Famous Celebrities that have served in the Military...

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Please, please PLEASE tell me where and when a rape victim goes out on the town with the intent of causing a violent reaction in a man but wants him to stop just short of "going to far"...and does it all by the use of illegal and violent acts herself.

This counter argument would only hold water if you can establish that every person killed or injured at Kent was somebody who committed a violent, illegal act. (even then it is pretty questionable, but let's start there)

Can you?

[Andy9o8 2]

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Has Audie Murphy even been mentioned?

Yeah; post #27

[ctrl-F] ("find"); then type "Audie" in search box. Voila!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

some people will have to click "view all" first....

[Amazon 7]

Sorry SLICK but I also knew several people intimately, that WERE KENT STATE STUDENTS at the time and WERE THERE getting shot at that day. One of them was one of those dirty hippies that was protesting the illegal invasion of Cambodia by NIXON. It is ironic that now he is the epitome of THE MAN... the ESTABLISHMENT.. he is an upper echelon postal inspector( a federal agent). It was kinda freaky when he applied for and got the job of inspector back in 1983... badge.. gun and all.. but the haircut freaked out his wife even more.

You and others including all the ESTABLISHMENT hacks of the day... blame the students who were protesting the war. OK so we get it.... blame the victims....whatever helps the perpetrators and supporters of the Kent State massacre sleep at night

So the NG favorite sons brought a little WAR to them on American soil, I guess they taught those dirty hippies a lesson

Interesting how all of the shooters managed to get away with murder....under the guise of "self defense" by shooting unarmed civilians. I guess to protect themselves with M1 Garands seemed like a viable thing to do back in 1970. Pardon me if I dont think that very honorable. One thing it did do is foster changes in how people are handled by the authorities.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Sorry SLICK but I also knew several people intimately, that WERE KENT STATE STUDENTS at the time and WERE THERE getting shot at that day. One of them was one of those dirty hippies that was protesting the illegal invasion of Cambodia by NIXON. It is ironic that now he is the epitome of THE MAN... the ESTABLISHMENT.. he is an upper echelon postal inspector( a federal agent). It was kinda freaky when he applied for and got the job of inspector back in 1983... badge.. gun and all.. but the haircut freaked out his wife even more.

You and others including all the ESTABLISHMENT hacks of the day... blame the students who were protesting the war. OK so we get it.... blame the victims....whatever helps the perpetrators and supporters of the Kent State massacre sleep at night

So the NG favorite sons brought a little WAR to them on American soil, I guess they taught those dirty hippies a lesson

Interesting how all of the shooters managed to get away with murder....under the guise of "self defense" by shooting unarmed civilians. I guess to protect themselves with M1 Garands seemed like a viable thing to do back in 1970. Pardon me if I dont think that very honorable. One thing it did do is foster changes in how people are handled by the authorities.

Hey, my friends and myself don't feel there wa anything honorable about what happened that day either, so we are in agreement.
Where we disagree is your view that the protesters were innocent little cherubs who did nothing wrong.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Please, please PLEASE tell me where and when a rape victim goes out on the town with the intent of causing a violent reaction in a man but wants him to stop just short of "going to far"...and does it all by the use of illegal and violent acts herself.

This counter argument would only hold water if you can establish that every person killed or injured at Kent was somebody who committed a violent, illegal act. (even then it is pretty questionable, but let's start there)

Can you?

The protesters are being compared as a group to women who have been raped.

The protesters wanted trouble, they got more than they bargained for or deserved.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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***

Sorry to burst yer bubble, skippy, but the confrontation was the sole responsibility of the students.

Ummm - NO.

Calling in the NG in the first place guaranteed a confrontation. Before that happened it was really no different than any of thousands of anti-war protests that went off without a massacre.

The students were retreating from the Commons over Blanket Hill. The NG was advancing with fixed bayonets.

By their own incompetence, the NG painted themselves in a corner in the practice field and panicked.

Oh...so the protesters throwing rocks, disobeying a lawful order, breaking many other laws, etc. did not cause the violence that day....but bringing in the NG guaranteed a confrontation??
Talk about a double standard!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[billvon 3,071]

>Where we disagree is your view that the protesters were innocent little
>cherubs who did nothing wrong.

Nor is every rape victim an "innocent little cherub who did nothing wrong." Some made some questionable decisions, drank too much, led the guy on too much and/or reacted violently when he made a pass at them. None of which makes them responsible for the rape.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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the same as there is no justification or excuse for what the NG did.

The key part, right here. The protesters did nothing that justified the NG's decision to fire, they gave the NG no excuse to fire.

The protesters bear responsibility for what they did - but they did not get anyone shot. That was solely the fault of the National Guard.

And to be perfectly honest - you should feel bad.

Well, at least we agree on most of those points. Diff is, I consider their actions to be a direct cause of whatever happened afterwards (justified or not) and you don't. Here's some advice for you to consider through life: Whatever you do has consequences. It is wise to consider all consequences before doing something drastic.

And, uh, why should I feel bad?
I sympathise with those two innocent students who did nothing wrong, but I find it difficult to feel sorry for those who were actively and violently protesting and got shot. But that doesn't mean i think they deserved it.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Please, please PLEASE tell me where and when a rape victim goes out on the town with the intent of causing a violent reaction

No. Because that's not the parallel.

You know this, yet you keep going down this dead end road anyway.

That's the parallel that was given. If you want to make an analogy, they have to comparable. To be comparable, all events must be parallel including the actions of the victim(s).

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Amazon 7]

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the same as there is no justification or excuse for what the NG did.

The key part, right here. The protesters did nothing that justified the NG's decision to fire, they gave the NG no excuse to fire.

The protesters bear responsibility for what they did - but they did not get anyone shot. That was solely the fault of the National Guard.

And to be perfectly honest - you should feel bad.

Well, at least we agree on most of those points. Diff is, I consider their actions to be a direct cause of whatever happened afterwards (justified or not) and you don't. Here's some advice for you to consider through life: Whatever you do has consequences. It is wise to consider all consequences before doing something drastic.

And, uh, why should I feel bad?
I sympathise with those two innocent students who did nothing wrong, but I find it difficult to feel sorry for those who were actively and violently protesting and got shot. But that doesn't mean i think they deserved it.

Hmmm ok Mr Neidermeyer whatever you say.

Dean Wormer would be proud

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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the same as there is no justification or excuse for what the NG did.

The key part, right here. The protesters did nothing that justified the NG's decision to fire, they gave the NG no excuse to fire.

The protesters bear responsibility for what they did - but they did not get anyone shot. That was solely the fault of the National Guard.

And to be perfectly honest - you should feel bad.

Well, at least we agree on most of those points. Diff is, I consider their actions to be a direct cause of whatever happened afterwards (justified or not) and you don't. Here's some advice for you to consider through life: Whatever you do has consequences. It is wise to consider all consequences before doing something drastic.

And, uh, why should I feel bad?
I sympathise with those two innocent students who did nothing wrong, but I find it difficult to feel sorry for those who were actively and violently protesting and got shot. But that doesn't mean i think they deserved it.

Hmmm ok Mr Neidermeyer whatever you say.

Dean Wormer would be proud

Too bad you always have to resort to PA's and troll tactics. I honstly think you would have something intelligent to say otherwise.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Amazon 7]

That giant whoooooooooooossssssssshing sound is a huge CLUE passing right on over the upper midwest.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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That giant whoooooooooooossssssssshing sound is a huge CLUE passing right on over the upper midwest.

Ah yes, more PA's.
When somebody holds an opinio we don't like, we insult them.
It is a lot easier than trying to understand another's point of view.
Or maybe they "just need killin'" if we don't agree with them. After all, that's the military way, right?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Amazon 7]

OH as if stating my opinions to you has not gotten PA after PA claiming I am trolling? Give it a rest already.


Its not trolling.. its a statement of fact.. you on the other hand seem to LOVE the ESTABLISHMENT that did squat to a bunch of their favorite sons at a time when only the very BEST families were represented in the OHIO NG.

You are doing the EXACT same justification and blaming the victims as THE ESTABLISHMENT did 40 years ago this month. All the same arguements you used... are one and the same used by the President on down to the National Guardsmen to justify their actions that day.

The ESTABLISHMENT has morphed into what you guys lovingly refer to as CONSERVATIVE VALUES.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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OH as if stating my opinions to you has not gotten PA after PA claiming I am trolling? Give it a rest already.


Its not trolling.. its a statement of fact.. you on the other hand seem to LOVE the ESTABLISHMENT that did squat to a bunch of their favorite sons at a time when only the very BEST families were represented in the OHIO NG.

You are doing the EXACT same justification and blaming the victims as THE ESTABLISHMENT did 40 years ago this month. All the same arguements you used... are one and the same used by the President on down to the National Guardsmen to justify their actions that day.

The ESTABLISHMENT has morphed into what you guys lovingly refer to as CONSERVATIVE VALUES.

Honey, 99% of what you...and everyone else...does in SC is trolling. You excell better than most at riding that thin line between an acceptable PA and one that gets you a time-out from the mods.

As for the rest of your post...
It's all "the establishments" fault, huh? To use your own words, give it a rest. That's just a cop-out used instead of taking responsiblity for one's own actions.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Amazon 7]

Draftiepoo, do you think any of the FAVORITE SONS who opened fire with M1 GARAND rifles on unarmed Americans that day took responsibility for THEIR personal actions????

They are a window into what is really wrong with this country.... when people who should know better... blame those who could not and did not shoot back...... from the sounds of some of our more vociferous CONSERVATIVE posters here though... the cost of not listening to AUTHORITY... just like so many other people being killed by armed thugs who are part of the ESTABLISHMENT.... is DEATH.

Way to go YA'LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Draftiepoo, do you think any of the FAVORITE SONS who opened fire with M1 GARAND rifles on unarmed Americans that day took responsibility for THEIR personal actions????

They are a window into what is really wrong with this country.... when people who should know better... blame those who could not and did not shoot back...... from the sounds of some of our more vociferous CONSERVATIVE posters here though... the cost of not listening to AUTHORITY... just like so many other people being killed by armed thugs who are part of the ESTABLISHMENT.... is DEATH.

Way to go YA'LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Ok, just how many of the NG soldiers at Kent State were sons of politicians?
But you are right about one thing...a big part of the problems of this country can be attributed to people who don't take resaponsibility for their own actions. The protesters and their supporters have been crying for decades that THEY did nothing wrong, but we all know they knowingly and willfully broke the law and incited violence.
Our last two Presidents have denied responsibility for their actions and we have paid a heavy price for that.
The list goes on and on, I'm sure you know that.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jakee 1,563]

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Diff is, I consider their actions to be a direct cause of whatever happened afterwards (justified or not) and you don't.

You hold them responsible for other people's criminal decisions, I don't.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,563]

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That's the parallel that was given.

No, it's not. You're focusing on where there isn't a parallel rather than where there is a parallel.

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If you want to make an analogy, they have to comparable.

And it is.

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To be comparable, all events must be parallel including the actions of the victim(s).

Parallel != the same.

You seem to think that because the situation being discussed is one of violence, the parallel in the analogy must be about violent behaviour. That's clearly wrong.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Diff is, I consider their actions to be a direct cause of whatever happened afterwards (justified or not) and you don't.

You hold them responsible for other people's criminal decisions, I don't.

No, I hold them responsible for illegally and violently creating the situation that led to the illegal and violent decisions of the NG.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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That's the parallel that was given.

No, it's not. You're focusing on where there isn't a parallel rather than where there is a parallel.

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If you want to make an analogy, they have to comparable.

And it is.

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To be comparable, all events must be parallel including the actions of the victim(s).

Parallel != the same.

You seem to think that because the situation being discussed is one of violence, the parallel in the analogy must be about violent behaviour. That's clearly wrong.

You clearly have no concept about what an analogy is. If one side of the analogy concerns a violent response to a violent action, then the other side must. Otherwise you are comparing apples to sagebrush.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jakee 1,563]

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You clearly have no concept about what an analogy is.

You clearly have an incredibly limited understanding of analogies - and are acting as if you lack the imagination neccessary to use one.

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If one side of the analogy concerns a violent response to a violent action, then the other side must.

Oh really? You could find that written down in the big book of analogy rules, could you?

From Wiki: "In ancient Greek the word analogia originally meant proportionality, in the mathematical sense, and it was indeed sometimes translated to Latin as proportio. From there analogy was understood as identity of relation between any two ordered pairs, whether of mathematical nature or not. Kant's Critique of Judgment held to this notion. Kant argued that there can be exactly the same relation between two completely different objects."

The important thing is that the relationships between actions or intents are the same, not that the actions themselves are the same.

If you go down that road then the sooner or later the only useable analogy to the Kent State shooting is the Kent State shooting. And that's no good to man or sagebrush.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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The important thing is that the relationships between actions or intents are the same, not that the actions themselves are the same.

Great! We'll go with your definition. The protesters intent was to incite the NG to violence.
Where does a rape victim have the intent to incite her attacker to violence even if she is being a tease?

You could use a bit of imagination yourself.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jakee 1,563]

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Where does a rape victim have the intent to incite her attacker to violence even if she is being a tease?

She doesn't. But since it's been pointed out to you, time and time and time again and not just by me, that this is not the parallel that's being drawn it's an irrelevant point.

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Great! We'll go with your definition.

You just used your own definition again.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?