How Obamacare will really be paid for.

[billvon 2,991]

>that's not fact, that's opinion - there's an equally sized contingent that
>believes just the opposite

Opinion backed by historical fact.

>seriously, you think regulation helps?

Good regulation helps, yes. Laws that require open accounting helps people decide whether companies are good investments or not, for example.

>you want examples for healthcare and energy policy too?

The EPA is a good example. Donora, PA is an example of how "industries have shown that if left to their own regulation would be detrimental to a very large part of the population." The EPA is an example of a regulatory agency that has prevented that from happening again.

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

The crux of the misunderstanding is you feel the crisis was caused by private industry (hence the need for "better" regulation) while I maintain it was caused by the people making the rules..

Which rules created credit default swaps? Which rules made Moodys give AAA ratings to junk? Which rules forced AIG to gamble on derivatives they didn't understand?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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seriously, you think regulation helps?

yes, Canada is proof.

Quote

Do you think that congress guaranteeing home loans encourages less risky loan giving/taking? Do you think passing laws "requiring" home loans be given to those that can't afford them makes for healthy business decisions?

No, but rules requiring minimum downpayments would. Rules on affordability would. Rules against financial instruments nobody understands and are almost completely unregulated....would.

There are three rules that would have prevented an immense amount of difficulty. (and quite frankly the first two would have largely prevented the need for the third in this case).

Quote

that's not fact, that's opinion - there's an equally sized contingent that believes just the opposite

I would love to see how those people think the failure of AIG would have played out.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

that's the problem with Congress being in charge of huge industries - they don't do things for the health of the country - they do things based on popularity and simple (thus normally incorrect) opinions based, not of fact, but on popularity (and only what's popular with the very simpleminded loud mouth crowd, not even most of the people)

And if you leave industry in charge of itself, they will do anything possible to make the largest amount of money in the shortest amount of time, with total disregard for the country or the society they do business in.

So, who then should do the regulation?

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

So, who then should do the regulation?

you and Billvon

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,991]

>you and Billvon

My first act as Grand Regulator shall be to ban hardboiled eggs for any skydivers planning on jumping the next day.

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

>you and Billvon

My first act as Grand Regulator shall be to ban hardboiled eggs for any skydivers planning on jumping the next day.

Yeah, look what hard boiled eggs did to this guy.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>you and Billvon

My first act as Grand Regulator shall be to ban hardboiled eggs for any skydivers planning on jumping the next day.

so far so good - approval rating is way up

however, the egg lobby is pissed and asking for subsidies now - this industry is too big to fail

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

>you and Billvon

My first act as Grand Regulator shall be to ban hardboiled eggs for any skydivers planning on jumping the next day.

Yeah, look what hard boiled eggs did to this guy.

I thought that is what happened to mind on liberalism

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,991]

>however, the egg lobby is pissed and asking for subsidies now - this
>industry is too big to fail

No problem. I'll just suggest that terrorists eat eggs, and rename egg substitute to Freedom Breakfast Mix. No one will dare support the egg industry after that.

[Bolas 5]

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I think people overthink this way too much. I think it really is much simpler.

The financial crisis was due to a lack of regulation and oversight. So when shit hit the fan, the pendulum swung to the other side, which is where it is now.

Nothing sinister, just basic human nature. The same thing parents do with their kids. They give them more and more freedom, then when they realized they fucked up, they curtail all their kids' freedom.

A better analogy:

The kid acts up, the parents looks the other way.

The kid gets in trouble, the parents bail them out again and again.

The kid learns there is no negative consequence to their actions so they do more and more dangerous and wrong things. The parents keep cleaning it up.

It's not a freedom thing, it's an accountability thing.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,991]

>The kid gets in trouble, the parents bail them out again and again.

Yep. But if those parents really, honestly think the kid would be crippled for life unless they help, most parents have a very hard time just letting it happen. Sure, he might learn not to play in the street by letting the truck hit him - but that's a tough call to make.

[Bolas 5]

Quote

>The kid gets in trouble, the parents bail them out again and again.

Yep. But if those parents really, honestly think the kid would be crippled for life unless they help, most parents have a very hard time just letting it happen. Sure, he might learn not to play in the street by letting the truck hit him - but that's a tough call to make.

But there still needs to be some consequence.

"I told you not to play in the street. You're grounded." vs.
"I told you not to play in the street. Don't do it again." over and over...

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

>The kid gets in trouble, the parents bail them out again and again.

Yep. But if those parents really, honestly think the kid would be crippled for life unless they help, most parents have a very hard time just letting it happen. Sure, he might learn not to play in the street by letting the truck hit him - but that's a tough call to make.

But there still needs to be some consequence.

"I told you not to play in the street. You're grounded." vs.
"I told you not to play in the street. Don't do it again." over and over...

Well, Billvon's example is interesting and exactly what the current admin is doing "IT'S A FREAKIN' EMERGENCY, HURRY!,,,HURRY! VOTE FOR THE BILL NOW BEFORE DISASTER HAPPENS. YOU HAVE NO TIME TO READ IT, UNDERSTAND IT, OR EXPLAIN IT TO THE CITIZENS....just vote for it now"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 220]

About 9 years later - where are we now?

[gowlerk 2,193]

4 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

About 9 years later - where are we now?

Still struggling with the concept of making health care available to everyone. Even those who some think don't deserve it and can't pay for it. And still paying stupid amounts of money to insurance companies to administer and ration care. Still allowing drug companies look for inventive ways of raping desperate people. Who knew it could be so complicated?

[kallend 2,027]

5 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

About 9 years later - where are we now?

The USA still has poorer health outcomes overall than some 40 countries that have universal healthcare.  But the "system" here is excellent if you are in the 0.1%

[turtlespeed 220]

12 hours ago, kallend said:

The USA still has poorer health outcomes overall than some 40 countries that have universal healthcare.  But the "system" here is excellent if you are in the 0.1%

I'm glad to know that you are receiving excellent healthcare through the system, then.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

12 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

I'm glad to know that you are receiving excellent healthcare through the system, then.

If American Conservatives have taught me one thing, it is that those who are too poor to afford something are simply too lazy to work for it.

[tkhayes 348]

On 4/8/2010 at 1:09 PM, rushmc said:

From Heritage. Source links below


 

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

simple enough solution.  Single Payer Universal healthcare for all. paid for through the tax base by everyone, and the govt controls the pricing, payments, drug prices.  Legislated and done.

[tkhayes 348]

On 4/8/2010 at 1:09 PM, rushmc said:

From Heritage. Source links below


 

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

simple enough solution.  Single Payer Universal healthcare for all. paid for through the tax base by everyone, and the govt controls the pricing, payments, drug prices.  Legislated and done.