to the point of essentially controlling it completely, etc etc?

US so far?

Auto-industry (one of the biggest employer industries)
banks (the money)
energy (energy)
healthcare (healthcare)

pretty much the foundation of the economy and society - very precise targeting for a massive increase in government control of the state of the individual. Not protection and support.....control.

If one were to be protecting individual freedoms, these are the very industries that we'd want very light hands on, not a tighter stranglehold.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I maintain it was caused by the people making the rules.

I maintain the same.

Since they did a piss poor job making rules, the financial system was brought to ruin. Private industry just did what it always does....make as much money as quickly as possible.

[rehmwa 2]

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I maintain it was caused by the people making the rules.

I maintain the same.

Since they did a piss poor job making rules, the financial system was brought to ruin. Private industry just did what it always does....make as much money as quickly as possible.

the government made the rules that just about forced private industry to make those decisions. So the answer is less government, not more (I said less, not zero - reference the whole 'pendulum' discussion.....)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 23]

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I think people overthink this way too much. I think it really is much simpler.

The financial crisis was due to a lack of regulation and oversight. So when shit hit the fan, the pendulum swung to the other side, which is where it is now.

Nothing sinister, just basic human nature. The same thing parents do with their kids. They give them more and more freedom, then when they realized they fucked up, they curtail all their kids' freedom.

Bull shit
the meltdown is directly attributable to gov policies

They (the gov) need to CYA by blaming the private sector

Can the private sector shoulder some blame? Hell yes, but they did what they were told to do

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If one were to be protecting individual freedoms, these are the very industries that we'd want very light hands on, not a tighter stranglehold.

Except that those very light hands almost completely destroyed you. Almost all those industries have shown that if left to their own regulation would be detrimental to a very large part of the population. Or would actually completely destroy the country.

[rehmwa 2]

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If one were to be protecting individual freedoms, these are the very industries that we'd want very light hands on, not a tighter stranglehold.

Except that those very light hands almost completely destroyed you. Almost all those industries have shown that if left to their own regulation would be detrimental to a very large part of the population. Or would actually completely destroy the country.

that's not fact, that's opinion - there's an equally sized contingent that believes just the opposite

seriously, you think regulation helps? Do you think that congress guaranteeing home loans encourages less risky loan giving/taking? Do you think passing laws "requiring" home loans be given to those that can't afford them makes for healthy business decisions?

do you think keeping failing car companies alive is good for the country long term?

you want examples for healthcare and energy policy too?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Can the private sector shoulder some blame? Hell yes, but they did what they were forced by laws passed by congress to do

clarification

and congress didn't do it for the people, they did it to cater to specific voter demographics and to make PR points

that's the problem with Congress being in charge of huge industries - they don't do things for the health of the country - they do things based on popularity and simple (thus normally incorrect) opinions based, not of fact, but on popularity (and only what's popular with the very simpleminded loud mouth crowd, not even most of the people)

They see one wheel with a broken hub, but the other wheel gets maintenance instead because it works fine, but the village grease salesmen is screaming it's squeaking

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 23]

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Can the private sector shoulder some blame? Hell yes, but they did what they were forced by laws passed by congress to do

clarification

and congress didn't do it for the people, they did it to cater to specific voter demographics and to make PR points

that's the problem with Congress being in charge of huge industries - they don't do things for the health of the country - they do things based on popularity and simple (thus normally incorrect) opinions based, not of fact, but on popularity (and only what's popular with the very simpleminded loud mouth crowd, not even most of the people)

They see one wheel with a broken hub, but the other wheel gets maintenance instead because it works fine, but the village grease salesmen is screaming it's squeaking

Stated better than I did
Thanks

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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Stated better than I did
Thanks

what the heck are you talking about - that guy makes no sense

we aren't even talking about wagon wheels.... sheeesh

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants