The diplomatic discussion on using the system to your advantage.

[airtwardo 7]

Their policy is 'no questions asked' as far as i am aware, can you show m otherwise?

I went over the policy a few times I don't see a 'no questions asked' rule specifically referred to.

But that wasn't my point.

Point was as you stated in the locked end of the less than diplomatic discussion that you didn't intend to 'buy' the gear when you 'purchased' it.

Or as you say, 'used the system to your advantage'.

Again it's a matter of personal ethics...truth be told I have THREE tents in the garage that were purchased from Wal-Mart. Several times on trips we've made the kids wanted to camp so I went out and actually bought a tent.

I don't feel taking back something used for a refund because I'm done with it, is an ethical move...and especially not something I would have wanted my kids to see me do.

That's just who I am, my wife is the same...last week she went all the back to Wal-Mart to pay for a box of flair pens that were in the bag but not rung up on the receipt.

Maybe it's just me but that's the 'system' I like to use...could be the whole karma thing I guess, in my mind it's wrong so I don't do it.

You have a differing viewpoint and that's fine...I'm certainly not going to insult you for THAT. (the electric skateboard maybe)

Once more, at least you aren't lying regarding the facts of the situation, which does if nothing else make for a more interesting discussion.


BTW...if ya come to Texas and need a tent for the DZ, just use one of mine!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[rhys 0]

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Maybe it's just me but that's the 'system' I like to use...could be the whole karma thing I guess, in my mind it's wrong so I don't do it.

You have a differing viewpoint and that's fine...I'm certainly not going to insult you for THAT. (the electric skateboard maybe)

Sweet bro, thanks for your input, we can agree to disagree on that one for sure.

I would be intersted to meet you and i'm sure my swooping endeavours will end me up in texas at some point. I would be interested to have a beer with ya, you seem interesting and have a good sence of humour.

Pretty sure I won't be camping though, but thanks for the offer.

As far as the electric skatebprd goes, I'm sure you would want one if you saw it. 0-30 kmph in 4 seconds, 25kph up steep hills, offroad wheels with tyres. Gets me to work faster than a car, costs nothing to run.

M6-800 off road electric skatboard

It cost me $1400, $$600 shipping! I don't have a car in Australia, i don't need one!

That makes me feel good.

Being the dutchie I am, I charge it in the parking section of the apartment building, the electricity is paid by the management.

I suppose I had better give em a cheque for the power I scammmed out of em. Fuck that they have that pesky light that shines in the room all night, just for one more week rhys, just for one more week.

Did I just say that out loud?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[strop45 0]

Kia ora Rhys

When you present goods at the checkout counter and hand the money over, its implicit that you wish to buy the goods. If your intentions at the time of purchase were to return it after 90 days, then IMO, it was up to you clarify that at the time. Not saying something can be as deceptive as telling an outright falsehood - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie#Lying_by_omission

Lets turn the scenario around. You have a near new rig/canopy/reserve/AAD for sale. I phone and express interest, but am worried about the fit of the rig and whether I will like the canopy. I don't tell you that I don't actually want to buy it, just need it for a few weeks while my rig is away getting its AAD serviced. You offer to send it to me so I can test the fit and make some jumps on it. I get your rig, put 50 jumps and some grass stains on it then send it back.

Legally I'm 100% in the clear, but ethically I'm up shitcreek. Of course, you would say "Good on ya mate, that's the way to do business" yeah right.

Good luck with your plans for a carbon neutral DZ.

Kia ora ona

Wayne

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[rhys 0]

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Kia ora Rhys

When you present goods at the checkout counter and hand the money over, its implicit that you wish to buy the goods. If your intentions at the time of purchase were to return it after 90 days, then IMO, it was up to you clarify that at the time. Not saying something can be as deceptive as telling an outright falsehood - see http://en.wikipedia.org/...ie#Lying_by_omission

Lets turn the scenario around. You have a near new rig/canopy/reserve/AAD for sale. I phone and express interest, but am worried about the fit of the rig and whether I will like the canopy. I don't tell you that I don't actually want to buy it, just need it for a few weeks while my rig is away getting its AAD serviced. You offer to send it to me so I can test the fit and make some jumps on it. I get your rig, put 50 jumps and some grass stains on it then send it back.

Legally I'm 100% in the clear, but ethically I'm up shitcreek. Of course, you would say "Good on ya mate, that's the way to do business" yeah right.

Good luck with your plans for a carbon neutral DZ.

Kia ora ona

Wayne

Tena koe Wayne

All good, I can understand your viewpoint, but for this reason I would never send goods to anyone without payment, if they paid and were not happy for whatever reason I would think about giving them thier money back all thigs considered, as long as the goods were in the same condition as I gave them in.

I would not offer such a 90 day deal...

I hope I don't need too much luck (for the DZ) but I welcome your warm thoughts, there will be many barriers but experience, honesty, integrety and hard work will get us through.

A little paperwork and a couple more weeks and the marketing begins...

kia kaha,

Aroha nui, ka kite ano.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[timmyfitz 0]

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Like I said "Spin it anyway you want to make yourself feel better but you are wrong".

because?

Really? Your memory can't be that short or you can't be that stupid, can you?. Let me try again.

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You did not take the goods on a trail basis. A trail basis would be you take something to try it out for a period of time to decide if you liked it or not.

You fully intended to return it whether you liked it or not. This is not a trail basis. Spin it anyway you want to make yourself feel better but you are wrong. And to use your own words "I will agree that it is morally incorrect to do so".

As others have said before, you ignore comments that don't agree with you. And if someone does not agree with you, then they are wrong in your opinion. Very sad for you that you have such a closed mind.

Now, as usual, spin it to make yourself feel better.

[rhys 0]

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As others have said before, you ignore comments that don't agree with you. And if someone does not agree with you, then they are wrong in your opinion. Very sad for you that you have such a closed mind.

I can disagree with mindset, i have not been proved to be at fault, some disagree with my actions, that is their rigt as well as yours.

You have proved nothing other than the fact that you need other people to explain your skewed feelings and you do not act individually.

That is sad, you want to discredit me and make yourself look like an angel, when you quite clearly are not in touch with your true self or wish not to expose it.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Can you clarify where you beleive I was fraudulent?

By knowing when you bought the item that you had no intent to keep it and, in fact, had every intent to return it. You knew when you did so that if you had disclosed this information to Wal-Mart they would not have sold you the item.
It is a very simple case of fraud. You did not just "use the system" to your advantage, you committed a crime. Not the most intelligent thing to admit to criminal activity on a forum anyone can easily gain access to and read.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhys 0]

Quote

By knowing when you bought the item that you had no intent to keep it and, in fact, had every intent to return it. You knew when you did so that if you had disclosed this information to Wal-Mart they would not have sold you the item.
It is a very simple case of fraud. You did not just "use the system" to your advantage, you committed a crime. Not the most intelligent thing to admit to criminal activity on a forum anyone can easily gain access to and read.

What crime? I told them I don't want them anymore.

Am I expected to know everything, i know you know everything but I am just a regular guy, i don;t know anything other than what people have told me and that is that i can get my money back if i return the goods withing 90 days.

Thats what I did.

You remind me of the cop that tried to give me a fine for not wearing a helmet on my skateboard. He was sure it was the law, I explained to him that I agree that I should probably wear a helmet when using the a skateboard, but a skateboard is a vehicle not a cycle and there is no legislation for helmets and skateboards yet. He called his office after flicking through his 'law book', he reluctantly told me to carry on.

what seems right is not always right. am I a bad person because I don't wear a helmet?

I don't think so, maybe a little stupid or lazy but I am well within my rights to ride a skeateboar in any place one can ride a bicycle, with no helmet on!

I was also well within my rights to return the goods when had tried them and decided i didn't want them' for whatever reason.

We know your train of thought is almost polar opposites to mine so I can agree that we disagree, but don't accuse me of braking the law.

Saying it is a fraud is only true when I did not tell the truth somehwere. If I never lied, how can it be fraud.

If you suggest it is my responsability to explain my reasons for paying for the goods, why was I not asked and where does it say that this is the case?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[timmyfitz 0]

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As others have said before, you ignore comments that don't agree with you. And if someone does not agree with you, then they are wrong in your opinion. Very sad for you that you have such a closed mind.

I can disagree with mindset, i have not been proved to be at fault, some disagree with my actions, that is their rigt as well as yours.

You have proved nothing other than the fact that you need other people to explain your skewed feelings and you do not act individually.

That is sad, you want to discredit me and make yourself look like an angel, when you quite clearly are not in touch with your true self or wish not to expose it.

Like I said, spin it anyway you want to make yourself feel better but you are wrong.

[sundevil777 102]

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I don't doubt that it is possible to prove me wrong

You said the same about your 911 conspiracy beliefs, but your actions lead to a different conclusion.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[turtlespeed 226]

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I don't doubt that it is possible to prove me wrong

You said the same about your 911 conspiracy beliefs, but your actions lead to a different conclusion.

That, and the proof is there, just because he decides to ignore it, doesn't make it any less true.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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What crime? I told them I don't want them anymore.

Fraud includes intent.
You have documented your intent here on this forum. Not wise.
Fraud includes withholding information.
Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, you have committed fraud.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[billvon 3,058]

> but for this reason I would never send goods to anyone without payment . . .

. . . because there are people out there like you?

[airtwardo 7]

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What crime? I told them I don't want them anymore.

Fraud includes intent.
You have documented your intent here on this forum. Not wise.
Fraud includes withholding information.
Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, you have committed fraud.

Hummm...interesting~

Fraud:
A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

Fraud is commonly understood as dishonesty calculated for advantage. A person who is dishonest may be called a fraud. In the U.S. legal system, fraud is a specific offense with certain features.

Fraud is most common in the buying or selling of property, including real estate, Personal Property, and intangible property, such as stocks, bonds, and copyrights. State and federal statutes criminalize fraud, but not all cases rise to the level of criminality. Prosecutors have discretion in determining which cases to pursue. Victims may also seek redress in civil court.

Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.

These elements contain nuances that are not all easily proved. First, not all false statements are fraudulent. To be fraudulent, a false statement must relate to a material fact. It should also substantially affect a person's decision to enter into a contract or pursue a certain course of action. A false statement of fact that does not bear on the disputed transaction will not be considered fraudulent.

Second, the defendant must know that the statement is untrue. A statement of fact that is simply mistaken is not fraudulent. To be fraudulent, a false statement must be made with intent to deceive the victim. This is perhaps the easiest element to prove, once falsity and materiality are proved, because most material false statements are designed to mislead.

Third, the false statement must be made with the intent to deprive the victim of some legal right.

Fourth, the victim's reliance on the false statement must be reasonable. Reliance on a patently absurd false statement generally will not give rise to fraud; however, people who are especially gullible, superstitious, or ignorant or who are illiterate may recover damages for fraud if the defendant knew and took advantage of their condition.

Finally, the false statement must cause the victim some injury that leaves her or him in a worse position than she or he was in before the fraud.

A statement of belief is not a statement of fact and thus is not fraudulent. Puffing, or the expression of a glowing opinion by a seller, is likewise not fraudulent. For example, a car dealer may represent that a particular vehicle is "the finest in the lot." Although the statement may not be true, it is not a statement of fact, and a reasonable buyer would not be justified in relying on it.

The relationship between parties can make a difference in determining whether a statement is fraudulent. A misleading statement is more likely to be fraudulent when one party has superior knowledge in a transaction, and knows that the other is relying on that knowledge, than when the two parties possess equal knowledge. For example, if the seller of a car with a bad engine tells the buyer the car is in excellent running condition, a court is more likely to find fraud if the seller is an auto mechanic as opposed to a sales trainee. Misleading statements are most likely to be fraudulent where one party exploits a position of trust and confidence, or a fiduciary relationship. Fiduciary relationships include those between attorneys and clients, physicians and patients, stockbrokers and clients, and the officers and partners of a corporation and its stockholders.

A statement need not be affirmative to be fraudulent. When a person has a duty to speak, silence may be treated as a false statement. This can arise if a party who has knowledge of a fact fails to disclose it to another party who is justified in assuming its nonexistence. For example, if a real estate agent fails to disclose that a home is built on a toxic waste dump, the omission may be regarded as a fraudulent statement. Even if the agent does not know of the dump, the omission may be considered fraudulent. This is constructive fraud, and it is usually inferred when a party is a fiduciary and has a duty to know of, and disclose, particular facts.

Fraud is an independent criminal offense, but it also appears in different contexts as the means used to gain a legal advantage or accomplish a specific crime. For example, it is fraud for a person to make a false statement on a license application in order to engage in the regulated activity. A person who did so would not be convicted of fraud. Rather, fraud would simply describe the method used to break the law or regulation requiring the license.

Fraud resembles theft in that both involve some form of illegal taking, but the two should not be confused. Fraud requires an additional element of False Pretenses created to induce a victim to turn over property, services, or money. Theft, by contrast, requires only the unauthorized taking of another's property with the intent to permanently deprive the other of the property. Because fraud involves more planning than does theft, it is punished more severely.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy9o8 2]

Here. This is where honest customers go to rent stuff:

http://www6.rentacenter.com/Rent-A-Center-Home.html#1

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Here. This is where honest customers go to rent stuff:

http://www6.rentacenter.com/Rent-A-Center-Home.html#1

Yep!
Aaron's also.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhys 0]

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You said the same about your 911 conspiracy beliefs, but your actions lead to a different conclusion.

I am not going to get into the 9/11 topic in this thread but the mindset is similar.

not the same, but similar.

I beleive a well presented and concise hypothesis, you say I am wrong, and beleive a different more vague and spread out hypothesis that goes against newtons laws of gravity. You say I am just wrong becuase I am listening to people that are lying. I study it, I find out that you have been listening to lies, ignoring them, ignoring evidence and calling industry professionals lyers because you cannot refute what it is they have discovered.

This discussion is more about attitude and being able to explain your feelings, and thoughts openly and honestly, than what is right and what is wrong, what we believe to be the truth we can change with information that is given to us.

You usual tactic of insulting peope and attacking thier integrety without addressing the subject matter is all too common of those that are not in touch with their true selves and trying to push n adgenda rather than seek the truth.

If you want to talk about 9/11 go to the appropriate thread, there are many of them!

An accusation is not an explanaition. I suggest you be more honest with yourself, and everybody.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I have a nephew who, when he was a teenager, spent a lot of time in custody of the courts. He had a very simple problem...he thought anything that wasn't fastened down or in the physical possession of somebody was free to take. Tools, car parts, you name it and he probably stole it at some point. In his mind he was doing no wrong.
Your "justification" of your actions are eerily similar.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[chuckakers 426]

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I must admit I intentionally plucked a few strings to get such reactions.

Didn't finish the read nor is there a need...

....troll.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[sundevil777 102]

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I must admit I intentionally plucked a few strings to get such reactions.

Didn't finish the read nor is there a need...

....troll.

Quite right!

He's just seeking the truth, blah, blah

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[sundevil777 102]

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I beleive a well presented and concise hypothesis

The facts are more important than being well presented and concise. Not surprising that you wouldn't rate that as high as being slick and short.

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you say I am wrong, and beleive a different more vague and spread out hypothesis that goes against newtons laws of gravity.

I showed how your guy's data absolutely does not support his claims of freefall acceleration, and all you did was say that it didn't matter. It seems not to matter to you what is proven, you don't debate intellectually, just avoid the real issues, change the subject and pretend as if the facts always support your assertions.

Very similar to what has happened in this thread.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Rhys' technique is based on Calvinball.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin_and_Hobbes#Calvinball

Other kids' games are all such a bore!
They've gotta have rules and they gotta keep score!
Calvinball is better by far!
It's never the same! It's always bizarre!
You don't need a team or a referee!
You know that it's great, 'cause it's named after me!


—The Calvinball theme song[45]

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jclalor 12]

170 post trying to argue logic and morals with a truther?

[rhys 0]

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I have a nephew who, when he was a teenager, spent a lot of time in custody of the courts. He had a very simple problem...he thought anything that wasn't fastened down or in the physical possession of somebody was free to take. Tools, car parts, you name it and he probably stole it at some point. In his mind he was doing no wrong.
Your "justification" of your actions are eerily similar.

The difference is that he broke the law and was dishonest! does that run in the family?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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:
In Reply To
I must admit I intentionally plucked a few strings to get such reactions.

Didn't finish the read nor is there a need...

....troll.

I suppse you can tell whether a book is any good by the picture on the front too?

Thats a talent you got there you know.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix