Famous Celebrities that have served in the Military...

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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The two statements are not mutually exclusive as you think they are.

They are. By saying what you say about the the students, you claim that they set in motion an inevitable and immutable chain of events that leaves the NG no choice but to fire. You can't say they have no excuse for their actions when you're simultaneously saying they had no choice.

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You can't hold somebody down while your buddy stabs them and then claim their death was not any of your fault.

But funnily enough, the protestors and the NG weren't colluding with each other.

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You can't get drunk, drive, cause a fatal accident, then say the death was not your fault because the other guy wasn't wearing a seatbelt.

Your analogy falls down at the first steop there, since the protesters didn't cause any fatalities.

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Now, do you care to tell me what violent and illegal act a rape victim does to incite her attacker?

You still misunderstand, even though I've explained where you're going wrong.

The analogy is about strength of intended response. The provocatively dressed woman wants to incite a sexual response, but not one as strong as rape. She also has no reasonable grounds to think that she will get raped as a result.

The protesters may have wanted a response from the NG, they certainly didn't want to get shot.

You still fail to explain what violent actions rape victims do to provoke the attack. You also fail to understand that rape victims rarely are trying to get any kind of violent reaction from a man, but the protesters were determined to get just that. They wanted violence,they got violence, their actions led directly to four deaths. Without their protest turning violent there would have been no gunfire. Do I think the gunfire was excusable? Hell no! But the students actions were a main component of what happened that day.

I guess we will just have disagree on this issue. I base my views on accounts from two close friends who were there that day. You can base yours on media accounts.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Amazon 7]

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I base my views on accounts from two close friends who were there that day

Based on that........ how much do you think THEY and therefor you.. wish to justify the outcome of 4 dead in Ohio on the violent demonstrators.

From Wiki

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Two of the four students killed, Allison Krause and Jeffrey Miller, had participated in the protest, and the other two, Sandra Scheuer and William Knox Schroeder, had been walking from one class to the next at the time of their deaths. Schroeder was also a member of the campus ROTC chapter. Of those wounded, none was closer than 71 feet to the guardsmen. Of those killed, the nearest (Miller) was 265 feet away, and their average distance from the guardsmen was 345 feet.

Say what you will... I guess in your mind that just by being there that day... at the Kent State Massacre.... they needed killin.

[turtlespeed 220]

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I base my views on accounts from two close friends who were there that day

Based on that........ how much do you think THEY and therefor you.. wish to justify the outcome of 4 dead in Ohio on the violent demonstrators.

From Wiki

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Two of the four students killed, Allison Krause and Jeffrey Miller, had participated in the protest, and the other two, Sandra Scheuer and William Knox Schroeder, had been walking from one class to the next at the time of their deaths. Schroeder was also a member of the campus ROTC chapter. Of those wounded, none was closer than 71 feet to the guardsmen. Of those killed, the nearest (Miller) was 265 feet away, and their average distance from the guardsmen was 345 feet.

Say what you will... I guess in your mind that just by being there that day... at the Kent State Massacre.... they needed killin.

Nope. I know you aren't replying to me, but . . . that is Not what I'm trying to present at ALL. What I am saying is that the rock throwers should have been held accountable for their actions, and should have been dealt at least SOME of the penalties and adjudication that was dealt out. They are NOT blameless here.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Andrewwhyte 1]

ADOLPH HITLER-Bavarian Army
Twice decorated during WWI.

[christelsabine 1]

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ADOLPH HITLER-Bavarian Army
Twice decorated during WWI.

Whoa.

You seem to be quite agile

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[jakee 1,489]

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But neither did she trun to violence to get a violent reaction in return, unlike the protesters.

She turns to sexual provocation to get a sexual reaction.

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Lets say the same girl, doing the same things, grabs a guy by the crotch, shouts out so everyone can hear "I want you to fuck me", and then leads him to the bathroom. Was she then raped? If she changed he mind and said "no", then she was. But she sure as hell did a lot to provoke it.

Did the protesters tell the NG they wanted to be shot? Did the protesters bring the NG onto the campus?

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Comparing the protesters to a rape victim is still a very poor analogy since most rape victims do nothing to incite the act, while the protesters got the violent reaction they wanted only it was a violence far in excess of anything reasonable.

And the hypothetical rape victim gets the sexual reaction she wants from the guy, only it's a reaction far in excess of anything reasonable.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

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You still fail to explain what violent actions rape victims do to provoke the attack.

You still fail to address the point of the analogy, sexual provocation leading to a sexual reaction.

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You also fail to understand that rape victims rarely are trying to get any kind of violent reaction from a man,

I understand it perfectly. However, a provcatively dressed woman is very often trying to provoke a sexual reaction. While it has been mildly amusing to see how many times I need to say this before you even acknowledge that this is what I mean by using the analogy, it's now just boring.

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You also fail to understand that rape victims rarely are trying to get any kind of violent reaction from a man, but the protesters were determined to get just that.

The scantily clad rape victim wants a sexual reaction, the protesters (you say) wanted a violent reaction. Neither should even remotely expect or deserve the reaction they got.

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They wanted violence,they got violence, their actions led directly to four deaths. Without their protest turning violent there would have been no gunfire. Do I think the gunfire was excusable? Hell no! But the students actions were a main component of what happened that day.

The protest led to the confrontation. The decision to fire came from the National Guard, for which they alone bear responsibility.

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I guess we will just have disagree on this issue. I base my views on accounts from two close friends who were there that day. You can base yours on media accounts.

Christ almighty, apparently you don't even understand where we disagree

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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I base my views on accounts from two close friends who were there that day

Based on that........ how much do you think THEY and therefor you.. wish to justify the outcome of 4 dead in Ohio on the violent demonstrators.

From Wiki

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Two of the four students killed, Allison Krause and Jeffrey Miller, had participated in the protest, and the other two, Sandra Scheuer and William Knox Schroeder, had been walking from one class to the next at the time of their deaths. Schroeder was also a member of the campus ROTC chapter. Of those wounded, none was closer than 71 feet to the guardsmen. Of those killed, the nearest (Miller) was 265 feet away, and their average distance from the guardsmen was 345 feet.

Say what you will... I guess in your mind that just by being there that day... at the Kent State Massacre.... they needed killin.

Sorry, honey, you're barking up...and trolling up...the wrong tree. If you read my posts you wiould know that your asserstions are completey off base. I have maintained that there was no excuse for what happened. So your theory that I feel it was "justified" or that they "needed killin' " is not only groundless, I take it as a personal insult. It's like me saying that just because you were in the military you support the torture of prisoners for any reason, including no reason at all.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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But neither did she trun to violence to get a violent reaction in return, unlike the protesters.

She turns to sexual provocation to get a sexual reaction.

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Lets say the same girl, doing the same things, grabs a guy by the crotch, shouts out so everyone can hear "I want you to fuck me", and then leads him to the bathroom. Was she then raped? If she changed he mind and said "no", then she was. But she sure as hell did a lot to provoke it.

Did the protesters tell the NG they wanted to be shot? Did the protesters bring the NG onto the campus?

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Comparing the protesters to a rape victim is still a very poor analogy since most rape victims do nothing to incite the act, while the protesters got the violent reaction they wanted only it was a violence far in excess of anything reasonable.

And the hypothetical rape victim gets the sexual reaction she wants from the guy, only it's a reaction far in excess of anything reasonable.

No, the protesters did not ask to be shot. I never said they did. Yes, they did, in effect, ask that the NG be brought to campus. They were told that would happen if their protests were not kept under control.
Protests got out of control, NG came in. Pretty simple cause and effect.

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And the hypothetical rape victim gets the sexual reaction she wants from the guy, only it's a reaction far in excess of anything reasonable

Difference being, and this makes all the difference in the world and is why your analogy stinks, is that virtually no rape victim wants, let alone tries to get, their attacker into a violent state. That is exactly what the protesters wanted, tried to do, and accomplished.
Using your logic, anybody can do anything they want and, if the reaction they get isn't what they expect, it wasn't their fault. Simple rules of life: Don't tug on Superman's cape, don't spit into the wind, don't pull the mask on the Lone Ranger, and don't throw rocks at scared nervous men with rifles. It's just plain stupid.

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The protest led to the confrontation. The decision to fire came from the National Guard, for which they alone bear responsibility.

Where you are wrong there is that the protesters willingly changed their protest TO a confrontation. No confrontation, no gunfire, nobody dies. The protesters bear responsibility for what happened right along with the NG.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Amazon 7]

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I base my views on accounts from two close friends who were there that day

Based on that........ how much do you think THEY and therefor you.. wish to justify the outcome of 4 dead in Ohio on the violent demonstrators.

From Wiki

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Two of the four students killed, Allison Krause and Jeffrey Miller, had participated in the protest, and the other two, Sandra Scheuer and William Knox Schroeder, had been walking from one class to the next at the time of their deaths. Schroeder was also a member of the campus ROTC chapter. Of those wounded, none was closer than 71 feet to the guardsmen. Of those killed, the nearest (Miller) was 265 feet away, and their average distance from the guardsmen was 345 feet.

Say what you will... I guess in your mind that just by being there that day... at the Kent State Massacre.... they needed killin.

Sorry, honey, you're barking up...and trolling up...the wrong tree. If you read my posts you wiould know that your asserstions are completey off base. I have maintained that there was no excuse for what happened. So your theory that I feel it was "justified" or that they "needed killin' " is not only groundless, I take it as a personal insult. It's like me saying that just because you were in the military you support the torture of prisoners for any reason, including no reason at all.

So your buddies.....who wish to justify the actions of the Ohio National Guard...... and from what it appears you are saying.....but who are really great guys...who were there ....think that it was probably ok to kick some dirty hippie students asses .. but the NG just fucked up and opened up by mistake on unarmed civilians with M-1 rifles that shoot a .30 caliber bullet and do a pretty good job of ripping up soldiers at hundreds of yards...... oh well....I did read your post

***I will reply to your post and lucky's at the same time.
My comments are based upon the events of those days as told to me by people who were there. One man was a teacher of mine in high school, the other a close friend of my family. BOTH of them have said the same thing, that the students who were the first to start throwing things at the NG that day had went to that area with the intent of inciting a violent reaction from the NG.
Well, they got what they wanted. Unfortunately the troops that were sent were mostly undertrained and unsure of what to do. Even more unfortunately, students were killed who had nothing to do with the protests other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
What happened that day would not have happened had the government sent troops who were more experienced with crowds. They should also NOT have been given live ammo. That was a stupid thing to do.
It also would not have happened had the protesters not started throwing objects at the troops. It is a pretty stupid thing to throw rocks at men armed with rifles.
Argue what you will, my opinion of what happened is shaped by two men who were there and watched it happen. They, as well as myself, agree with the statement you quoted from the Presidents Commision. What most people don't acknowledge is the fact that the protesters were not innocent little angels. They went looking for trouble, they found it, and they got people killed.


Sounds like they were justifying to me... whatever helps them sleep at night I guess.


And if you BOTHERED to read what I thought about the goat fuck stupid idea of even using waterboarding is just that..driven by fucking idiots that ran when they had a chance to serve..... but probably really dig episodes of 24 and wish they could do that... oh.. thats right.. they sanctioned similar behavior... in contravention to a WHOLE lot of treaties.

[jakee 1,489]

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No, the protesters did not ask to be shot. I never said they did.

Then your counter scenario is irrelevant, isn't it?

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Difference being, and this makes all the difference in the world and is why your analogy stinks, is that virtually no rape victim wants, let alone tries to get, their attacker into a violent state.

No, this bit is where you intentionally misunderstand the point of the analogy. I've explained your mistake enough times, I'm not going to do it again.

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Using your logic, anybody can do anything they want and, if the reaction they get isn't what they expect, it wasn't their fault.

No, that is not my logic, that is your hyperbole.

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Where you are wrong there is that the protesters willingly changed their protest TO a confrontation. No confrontation, no gunfire, nobody dies. The protesters bear responsibility for what happened right along with the NG

The protesters share responsibility for there being a confrontation. They are in no way responsible for the decision by the National Guardsmen to fire wildly into a crowd. That is the decision that led to people getting wounded and killed, and the responsibility lies solely with the people who made it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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So your buddies.....who wish to justify the actions of the Ohio National Guard...... and from what it appears you are saying.....but who are really great guys...who were there ....think that it was probably ok to kick some dirty hippie students asses .. but the NG just fucked up and opened up by mistake on unarmed civilians with M-1 rifles that shoot a .30 caliber bullet and do a pretty good job of ripping up soldiers at hundreds of yards...... oh well....I did read your post

I'm not going take your bait and get angry at you remarks about my friends.
I have said it before, and I'm saying it again...they in NO WAY support or try to justify what the NG did that day.
You, on the other hand, completely support the actions of the protesters. You think it is ok to resort to violence when you cna't get your way. You think it is ok to disobey a lawful police order and assault those charged with enforcing that order. There was no justification for the students to turn to violence, so why do you insist upon trying?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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The protesters share responsibility for there being a confrontation. They are in no way responsible for the decision by the National Guardsmen to fire wildly into a crowd. That is the decision that led to people getting wounded and killed, and the responsibility lies solely with the people who made it.

Sorry to burst yer bubble, skippy, but the confrontation was the sole responsibility of the students. Everything was ok...tense, but ok....until they made the conscious decision to escalate their actions with the express purpose of forcing a violent reaction. For that there is no justification or excuse, the same as there is no justification or excuse for what the NG did.
Don't feel bad about not understanding what happened that day, few if any actually do. The media painting the protesters as innocent school children has not helped.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kelpdiver 2]

For those of us born past this era, I think we have to consider that the norms of the time were a bit different.

Now, people do all sorts of zany protests. Back then, the police actively beat up hippies, or anything else nearby. It was quite common for protesters to be surrounded, ordered to disperse, but not given any route to leave. Then they were gassed, beaten, arrested.

War protesters now are effectively peace lovers, pacifists in a time with a voluntary army. Back then, they were protesting the forced conscription of most men. It's a bit naive to expect the protest side to sit politely when 50k Americans died, and far more wounded for a colonial war.

No matter how you want to pass the blame, it's pretty damn hard to blame the protest for the execution of unarmed bystanders at 300ft. Do we blame the Colonials for the Boston Massacre?

[Lucky... 0]

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Hey Turtlespeed . . .

Hey Jakee, can you answer the question?

Facing professionally trained soldiers in a free country, no. I would no more expect to face a volley of gunfire for throwing a stone from over 70 yards away than I would for just being there.

My turn. Your earlier line of questioning indicates that you would shoot someone who threw a stone at you from 70 feet away. Can you confirm that this is the case?

Honest answer: It would depend on the situation and the variables.

70 yards is NOT an unreachable distance. You would have to put a LOT of effort into the throw though. That would make it possibly a deadly weapon. How many people are throwing the rocks? What other options are there? I would take steps to avoid actually having to pull the trigger, and leave firing the weapon as the very last option.

Self defense requires emminent danger. 70 feet or 70 yards; good luck in court.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

"Norms" never justify violence regardless if you are a protester or a soldier ordered to disperse them.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Amazon 7]

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So your buddies.....who wish to justify the actions of the Ohio National Guard...... and from what it appears you are saying.....but who are really great guys...who were there ....think that it was probably ok to kick some dirty hippie students asses .. but the NG just fucked up and opened up by mistake on unarmed civilians with M-1 rifles that shoot a .30 caliber bullet and do a pretty good job of ripping up soldiers at hundreds of yards...... oh well....I did read your post

I'm not going take your bait and get angry at you remarks about my friends.
I have said it before, and I'm saying it again...they in NO WAY support or try to justify what the NG did that day.
You, on the other hand, completely support the actions of the protesters. You think it is ok to resort to violence when you cna't get your way. You think it is ok to disobey a lawful police order and assault those charged with enforcing that order. There was no justification for the students to turn to violence, so why do you insist upon trying?

Nice ASSumption and yet again.. you are wrong. Why the fuck do you think that I would condone the protestors actions.. but the NG opened up with deadly force on unarmed civilians.. I dont care who the fuck you are.. THAT WAS CRIMINAL far above and beyond what ANY of the protestors deserved.....except in the conservative values and minds of the day.

I lived thru that time period and I remember well that day. The NG actions were endemic of the sickness that was afoot in this country at that time.... as evidenced by the justifications of you and others like Mr Ziegler...who comes to mind.

[billvon 2,991]

>Sorry to burst yer bubble, skippy, but the confrontation was the sole
>responsibility of the students. Everything was ok...tense, but ok....until
> they made the conscious decision to escalate their actions with the
>express purpose of forcing a violent reaction. For that there is no
>justification

"Sorry to burst your bubble, toots, but the rape was the sole responsibility of the victim. Everything was OK . . . uncomfortable, but OK . . . until that woman made the conscious decision to cock-tease with that man with the express purpose of arousing him, For that there is no justification."

Fortunately no one buys that crap any more - for murder _or_ rape.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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So your buddies.....who wish to justify the actions of the Ohio National Guard...... and from what it appears you are saying.....but who are really great guys...who were there ....think that it was probably ok to kick some dirty hippie students asses .. but the NG just fucked up and opened up by mistake on unarmed civilians with M-1 rifles that shoot a .30 caliber bullet and do a pretty good job of ripping up soldiers at hundreds of yards...... oh well....I did read your post

I'm not going take your bait and get angry at you remarks about my friends.
I have said it before, and I'm saying it again...they in NO WAY support or try to justify what the NG did that day.
You, on the other hand, completely support the actions of the protesters. You think it is ok to resort to violence when you cna't get your way. You think it is ok to disobey a lawful police order and assault those charged with enforcing that order. There was no justification for the students to turn to violence, so why do you insist upon trying?

Nice ASSumption and yet again.. you are wrong. Why the fuck do you think that I would condone the protestors actions.. but the NG opened up with deadly force on unarmed civilians.. I dont care who the fuck you are.. THAT WAS CRIMINAL far above and beyond what ANY of the protestors deserved.....except in the conservative values and minds of the day.

I lived thru that time period and I remember well that day. The NG actions were endemic of the sickness that was afoot in this country at that time.... as evidenced by the justifications of you and others like Mr Ziegler...who comes to mind.

Allright, slick, for the THIRD time....since you can't seem to grasp the concept....I in no way call the shootings justified.
Clear enough? Good. So you can stop saying otherwise.
It is VERY obvious you think the protesters were justified since you place 100% of the responsibility on the NG.
I, too was around during that time but a bit younger than you.
My friends WERE THERE. Those four students that died were classmates and fellow students of theirs. They have every reason to place all of the blame on the NG, even more reason than you have, yet they don't. THEY KNOW what the mindset was that day. THEY KNOW what transpired because THEY WERE THERE.
So you will excuse me if i take their word for what happened over yours or Bill's or anyone else's.
Sorry if you don't like it but those are the breaks.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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>Sorry to burst yer bubble, skippy, but the confrontation was the sole
>responsibility of the students. Everything was ok...tense, but ok....until
> they made the conscious decision to escalate their actions with the
>express purpose of forcing a violent reaction. For that there is no
>justification

"Sorry to burst your bubble, toots, but the rape was the sole responsibility of the victim. Everything was OK . . . uncomfortable, but OK . . . until that woman made the conscious decision to cock-tease with that man with the express purpose of arousing him, For that there is no justification."

Fortunately no one buys that crap any more - for murder _or_ rape.

You surprise me, Bill. I know you are an intelligent person, yet you conyinue to stick with that analogy that just doesn't hold water.
Please, please PLEASE tell me where and when a rape victim goes out on the town with the intent of causing a violent reaction in a man but wants him to stop just short of "going to far"...and does it all by the use of illegal and violent acts herself.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jakee 1,489]

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the same as there is no justification or excuse for what the NG did.

The key part, right here. The protesters did nothing that justified the NG's decision to fire, they gave the NG no excuse to fire.

The protesters bear responsibility for what they did - but they did not get anyone shot. That was solely the fault of the National Guard.

And to be perfectly honest - you should feel bad.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

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Please, please PLEASE tell me where and when a rape victim goes out on the town with the intent of causing a violent reaction

No. Because that's not the parallel.

You know this, yet you keep going down this dead end road anyway.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[shropshire 0]

Clicky

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kallend 2,027]

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***

Sorry to burst yer bubble, skippy, but the confrontation was the sole responsibility of the students.

Ummm - NO.

Calling in the NG in the first place guaranteed a confrontation. Before that happened it was really no different than any of thousands of anti-war protests that went off without a massacre.

The students were retreating from the Commons over Blanket Hill. The NG was advancing with fixed bayonets.

By their own incompetence, the NG painted themselves in a corner in the practice field and panicked.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BillyVance 34]

Has Audie Murphy even been mentioned? He was one of the most decorated and famous soldiers of WWII, and even acted in 44 movies, including as himself in To Hell And Back, which IMO is one of the best WWII movies I've ever seen.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban