So, All this Outrage Over Arizona's New Law, yet...

[Channman 2]

> jail those who would hire them...

Why impose a penilty on employers? Illegal is just that Illegal, and those coming across the Border should be arrested, jailed, and returned.

I don't know if a guest worker program is a good idea, because there is no real controls over the worker, and there are no controls on preventing the working walking off into the sunset never to be seen again. So placing the onus on the employer to return them is a good reason not to allow them in or employ them in the first place.

[airdvr 210]

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He has let him go and contacted the feds and the IRS about this

Should the employer go to jail?

And you're talking about those who try and do the right thing. There's also plenty that don't and never will. Any idea how much $$ is saved by a business by paying anyone under the table? Alot.

Some? Ya, I can see that
Alot?
I find that hard to believe
I would want more info to buy on to that
But that is just me

I'm not saying alot of employers pay under the table. I'm saying the ones that do save alot of $$ by not having to match.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[wmw999 2,461]

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Why impose a penilty on employers?

Because many of them are knowingly hiring illegals for the financial advantage. That gives a reason for the illegals to come to the US.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SivaGanesha 2]

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All this talk of ID is kinda lik closing the barn door after the horse got out.

The problem is more that the neighbor's horse has gotten in and has eaten all the hay.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[rushmc 23]

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He has let him go and contacted the feds and the IRS about this

Should the employer go to jail?

And you're talking about those who try and do the right thing. There's also plenty that don't and never will. Any idea how much $$ is saved by a business by paying anyone under the table? Alot.

Some? Ya, I can see that
Alot?
I find that hard to believe
I would want more info to buy on to that
But that is just me

I'm not saying alot of employers pay under the table. I'm saying the ones that do save alot of $$ by not having to match.

Ok
that is easier to believe

Thanks

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[shropshire 0]

I believe that ignorance is not a very good defence in a court of law.... So the employers should ensure that all of their employees are legit.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Bolas 5]

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I don't know if a guest worker program is a good idea, because there is no real controls over the worker, and there are no controls on preventing the working walking off into the sunset never to be seen again. So placing the onus on the employer to return them is a good reason not to allow them in or employ them in the first place.

Especially when we have rising unemployment.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[skyrider 0]

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...nary a peep about a democrat proposal for a National ID Card program introduced yesterday.

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/95235-democrats-spark-alarm-with-call-for-national-id-card

Now, such a program for temporary/short-term guest workers is not such a bad idea in some aspects, but for everyone...go ahead, defend that!

We have had simular laws on the books forever, EVERYONE has to carry a legal ID , to not do so can cost you a minumu of 24 hours in jail...

I know, I had to do that in Ohio, New York, Illinoise,Missouri, and Tennessee back when I was a teen and traveling the country....worked out in my favor though, I got a bed and three meals for a day!

[diablopilot 2]

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I think that carrying REAL identification in this country is LONG overdue.


The people who seem to think that a national ID card is the spawn of satan incarnate.. need to pull their collective heads out of each others collective asses.

Well, we sure know how you feel about it. Now explain why there is ANY need for me to have my "papers" while walking down the street, or relaxing on my own property.

Get a grip, and get out of my business.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[captain1976 0]

Maybe I'm in the minority here but my issues with illegals is more that they are not paying income taxes for the services they use which is one of the reasons why we are in such debt,

A mandatory federal ID is not the solution either.


Besides, we don't even need a new program to do it, just expand the passport program.

We have to do something here. I am sick of paying for Illegals medical, schooling and other needs.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[masterrig 1]

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Maybe I'm in the minority here but my issues with illegals is more that they are not paying income taxes for the services they use which is one of the reasons why we are in such debt,

A mandatory federal ID is not the solution either.


Besides, we don't even need a new program to do it, just expand the passport program.

We have to do something here. I am sick of paying for Illegals medical, schooling and other needs.

Amen, Brother!


Chuck

[timmyfitz 0]

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...nary a peep about a democrat proposal for a National ID Card program introduced yesterday.

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/95235-democrats-spark-alarm-with-call-for-national-id-card

Now, such a program for temporary/short-term guest workers is not such a bad idea in some aspects, but for everyone...go ahead, defend that!

We have had simular laws on the books forever, EVERYONE has to carry a legal ID , to not do so can cost you a minumu of 24 hours in jail...

Wrong.

[Andy9o8 2]

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We have had simular laws on the books forever, EVERYONE has to carry a legal ID , to not do so can cost you a minumu of 24 hours in jail...

A day before you posted this nonsense here, you posted the same thing over in the "AZ racial profiling" thread, and I replied-back (post #147) that it was completely incorrect.

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3848928;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

You: It has been law all my life that anyone over the age of 16 carry, "at all times" a "Legal" ID.

Me: No, it hasn't. And it isn't.
Unless you're referring to driver's licenses, which is not the same thing as being required to carry legal ID on oneself, you're simply inventing a "fact" where no such fact exists.

Now, a day later, you repeat it here. No matter how many times you repeat the same factually wrong thing, it's still factually wrong.

[jclalor 12]

I know, I had to do that in Ohio, New York, Illinoise,Missouri, and Tennessee back when I was a teen and traveling the country....worked out in my favor though, I got a bed and three meals for a day!

Your wrong:

The Supreme Court has recognized the significant intrusion occasioned by an identifcation requirement in a statute. See Brown v. Texas 443 U.S.47, 52, 99 S.Ct. 2637, 61 L.Ed.2d 357 (1979). "We believe that the serious intrusion on personal security outweighs the mere possibility that identification may provide a link leading to arrest."

[airdvr 210]

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I know, I had to do that in Ohio, New York, Illinoise,Missouri, and Tennessee back when I was a teen and traveling the country....worked out in my favor though, I got a bed and three meals for a day!

Your wrong:


The Supreme Court has recognized the significant intrusion occasioned by an identifcation requirement in a statute. See Brown v. Texas 443 U.S.47, 52, 99 S.Ct. 2637, 61 L.Ed.2d 357 (1979). "We believe that the serious intrusion on personal security outweighs the mere possibility that identification may provide a link leading to arrest."

Actually I think you're wrong. I can't cite the actual ruling but in the mid '90s I remember a big uproar that a cop could ask you to identify yourself and if you refused you could be hauled off.

Maybe some legal eagle on here can clarify.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Andy9o8 2]

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I know, I had to do that in Ohio, New York, Illinoise,Missouri, and Tennessee back when I was a teen and traveling the country....worked out in my favor though, I got a bed and three meals for a day!

Your wrong:


The Supreme Court has recognized the significant intrusion occasioned by an identifcation requirement in a statute. See Brown v. Texas 443 U.S.47, 52, 99 S.Ct. 2637, 61 L.Ed.2d 357 (1979). "We believe that the serious intrusion on personal security outweighs the mere possibility that identification may provide a link leading to arrest."

Actually I think you're wrong. I can't cite the actual ruling but in the mid '90s I remember a big uproar that a cop could ask you to identify yourself and if you refused you could be hauled off.

Maybe some legal eagle on here can clarify.

He/we are right. Here are a couple decent layman's synopses discussing the state of the law on this issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes#States_with_.E2.80.9Cstop_and_identify.E2.80.9D_statutes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_documents_in_the_United_States

[airdvr 210]

OK..we're good then. I can tell that cop who asks me for information to get fucked

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[rhaig 0]

as the saying goes
"you might beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride!"

--
Rob

[kallend 2,032]

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Maybe I'm in the minority here but my issues with illegals is more that they are not paying income taxes for the services they use which is one of the reasons why we are in such debt,

A mandatory federal ID is not the solution either.


Besides, we don't even need a new program to do it, just expand the passport program.

We have to do something here. I am sick of paying for Illegals medical, schooling and other needs.

Just how much are YOU personally paying to support illegals?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rhys 0]

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The people who seem to think that a national ID card is the spawn of satan incarnate.. need to pull their collective heads out of each others collective asses.

When you re uner the thumb, you are no longer free.

You should pull your head out of the sand woman!

do you still beleive the fedeal reserve is 'run' by the government. or do you understand that private individuals control your countries economy?

Once you understand that, and you understand the influence those few people have on our world, you will oppose such identification cards.

If you have not committed a crime you should not have to be fingerprinted!

But you are one of these pseudo leftists that pretend that you are not a right wing nutcase, so you will likely not fathom (or admit) that as your pride will likely not allow you to.

If America actually spent its 'homeland security' budget on 'homeland security' rather than killing innocents that would never even likely step foot on your country, then you probably would not be in the sitution you re in now.

But you like guns and war is guns and as long as you are at war, you have guns.

Your supposedly free country is not free, it is fucking expensive, and it is a fucking mess, and you people are opressed. Attitudes like yours allow the assholes that control it/are destroying it, to continue on their path of evil.

I think you might have poo in your nostril!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[metalslug 36]

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Nope, I don't like it. A national ID card that's optional to carry today is likely to eventually become mandatory to carry some time in the very foreseeable future. It's the first step on the slippery step to "Papers, please." No, thanks.

Surely there are times when "Papers please" is appropriate or even necessary ?

In my country (and probably several others) we've had national identity documents for as long as I've been alive. We use them for banking transactions at a teller, proof of age at certain locations and events, as a precursor to applications for other forms of identity (passport, driver's licence,...) and pretty much any kind of legal contract.
In my opinion, they solve more problems than they create.
We have never been required to carry them on our person for random inspection by any authority, despite having an illegal immigration problem that is arguably worse than the U.S.

Of course, I'm not in the U.S, so you may say "apples and oranges", but I think its premature to assume this new idea will lead to any significant level of totalitarianism.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Nope, I don't like it. A national ID card that's optional to carry today is likely to eventually become mandatory to carry some time in the very foreseeable future. It's the first step on the slippery step to "Papers, please." No, thanks.

Surely there are times when "Papers please" is appropriate or even necessary ?

In my country (and probably several others) we've had national identity documents for as long as I've been alive. We use them for banking transactions at a teller, proof of age at certain locations and events, as a precursor to applications for other forms of identity (passport, driver's licence,...) and pretty much any kind of legal contract.
In my opinion, they solve more problems than they create.
We have never been required to carry them on our person for random inspection by any authority, despite having an illegal immigration problem that is arguably worse than the U.S.

Of course, I'm not in the U.S, so you may say "apples and oranges", but I think its premature to assume this new idea will lead to any significant level of totalitarianism.

I mean you no personal offense, but I wonder if you appreciate the irony of your post. The historical example of your country during its apartheid era is usually the first or second example of what comes to my mind when I think about totalitarian abuse of "papers, please".

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We have never been required to carry them on our person for random inspection by any authority,

Are you serious? Unless you were born after April 27, 1994 (which would make you no older than 16 today), when apartheid and its pass-book system ended, I suppose that depends on your definition of "we".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pass_laws

[Gawain 0]

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Nope, I don't like it. A national ID card that's optional to carry today is likely to eventually become mandatory to carry some time in the very foreseeable future. It's the first step on the slippery step to "Papers, please." No, thanks.

Surely there are times when "Papers please" is appropriate or even necessary ?

In the US, such arbitrary requests by authorities is unconstitutional.

With probable cause, it's allowed, but rarely arbitrary...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[timmyfitz 0]

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Maybe I'm in the minority here but my issues with illegals is more that they are not paying income taxes for the services they use which is one of the reasons why we are in such debt,

A mandatory federal ID is not the solution either.


Besides, we don't even need a new program to do it, just expand the passport program.

We have to do something here. I am sick of paying for Illegals medical, schooling and other needs.

Just how much are YOU personally paying to support illegals?

It is funny how you try to twist someones words. Nothing new for you though. Unless you actually didn't understand his meaning. Maybe you need some more education. Either way-pathetic.

[metalslug 36]

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I mean you no personal offense, but I wonder if you appreciate the irony of your post. The historical example of your country during the apartheid days is usually the first or second example of what comes to my mind when I think about totalitarian abuse of "papers, please".

The irony is not lost on me.
Possibly of equal irony is that some 16 years later we still have these identity documents, and issue more of them than ever before because now every legal citizen is entitled to have one.
It protects many of our citizens from the thousands of illegal immigrants crossing the borders from other parts of Africa to compete for jobs and state resources.
"Papers please" can still be useful when it starts to serve one's own interests. Evidently even our new government agrees.

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In the US, such arbitrary requests by authorities is unconstitutional.

With probable cause, it's allowed, but rarely arbitrary...

Arbitrary requests by authorities is unconstitutional here too. I never stated anything to the contrary.