AZ Immigration Bill Invites Racial Profiling of US Citizens

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

A couple of weeks ago a guy came in to pay a ticket for an ordinance violation. All he had was one of these consulate cards, and ... he was told that wasn't acceptable ID

OK, let me get this straight: in this age when so many people routinely scofflaw their tickets, and local governments are crying for revenue, this guy actually obeyed a citation and showed up money-in-hand ready to fork it over, and he was turned away? Sighh. There's something wrong with that picture, too.

[masterrig 1]

You bet! The Mexican government issues information to 'potential' illegals on what to take with them, best times of travel and etc. to help them on their journey to the U.S.


Chuck

[GeorgiaDon 362]

Quote

OK, let me get this straight: in this age when so many people routinely scofflaw their tickets, and local governments are crying for revenue, this guy actually obeyed a citation and showed up money-in-hand ready to fork it over, and he was turned away? Unimpressed Sighh. There's something wrong with that picture, too.

Hi Andy,

The guy showed up to pay his ticket because he had to in order to reclaim his dog, which had been impounded as it was running loose (a violation of county ordinances) and had bitten a kid who was waiting for his school bus. As the dog had no rabies vaccination (a violation of a state law) the kid is looking at several thousand dollars worth of post-exposure rabies shots. I'd say there's something wrong with that picture.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[GeorgiaDon 362]

Quote

Why would it surprise you that a law firm would resort to sleazy tactics to make a buck?

I'm not surprised, just ticked off.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[masterrig 1]

If, this new law in Arizona is not found to be un-constitutional, Texasis looking to adopt a similar law.


Chuck

[GeorgiaDon 362]

No doubt, and there will be irresistible pressure for other states to follow suit. Yet another example of Americans surrendering freedom in a knee-jerk response to the political need to look like something is being done. What fourth amendment? That's so 18th century!

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[masterrig 1]

This country has a real problem... a drug problem and it's causing cartels in Mexico to wage war over smuggling routes and it's spilling over into the U.S. Yeah, I know! This is going to get the 'pro-legalizing dope' crowd all worked-up. We have to do something about it. As a result, Arizona took a stand. It's unfortunate that some folks might be inconvenienced by it but maybe a little 18th. or 19th. century thinking might be just what it takes.


Chuck

[SivaGanesha 2]

Quote

The guy showed up to pay his ticket because he had to in order to reclaim his dog, which had been impounded as it was running loose (a violation of county ordinances) and had bitten a kid who was waiting for his school bus. As the dog had no rabies vaccination (a violation of a state law) the kid is looking at several thousand dollars worth of post-exposure rabies shots. I'd say there's something wrong with that picture

Something still doesn't add up here.

Since the dog is or was at some point in the possession of the authorities, presumably it could have been tested for rabies.

If it had rabies it presumably would not have been released even with the payment of a fine.

If it did not have rabies presumably the kid would not need rabies shots.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[GeorgiaDon 362]

SOP for such cases is quarantine (at Animal Control) for 30 days with observation for symptoms. The alternative is testing of course, but that requires removing the brain and sending it to a state lab for testing. As rabies is a relatively slow-growing virus plaque assays and subsequent Western blotting etc takes significantly longer than 30 days. There is only the one lab in the state that is certified to deal with rabies (requires a BSL3 lab), and they are responsible for testing for many pathogens, so even a preliminary PCR assay takes weeks. Either way, if you take a wait and see attitude (which you can choose to do) and the animal is infected, you will have lost a significant amount of time and it may be too late to benefit from post-exposure vaccination. Once the virus enters nerves it is not accessible to antibodies or immune cells, and will ultimately and inevitably travel up the nerve to the central nervous system. Once it reaches the brain it's game over, but your fate is sealed as soon as it gets into even peripheral nerves. The only protection is to generate a neutralizing antibody titer before that happens, so time is of the essence.

You might wonder why quarantine dogs instead of testing them directly in every bite case involving an unvaccinated dog. Firstly, if the dog is infected it will almost certainly show typical symptoms in less than 30 days, so you'll have a good idea if the dog is infected or not faster than if you wait for the lab tests. Secondly, every animal sent for testing costs the county several hundred dollars, so if you had a policy of testing every animal you'd be looking at tens of thousands of $$/yr. So, only dogs that show symptoms are sent for confirmatory testing.

Hope this helps.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Casurf1978 0]

So you're okay with giving up some of your basic civil rights for a little sense of security? If so, which ones should we give up? Would you be okay with a cop pulling you over and asking for proof of citizenship and then being detained until proof was provided.

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

So you're okay with giving up some of your basic civil rights for a little sense of security? If so, which ones should we give up? Would you be okay with a cop pulling you over and asking for proof of citizenship and then being detained until proof was provided.

You realize this already happens, right? Up until now they just peak in your car for some reason. I'm guessing they are checking to see if anyone looks dark skinned and scared. Now they have the right to ask for an ID. Big change...

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[likearock 2]

Quote

Quote

So you're okay with giving up some of your basic civil rights for a little sense of security? If so, which ones should we give up? Would you be okay with a cop pulling you over and asking for proof of citizenship and then being detained until proof was provided.

You realize this already happens, right? Up until now they just peak in your car for some reason. I'm guessing they are checking to see if anyone looks dark skinned and scared. Now they have the right to ask for an ID. Big change...

I suppose it's not such a big change if you happen to be light skinned.

[wmw999 2,447]

I know if I were an illegal immigrant in Arizona, I'd probably start wearing a turban, or having someone in the car wear a headscarf. Then we'd all look like middle-easterners instead, and be less likely to be stopped.

Or they could just go around in whiteface makeup.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[masterrig 1]

Sometimes in life, you find you might have to give something up for a greater goal. Till the problem is solved we may have to go along with some things we may not like. One problem with a good portion of our society is, we're spoiled. Think about it! Would you rather sit-back with a false feeling of security and just let violent gangs and drug cartels (just an example) slowly take-over this country just so you don't have to show a particular document? Every time I register my vehicles, I have to show proof of insurance. Whenever I vote, I have to show proof of who I am. In one way or another, I've had to do that at some time or another, all my life. No big deal, to me. Also, I don't foresee a time I'd be 'detained'... I've got nothing to hide.


Chuck


Chuck

[DanG 1]

Quote

Also, I don't foresee a time I'd be 'detained'

Could that be because you are white?

- Dan G

[masterrig 1]

Unfortunately, over 12-million illegals have made it tough on legals. To me, the legals should be madder than hell at them. Doesn't seem to work that way.


Chuck

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Unfortunately, over 12-million illegals have made it tough on legals. To me, the legals should be madder than hell at them. Doesn't seem to work that way.


Chuck

Lots of the illegals are Polish, Irish, Croatian, English, Scottish, Latvian, Ukranian etc, who, being Caucasian, are never stopped anyway.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

Sometimes in life, you find you might have to give something up for a greater goal. Till the problem is solved we may have to go along with some things we may not like. One problem with a good portion of our society is, we're spoiled. Think about it! Would you rather sit-back with a false feeling of security and just let violent gangs and drug cartels (just an example) slowly take-over this country just so you don't have to show a particular document? Every time I register my vehicles, I have to show proof of insurance. Whenever I vote, I have to show proof of who I am. In one way or another, I've had to do that at some time or another, all my life. No big deal, to me. Also, I don't foresee a time I'd be 'detained'... I've got nothing to hide.

I know it's not your intent, but the net effect of what you say is to condone institutionalized racism. Plain and simple.

In the criminal justice world, it's an open secret that people are stopped for "DWB violations" - DWB meaning "Driving While Black". I guess in the southern border states the "B" stands for "Brown" and is official policy.

If the US Constitution is to mean a damn, it must be honored in practice, all the time. Selectively honoring it in the breach is not honoring it at all. Maybe some want the United States to be that way, but I do not.

[rhaig 0]

Quote

Quote

Unfortunately, over 12-million illegals have made it tough on legals. To me, the legals should be madder than hell at them. Doesn't seem to work that way.


Chuck

Lots of the illegals are Polish, Irish, Croatian, English, Scottish, Latvian, Ukranian etc, who, being Caucasian, are never stopped anyway.

Likely what's going on now is re-training (likely a 15min briefing or some shit like that) in AZ PD's over what is "reasonable suspicion". This law will open them up to lawsuits every time they stop someone who is an American citizen. I'm sure at some level, they know this.

--
Rob

[masterrig 1]

Quote

Quote

Unfortunately, over 12-million illegals have made it tough on legals. To me, the legals should be madder than hell at them. Doesn't seem to work that way.


Chuck

Lots of the illegals are Polish, Irish, Croatian, English, Scottish, Latvian, Ukranian etc, who, being Caucasian, are never stopped anyway.

I'm trying to use a little 'common sense' here in regard to a problem we have with a large number of people coming to or already in this country who do not have the best intentions for this country and they all just happen to be of another 'color'. I'm sorry that it's come to this but the reality of it is, it's become a problem. We're getting U.S. citizens murdered on our soil by illegals. I'm not a racist and have no intention of being one. When I hear directly from Hispanics who are legally here, complaining about the problem... we've got a problem. I'm not making this stuff up, it's happening and a lot of folks are getting pretty nervous about it.


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

Quote

Quote

Sometimes in life, you find you might have to give something up for a greater goal. Till the problem is solved we may have to go along with some things we may not like. One problem with a good portion of our society is, we're spoiled. Think about it! Would you rather sit-back with a false feeling of security and just let violent gangs and drug cartels (just an example) slowly take-over this country just so you don't have to show a particular document? Every time I register my vehicles, I have to show proof of insurance. Whenever I vote, I have to show proof of who I am. In one way or another, I've had to do that at some time or another, all my life. No big deal, to me. Also, I don't foresee a time I'd be 'detained'... I've got nothing to hide.

I know it's not your intent, but the net effect of what you say is to condone institutionalized racism. Plain and simple.

In the criminal justice world, it's an open secret that people are stopped for "DWB violations" - DWB meaning "Driving While Black". I guess in the southern border states the "B" stands for "Brown" and is official policy.

If the US Constitution is to mean a damn, it must be honored in practice, all the time. Selectively honoring it in the breach is not honoring it at all. Maybe some want the United States to be that way, but I do not.

I live in a County where the population is a majority of Hispanic people. We have several 'old' families who settled this area. We all get along great. I've talked with these folks about the situation on our border and they want something done about it, too. They aren't a bunch of radicals, just hard working folks who are tired of the problem. They get their homes and ranches broken into just like the white folks. They are interested in how the Arizona law 'shakes-out'.


Chuck

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

I live in a County where the population is a majority of Hispanic people. We have several 'old' families who settled this area. We all get along great. I've talked with these folks about the situation on our border and they want something done about it, too. They aren't a bunch of radicals, just hard working folks who are tired of the problem. They get their homes and ranches broken into just like the white folks. They are interested in how the Arizona law 'shakes-out'.

It must be mortifying for decent, law-abiding, ethnic-Mexican, American citizens like your good neighbors to see what criminals from Mexico are doing to the the US border areas where their families have settled. As you well know, it wasn't easy being German-American during WWI, or Japanese-American during WWII. Hasn't been too pleasant being an Arab-American after 9/11, either.

I'm sure your average Chicano American neighbor partly thinks that he's willing to tolerate anything over the short term to make the problem (and thus his mortification) stop. But I assure you that there's another part inside him, perhaps not openly revealed to his Anglo neighbors, that finds it utterly galling that he is far more likely to be stopped on the street and ID'd than you are for no other reason than because he's a "spic". And that's the kind of hurt that lasts a long, long time.

[billvon 2,994]

>Sometimes in life, you find you might have to give something up for
> a greater goal.

Hmm, you're right. For example, you could give up your guns if it makes your neighbors a little safer. (Or perhaps just have a permit you have to get; you have to do that for cars anyway.) You could give up your right to free speech if that free speech emboldens the terrorists. After all, you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater now, so there are already restrictions. No big deal.

>Also, I don't foresee a time I'd be 'detained'... I've got nothing to hide.

Well, I'm sure you wouldn't mind being detained until they determine that, then.

[masterrig 1]

Quote

>Sometimes in life, you find you might have to give something up for
> a greater goal.

Hmm, you're right. For example, you could give up your guns if it makes your neighbors a little safer. (Or perhaps just have a permit you have to get; you have to do that for cars anyway.) You could give up your right to free speech if that free speech emboldens the terrorists. After all, you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater now, so there are already restrictions. No big deal.

>Also, I don't foresee a time I'd be 'detained'... I've got nothing to hide.

Well, I'm sure you wouldn't mind being detained until they determine that, then.

Might have to give-p 'rainbow stew' and free Bubble-Up, too.
It appears, I'm not the only one who sees a problem on our border. The border state governors are now, trying to get our U.s. government to assign National Guard Troops on our Southwest border to help Border Patrol Agents.


Chuck

[billvon 2,994]

>It appears, I'm not the only one who sees a problem on our border.

There's definitely a problem with our borders. But there's also a problem with gun crime, and the answer isn't "so get rid of guns."