Immigration Advocates Rising Up in Anger Across the Nation Over New Arizona Law

[billvon 3,079]

>To say that our economy "needs" them is to say that you are OK with a
>permanent underclass that has no legal recourse for the sake of lower
>prices.

That's sort of a silly thing to say. Many police departments need the income generated by tickets and fines; I am sure you would agree. That does not mean you are OK with drunk driving.

[sundevil777 102]

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>To say that our economy "needs" them is to say that you are OK with a
>permanent underclass that has no legal recourse for the sake of lower
>prices.

That's sort of a silly thing to say. Many police departments need the income generated by tickets and fines; I am sure you would agree. That does not mean you are OK with drunk driving.

Not silly. Not a contradiction, not incompatible.

You would be silly to assume I would agree to such a ridiculous conclusion. Local governments don't need the revenue from fines. They're just used to it. The reliance on such revenue can be broken. They would have to find some way to adapt. Our economy would adapt to the loss of cheap, victimized illegal alien labor. Part of that adaptation would be higher prices, part of the adaptation could be the use of more mechanization (perhaps even innovation - newly designed machines) in the fields, including the stimulus effect that would have for the companies that design and produce the equipment. Some of those companies operate in the USA.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,079]

> Local governments don't need the revenue from fines. They're just used to it.

Correct. Which means they would have to raise taxes etc. to compensate if they lost that revenue. In other words, they need it, or they need to replace it with something else.

>Our economy would adapt to the loss of cheap, victimized illegal alien
>labor. Part of that adaptation would be higher prices . . .

Also agreed. Which in turn would result in US farms shutting down as the Mexican farms became lower cost (relatively speaking.) Which would in turn impact shipping in the US, farm suppliers etc.

In both cases the reliance on that income (reliance being another word for "need") is an issue and would involve some pain to overcome. Perhaps that pain is worth it - but it is an issue which needs to be considered, as you have done in your post. Again, claiming that understanding that tradeoff means that you support drunk driving or illegal immigration is silly.

[dreamdancer 0]

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They do jobs that others won't. Beef and poultry slaughterhouses are the easiest example.

Legal american citizens would be more willing to do them if we weren't handing out free money so much.

like to the bankers
(but make the workers pay)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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Arizonans, like all Americans, have every right to be furious about Washington’s protracted and bipartisan failure to address the immigration stalemate. To be angry about illegal immigration is hardly tantamount to being a bigot. But the Arizona law expressing that anger is bigoted, and in a very particular way. The law dovetails seamlessly with the national “Take Back America” crusade that has attended the rise of Barack Obama and the accelerating demographic shift our first African-American president represents.

The crowd that wants Latinos to show their papers if there’s a “reasonable suspicion” of illegality is often the same crowd still demanding that the president produce a document proving his own citizenship. Lest there be any doubt of that confluence, Rush Limbaugh hammered the point home after Obama criticized Arizona’s action. “I can understand Obama being touchy on the subject of producing your papers,” he said. “Maybe he’s afraid somebody’s going to ask him for his.” Or, as Glenn Beck chimed in about the president last week: “What has he said that sounds like American?”

To the “Take Back America” right, the illegitimate Obama is Illegal Alien No. 1. It’s no surprise that of the 35 members of the Arizona House who voted for the immigration law (the entire Republican caucus), 31 voted soon after for another new law that would require all presidential candidates to produce birth certificates to qualify for inclusion on the state’s 2012 ballot. With the whole country now watching Arizona, that “birther” bill was abruptly yanked Thursday.

http://www.alternet.org/immigration/146703/if_only_the_problem_were_just_arizona%27s_bigoted_immigration_law%2C_but_it%27s_bigger_and_darker_than_that

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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While I don't approve of illegal immigrants claiming a "right" to stay here, the reality of the situation is that our economy needs them.

They do jobs that others won't. Beef and poultry slaughterhouses are the easiest example.

They do jobs that others won't because employers are enabled to take advantage of them due to their status - they aren't likely to turn them in for violating workplace regulations. If those workers weren't around to be taken advantage of by employers, then prices would certainly rise. To say that our economy "needs" them is to say that you are OK with a permanent underclass that has no legal recourse for the sake of lower prices. I don't think that is a good moral position, and it isn't a "need" of our economy.

The "need" I was referring to was the economic impossibility of simply throwing out 12 million plus illegal immigrants.

Slaughterhouses was just the easiest job I could think of. There are lots of others.
I haven't seen any older white people (men or women) driving lawnmowers yet, they aren't up on roofs nailing shingles either. Low pay, low skill jobs are historically the entry-level jobs for the immigrants to the country. Giving them some sort of legal status would empower them to force the employers to follow the rules.

One of the most democratic ideals of this country has been clearly demonstrated by our immigrants (including my great-great-grandparents on both sides). They worked long hours at hard, low pay jobs in order to give their children a chance at a better life.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[sundevil777 102]

If they had some legal status, they would be subject to normal labor laws, driving their wages much higher. Some would argue this is a bad thing, fewer of them would be employed, etc. In effect many argue that the way things are is best, giving the unfortunate illegal immigrants an opportunity to earn much more than they could back at their home country. I think this is morally not acceptable.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[rushmc 23]

If the laws make it difficult for them no one need "throw" them out or lead them to slaughter houses (as stupid an idea I've seen here)

As has happened before, they will leave on thier own.

Or, they can come to the country the right way, work hard and find the dream.

Very simple

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Andy9o8 2]

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As has happened before, they will leave on thier own.

-What historical example are you referring to?
- Why do you think that, even though some will voluntarily leave on their own, the majority will not try to stay as long as they can until/unless they're caught and deported?

[rushmc 23]

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As has happened before, they will leave on thier own.

-What historical example are you referring to?
- Why do you think that, even though some will voluntarily leave on their own, the majority will not try to stay as long as they can until/unless they're caught and deported?

Toward the end of the Bush terms when the laws were being enforce they were leaving in droves

I will see if I can find an old news article about it but, as normal, the state run media did not report on it much

But for now
How about a very current example?

http://www.nationalledger.com/artman/publish/article_272631566.shtml

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Andy9o8 2]

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As has happened before, they will leave on thier own.

-What historical example are you referring to?
- Why do you think that, even though some will voluntarily leave on their own, the majority will not try to stay as long as they can until/unless they're caught and deported?

Toward the end of the Bush terms when the laws were being enforce they were leaving in droves

I will see if I can find an old news article about it but, as normal, the state run media did not report on it much

But for now
How about a very current example?

http://www.nationalledger.com/artman/publish/article_272631566.shtml

Your example has some relevance, but I'll bet that a majority of those leaving AZ are going to other US states, and only a minority are going back to Mexico. Although a bit ambiguous, the article seems to suggest this.

I'm still inclined to think that tougher laws/enforecment will result in most of those already here just going deeper underground rather than going back home. But, I'm always open-minded to hard data.

[rushmc 23]

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As has happened before, they will leave on thier own.

-What historical example are you referring to?
- Why do you think that, even though some will voluntarily leave on their own, the majority will not try to stay as long as they can until/unless they're caught and deported?

Toward the end of the Bush terms when the laws were being enforce they were leaving in droves

I will see if I can find an old news article about it but, as normal, the state run media did not report on it much

But for now
How about a very current example?

http://www.nationalledger.com/artman/publish/article_272631566.shtml

Your example has some relevance, but I'll bet that a majority of those leaving AZ are going to other US states, and only a minority are going back to Mexico. Although a bit ambiguous, the article seems to suggest this.

I'm still inclined to think that tougher laws/enforecment will result in most of those already here just going deeper underground rather than going back home. But, I'm always open-minded to hard data.

You are correct as articles do say they are going to other states
I am looking for some other info but that has now been a few years back and I am not have much luck as of yet
I will keep looking

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-09-26-moving_N.htm

A sob story example but none the less

The google search link to find more
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&tbo=1&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F2004%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F31%2F2008&q=Undocumented+immigrants+leaving+the++us&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Andy9o8 2]

Just thought I'd comment on this:

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Another provision of the new law, aimed at day laborers, makes it a misdemeanor for an undocumented immigrant to solicit work on public streets.

The law's bizarre definition of soliciting is: "any verbal or nonverbal communication by a gesture or a nod that would indicate to a reasonable person that a person is willing to be employed."

There's no way in hell that provision, especially the part about non-verbal communication, would pass constitutional muster. I've dealt with a lot of "soliciting prostitution" and "soliciting for a prostitute" statues in numerous jurisdictions over the past 30 years. (Why not? I'm a post-whore.) An imperfect analogy, but close enough for discussion's sake. I can tell you that if any prosecutor tries to press that kind of statutory language in court, it will be laughed out of the courtroom.

[Bolas 5]

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They do jobs that others won't. Beef and poultry slaughterhouses are the easiest example.

Legal american citizens would be more willing to do them if we weren't handing out free money so much.

like to the bankers
(but make the workers pay)

Nope. I don't support corporate welfare either.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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If they had some legal status, they would be subject to normal labor laws, driving their wages much higher. Some would argue this is a bad thing, fewer of them would be employed, etc. In effect many argue that the way things are is best, giving the unfortunate illegal immigrants an opportunity to earn much more than they could back at their home country. I think this is morally not acceptable.

Well, aren't most of them subject to labor laws now?

Especially those using fake documentation?
They would be far less likely to file any complaints, but the employer would still be required to follow the laws for employees he has on his books as legal.

I'm sure there are some (a lot though?) of employers who know full well what the real immigration status is and take advantage of it.

I don't think it would change the wages much. Supply and demand would still dictate how much a job pays. It may change costs, as unscrupulous employers would need to come into compliance with things like required breaks, workman's comp insurance and such.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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If the laws make it difficult for them no one need "throw" them out or lead them to slaughter houses (as stupid an idea I've seen here)

As has happened before, they will leave on thier own.

Or, they can come to the country the right way, work hard and find the dream.

Very simple

Lead them to slaughterhouses??

No, they work there. It's one of the worst jobs out there. Low pay, horrible working conditions, long hours, hard and nasty work. That's why so many illegals do it. Nobody else wants to.


They (mostly) are here, working hard and trying for the dream.
They are here illegally because it is nearly impossible to get here legally.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rushmc 23]

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If the laws make it difficult for them no one need "throw" them out or lead them to slaughter houses (as stupid an idea I've seen here)

As has happened before, they will leave on thier own.

Or, they can come to the country the right way, work hard and find the dream.

Very simple

Lead them to slaughterhouses??

No, they work there. It's one of the worst jobs out there. Low pay, horrible working conditions, long hours, hard and nasty work. That's why so many illegals do it. Nobody else wants to.


They (mostly) are here, working hard and trying for the dream.
They are here illegally because it is nearly impossible to get here legally.

Sorry
I had to hury through the thread at the time

And I also agree with the reasons you give for them being here but, the law is the law. We need to change it or live with it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[dreamdancer 0]

Quote

Quote

If the laws make it difficult for them no one need "throw" them out or lead them to slaughter houses (as stupid an idea I've seen here)

As has happened before, they will leave on thier own.

Or, they can come to the country the right way, work hard and find the dream.

Very simple

Lead them to slaughterhouses??

No, they work there. It's one of the worst jobs out there. Low pay, horrible working conditions, long hours, hard and nasty work. That's why so many illegals do it. Nobody else wants to.


They (mostly) are here, working hard and trying for the dream.
They are here illegally because it is nearly impossible to get here legally.

i've done a year's work in a slaughterhouse - not nice work
(i've also done some day labour in greece - picking oranges. managed to earn enough to do some jumps in cyprus)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Sorry
I had to hury through the thread at the time

And I also agree with the reasons you give for them being here but, the law is the law. We need to change it or live with it

Agreed. The current situation is horrible.

A pathway to legal status (not citizenship), to include back taxes (although many currently pay them) and a hefty fine.

You want to see a politician drool?

How about a $5,000 fee to gain legal status.
Make it for those gainfully employed, not in legal troubles, and payable in monthly installments.

Multiply that times whatever percent of the extimated 12 million illegals is willing to go through the process (wild guess of half) and that's a boatload of money. Even after admin costs.

Considering that many of them pay nearly that amount to be smuggled into the country, it isn't all that much.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 3,079]

>How about a $5,000 fee to gain legal status.
>Make it for those gainfully employed, not in legal troubles, and payable in
>monthly installments.

I have an even better idea. Make it free to gain legal worker status. Legal immigrant workers are taxed at the highest federal withholding rate there is (38%? something like that.) If they stay here they never see the money and it goes into our tax revenue. If they go back to Mexico they get their tax money back minus $5000 (or some other amount sufficient to support the program.)

[masterrig 1]

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They do jobs that others won't. Beef and poultry slaughterhouses are the easiest example.

Legal american citizens would be more willing to do them if we weren't handing out free money so much.

I can recall a time when jobs like construction, truck driving, road building and several other jobs were highly sought after. The pay was good and a man could support his family, and have a few 'extras'. Somewhere along the line, employers latched-on to the idea of hiring illegals, cut the wages and set it up to where a man couldn't 'afford' to do those jobs. Wages went down and the businesses found their profits were higher. I knew men who worked in packing plants, machine shops, lumber yards and other 'labor' jobs. I knew women who cleaned homes and took-in ironing and it helped their family. Why should a man want a job that used to pay good and now only pays minimum wage or less?
But... we need illegals!


Chuck

[billvon 3,079]

> The pay was good and a man could support his family, and have a
> few 'extras'

Well, that was back when supporting your family meant eating a lot of potatoes, getting a chicken every once in a while and maybe a black and white TV. And if you were lucky you could get out to a movie once in a while - maybe even someday a car if you saved up for it.

Nowadays steak, cars, bigscreen TV's, Internet access and cellphones are pretty much a requirement for every american - and you can't really do that on minimum wage.

> Why should a man want a job that used to pay good and now only pays
>minimum wage or less?

They don't - thus the need for illegals, unfortunately.

[masterrig 1]

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> The pay was good and a man could support his family, and have a
> few 'extras'

Well, that was back when supporting your family meant eating a lot of potatoes, getting a chicken every once in a while and maybe a black and white TV. And if you were lucky you could get out to a movie once in a while - maybe even someday a car if you saved up for it.

Nowadays steak, cars, bigscreen TV's, Internet access and cellphones are pretty much a requirement for every american - and you can't really do that on minimum wage.

> Why should a man want a job that used to pay good and now only pays
>minimum wage or less?

They don't - thus the need for illegals, unfortunately.

I was raised by a truck driver dad and we didn't want for much. We ate good... trust me! If, big business hadn't gotten so greedy people would still be willing to do 'those' jobs. Big business has 'out-sourced' jobs, imported everything from China and basically ruined the labor market. They've got the politicians eating out of their hands and are turning this country into one of 'haves and have nots'. And we're paying for it.


Chuck


Chuck

[billvon 3,079]

>I was raised by a truck driver dad and we didn't want for much.

I was raised by two teachers and we wanted for quite a few things. We weren't close to starving, but didn't have any of the stuff our neighbors had. I remember going over to a friend's house all the time because their color TV got something like 30 channels - our old black and white TV got about 5.

When we finally were able to afford to move out of an apartment, my parents bought some empty land in what would later become a pretty fashionable part of Long Island. We got our house built through connections to local contractors; my parents had to cash in every one of the favors they had done over the years for their colleagues and (former) students.

>If, big business hadn't gotten so greedy people would still be willing
>to do 'those' jobs.

People and big business both got greedy. We're not a nation willing to "go without" any more - whether you're a high school grad or a CEO.