wmw999 2,447 #176 May 18, 2010 His point is that he has a LOT of anecdotal experience in that specific area (i.e. whether the basis for a stop is valid). It's what he does for a living. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #177 May 18, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote OK, once more: The fact that the statute's language "winks" at not ethnic profiling does not alter the fact that ethnic profiling is precisely what will happen: people will be stopped and ID'd SOLELY because they are Hispanic-looking, and the cops, if necessary, will fabricate a "legitimate" reason, after-the-fact, for stopping them. You're naive if you think otherwise. If they're fabricating "legitimate" reason they'd best do that before stopping them or they are in direct violation of this law. . Oh dear, I wonder who will arrest the cops for that.Bolas, Turtle, you are NOT that naive so stop pretending that you are. I have a funny feeling the police are highly aware of being set up and either video taped or voice recorded during a staged event. Something along the lines of throwing 20 Hispanic US citizens in the back of a van with 0 ID, then being pulled over for an intentionally broken tail light and then start speaking very little English. If those people are hauled off, cha ching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #178 May 18, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteWell, you got your opinion A vast majorty do not agree with you Sigh. OK, next time you're in the doctor's office and, based upon her training and experience, she gives you a diagnosis of illness and prognosis for its future course, you just tell her that. Drill, baby, drill! No point to make so you avoid it So you use a kallend tactic But I guess since you are a lawyer you can better predict the actions of the police. Now, care to make a prediction on any upcoming ruling the SC might make on this law? Why don't you tell us about your personal experiences in the courtroom, Marc, and how they contradict Andy's/... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #179 May 18, 2010 QuoteHis point is that he has a LOT of anecdotal experience in that specific area (i.e. whether the basis for a stop is valid). It's what he does for a living. Wendy P. And I jump out of airplanes Do you think all of my opinions about what will or should happen at a give DZ are valid? He is making predictions with a bias toward not liking the law. period"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #180 May 18, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWell, you got your opinion A vast majorty do not agree with you Sigh. OK, next time you're in the doctor's office and, based upon her training and experience, she gives you a diagnosis of illness and prognosis for its future course, you just tell her that. Drill, baby, drill! No point to make so you avoid it So you use a kallend tactic But I guess since you are a lawyer you can better predict the actions of the police. Now, care to make a prediction on any upcoming ruling the SC might make on this law? Why don't you tell us about your personal experiences in the courtroom, Marc, and how they contradict Andy's/ He is as wrong as you usually are so why bother (with you anyway)"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,447 #181 May 18, 2010 QuoteDo you think all of my opinions about what will or should happen at a give DZ are valid?They are probably a lot more valid than my brother's (he's made one jump and has a pilot's license). Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #182 May 18, 2010 QuoteQuoteDo you think all of my opinions about what will or should happen at a give DZ are valid?They are probably a lot more valid than my brother's (he's made one jump and has a pilot's license). Wendy P. A better example would that (as you might know) I work in the utility industry. I have opinions based on what I have seen about how coal fired plants are viewed and the real applicability of wind turbines. I am in the industry and I have real experience with and around them. So, I dont like them and that must be that huh....."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #183 May 18, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteWell, you got your opinion A vast majorty do not agree with you Sigh. OK, next time you're in the doctor's office and, based upon her training and experience, she gives you a diagnosis of illness and prognosis for its future course, you just tell her that. Drill, baby, drill! QuoteNo point to make so you avoid it The point being, to hit you over the head with it, is that dismissing an analysis based on facts, training and experience as "opinion" is silly, childish and basically meaningless. QuoteSo you use a kallend tactic Well, I appreciate the compliment to my intelligence; but truth be told, No: I have trouble even doing long division. QuoteBut I guess since you are a lawyer you can better predict the actions of the police. Well, of course I can; it's one of my fields of expertise: 30 years working in and around criminal justice, 25 years of that practicing criminal law. QuoteNow, care to make a prediction on any upcoming ruling the SC might make on this law? Close call; depends on the makeup of the Court when it rules. Will be a close split decision either way. If Kagan is on when it's decided, she might surprise people and vote in favor of upholding it. On the other hand, Scalia or Thomas might surprise people and vote to overturn it on the grounds that it intrudes on a subject matter pre-empted by existing federal law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #184 May 18, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWell, you got your opinion A vast majorty do not agree with you Sigh. OK, next time you're in the doctor's office and, based upon her training and experience, she gives you a diagnosis of illness and prognosis for its future course, you just tell her that. Drill, baby, drill! QuoteNo point to make so you avoid it The point being, to hit you over the head with it, is that dismissing an analysis based on facts, training and experience as "opinion" is silly, childish and basically meaningless. QuoteSo you use a kallend tactic Well, I appreciate the compliment to my intelligence; but truth be told, No: I have trouble even doing long division. QuoteBut I guess since you are a lawyer you can better predict the actions of the police. Well, of course I can; it's one of my fields of expertise: 30 years working in and around criminal justice, 25 years of that practicing criminal law. QuoteNow, care to make a prediction on any upcoming ruling the SC might make on this law? Close call; depends on the makeup of the Court when it rules. Will be a close split decision either way. If Kagan is on when it's decided, she might surprise people and vote in favor of upholding it. On the other hand, Scalia or Thomas might surprise people and vote to overturn it on the grounds that it intrudes on a subject matter pre-empted by existing federal law. The law will be upheld No more than 3 disenting votes and should be none As for you expereince. You see what is in court. How many more never make it to court that discount your examples??? The concentration of what you see is misleading to what really happens in my opinion But I am glad no one can have a disenting view point against one as experienced as you lable yourself to be"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #185 May 18, 2010 This is just silly. Taking the time to answer you point-by-point as if you're willing to have a rational, adult discussion is like having a conversation with the Queen in Through the Looking Glass. This is why I rarely even bother. Whatever, Marc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #186 May 18, 2010 Quote This is just silly. Taking the time to answer you point-by-point as if you're willing to have an adult discussion is like having a conversation with the Queen in Through the Looking Glass. Whatever, Marc. You resorted to this comment once before and it came back to slap you in the faceBut I am sorry if you can not see the fact that what you see in a court is by default a concentrated example that only exposes one side. I am not saying the things you post do not happen. I am arguing that it is silly for you to make broad generalizations on what you do see and purposfully ignore (here anyway) what you do not. And again, do you remember the predictions of shoot outs in the streets what the FL and TX gun laws were changed? Were you in on that argument? Did it happen in end? You have an opinion, and others have thiers. Sorry if some do not agree with you. It would be a shame if those people treated you as you do them here huh"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bolas 5 #187 May 18, 2010 QuoteI have a funny feeling the police are highly aware of being set up and either video taped or voice recorded during a staged event. Something along the lines of throwing 20 Hispanic US citizens in the back of a van with 0 ID, then being pulled over for an intentionally broken tail light and then start speaking very little English. If those people are hauled off, cha ching. Sounds like a legit stop to me, albeit not a very common one usually. Just because a law isn't always enforced doesn't mean it can't be. If the officers only detain the citizens until their identities can be established, they could sue, but doubt they'd win. If one of the "actors" acted in a threating manner or tried to assault or run from an officer, that would be the wildcard depending on what level of force the officers used to maintain control of the situation.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #188 May 19, 2010 What really bothers me is, I hear how illegals 'live in fear' of being picked-up and sent home because they're here illegally. People in this country wanting to 'protect' them. Even politicians. The President of Mexico is against Arizona's law. I take that as, he doesn't want his own people or have to deal with them or their plight. To me, it's simple. they are law breakers and should be dealt with. If, they 'live in fear', it's fear by their own making. How we run our country or deal with illegals from Mexico, is none of the Mexican President's business. He sure, doesn't want or pay any attention to how he runs his country. This is our country... not Mexico's. We keep going the way we are and it just might be. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 220 #189 May 19, 2010 QuoteWhat really bothers me is, I hear how illegals 'live in fear' of being picked-up and sent home because they're here illegally. People in this country wanting to 'protect' them. Even politicians. The President of Mexico is against Arizona's law. I take that as, he doesn't want his own people or have to deal with them or their plight. To me, it's simple. they are law breakers and should be dealt with. If, they 'live in fear', it's fear by their own making. How we run our country or deal with illegals from Mexico, is none of the Mexican President's business. He sure, doesn't want or pay any attention to how he runs his country. This is our country... not Mexico's. We keep going the way we are and it just might be. Chuck I bet if we could negotiate penalties for all countries to impose penalties for their own citizens to pay if illegal border crossing is attempted, and they are caught, it would drive down illegals a little bit too.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #190 May 19, 2010 I don't think, that would fly but it sounds good! Slap a fine on them for each illegal we apprehend. That way, they couldn't afford to print pamplets containing information on the best times and places to cross, what to take with them on their long walk to sneak into this country. By the way... how can people trust a 'sneak'? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeorgiaDon 362 #191 May 20, 2010 QuoteI bet if we could negotiate penalties for all countries to impose penalties for their own citizens to pay if illegal border crossing is attempted, and they are caught, it would drive down illegals a little bit too. Sorry to ask, but can you repeat that- in English? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeorgiaDon 362 #192 May 20, 2010 QuoteThat way, they couldn't afford to print pamplets containing information on the best times and places to cross, what to take with them on their long walk to sneak into this country.Maybe the US could print and distribute the pamphlets; if we told them when and where to cross, we could get them to walk right onto the Border Patrol vans, instead of having to search all over the desert for them. Seriously, I would hope Obama read Fox the riot act over blatantly encouraging violation of US law. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 220 #193 May 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteI bet if we could negotiate penalties for all countries to impose penalties for their own citizens to pay if illegal border crossing is attempted, and they are caught, it would drive down illegals a little bit too. Sorry to ask, but can you repeat that- in English? Don Yeah - I see where I should clarify . . . Perhaps the US should impose economic penalties on all countries that DO NOT penalize attempted illegal enty into the United states. For instance: If we catch them and send them home, they get to go to jail in their own country. That should theoretically be a deterrent. It definately would be a stronger deterrent than threatening them with jail time here. We should impose even stronger sanctions if there is encouragement to illegaly enter the US. Like these guys.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeorgiaDon 362 #194 May 20, 2010 Thanks, that does help. QuotePerhaps the US should impose economic penalties on all countries that DO NOT penalize attempted illegal enty into the United states. For instance: If we catch them and send them home, they get to go to jail in their own country. That should theoretically be a deterrent. It definately would be a stronger deterrent than threatening them with jail time here. I totally sympathize with the sentiment, but it would probably be impossible to enforce. How could we possibly force Mexico to keep violators of US law in prison there? How would we respond if Mexico were to demand that we imprison US citizens in the US for violation of Mexican law? QuoteWe should impose even stronger sanctions if there is encouragement to illegaly enter the US. Yeah, that has got to stop. Maybe we could close their consular offices until they cease and desist. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #195 May 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteThat way, they couldn't afford to print pamplets containing information on the best times and places to cross, what to take with them on their long walk to sneak into this country.Maybe the US could print and distribute the pamphlets; if we told them when and where to cross, we could get them to walk right onto the Border Patrol vans, instead of having to search all over the desert for them. Are you joking? Can't take a chance on hurting his feelings! Chuck Seriously, I would hope Obama read Fox the riot act over blatantly encouraging violation of US law. Don Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 220 #196 May 20, 2010 QuoteThanks, that does help. QuotePerhaps the US should impose economic penalties on all countries that DO NOT penalize attempted illegal enty into the United states. For instance: If we catch them and send them home, they get to go to jail in their own country. That should theoretically be a deterrent. It definately would be a stronger deterrent than threatening them with jail time here. I totally sympathize with the sentiment, but it would probably be impossible to enforce. How could we possibly force Mexico to keep violators of US law in prison there? How would we respond if Mexico were to demand that we imprison US citizens in the US for violation of Mexican law? QuoteWe should impose even stronger sanctions if there is encouragement to illegaly enter the US. Yeah, that has got to stop. Maybe we could close their consular offices until they cease and desist. Don If we catch them here and deport them - the government they are returned to would be required to enforce their own laws under some kind of treaty or agreement. They could do something similar to when the UN was doing periodic random mandatory inspections. That would serve two purposes. One would be inspecting the prisons and jails so that they are up to the standards of basic human rights. The other would be to make sure that all agreed upon laws are being followed. I guess less an inspection and more of an audit. Here is what a neighboring country has in its constitution . . . ------------- ……Mexican authorities must keep track of every single person in the country: •Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73) •A National Population Registry keeps track of “every single individual who comprises the population of the country,” and verifies each individual’s identity. (Articles 85 and 86) •A national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), and assigns each individual with a unique tracking number (Article 91). Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned: •Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116) •Foreigners who sign government documents “with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses” are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116) Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons: •Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117) •Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118) •Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico — such as working with out a permit — can also be imprisoned. http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14632 If we made it clear to them that this would happen EVERY TIME, it would make a difference.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites futuredivot 0 #197 May 20, 2010 Eight pages and really, the only important word I see is "illegal". Just enforce existing law. If you don't agree with the law, work to change it. We have a proven process for doing that here-in the mean time-enforce the law.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #198 May 20, 2010 QuoteOK, once more: The fact that the statute's language "winks" at not ethnic profiling does not alter the fact that ethnic profiling is precisely what will happen: people will be stopped and ID'd SOLELY because they are Hispanic-looking, and the cops, if necessary, will fabricate a "legitimate" reason, after-the-fact, for stopping them. You're naive if you think otherwise. So glad you are so able to predict the future. There's money in that if you use it for something constructive. YOUR problem is with the cops and how they operate. So, why are you getting your panties all wadded up over this immigration issue? Go hammer on the cops. There's no law that is going to ensure that they all operate above-the-table. I do understand that since you cannot make them do that, you have take out your frustrations on other issues. The sad part is that you squirm against something you cannot change. "Profiling" goes on every day by everybody, everywhere...yes even YOU. "You're naive if you think otherwise" back atchya.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RonD1120 62 #199 May 22, 2010 Quote Quote 2 Corinthians 9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. "From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs." -Karl Marx On the surface both of these quotes appear to lead to the same end result. There is a significant difference in the motivational aspects of the two however. In the former, the Biblical principle as written by the Apostle Paul, the motivation is, what is mine is yours, I'll share it. This attitude reflects charity and generosity. In contrast, the latter, representing the philosophy of Karl Marx, reflects a motivation of selfish covetousness. Namely, what is yours is mine, I'll take it. In your world, without a loving God to care for and guide His children, power and force, especially of the state, is all there is. In your society, people are not charitable or generous. God blesses His children in a way that they are assured a piece of an infinitely growing pie. To Karl Marx the pie is finite and the size of one reduces the size of the other slices. Sad, so sad. I am blessed indeed, not to live in your society.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #200 May 22, 2010 I am blessed indeed, not to live in your society. Right back at ya. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 8 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
rushmc 23 #184 May 18, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWell, you got your opinion A vast majorty do not agree with you Sigh. OK, next time you're in the doctor's office and, based upon her training and experience, she gives you a diagnosis of illness and prognosis for its future course, you just tell her that. Drill, baby, drill! QuoteNo point to make so you avoid it The point being, to hit you over the head with it, is that dismissing an analysis based on facts, training and experience as "opinion" is silly, childish and basically meaningless. QuoteSo you use a kallend tactic Well, I appreciate the compliment to my intelligence; but truth be told, No: I have trouble even doing long division. QuoteBut I guess since you are a lawyer you can better predict the actions of the police. Well, of course I can; it's one of my fields of expertise: 30 years working in and around criminal justice, 25 years of that practicing criminal law. QuoteNow, care to make a prediction on any upcoming ruling the SC might make on this law? Close call; depends on the makeup of the Court when it rules. Will be a close split decision either way. If Kagan is on when it's decided, she might surprise people and vote in favor of upholding it. On the other hand, Scalia or Thomas might surprise people and vote to overturn it on the grounds that it intrudes on a subject matter pre-empted by existing federal law. The law will be upheld No more than 3 disenting votes and should be none As for you expereince. You see what is in court. How many more never make it to court that discount your examples??? The concentration of what you see is misleading to what really happens in my opinion But I am glad no one can have a disenting view point against one as experienced as you lable yourself to be"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #185 May 18, 2010 This is just silly. Taking the time to answer you point-by-point as if you're willing to have a rational, adult discussion is like having a conversation with the Queen in Through the Looking Glass. This is why I rarely even bother. Whatever, Marc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #186 May 18, 2010 Quote This is just silly. Taking the time to answer you point-by-point as if you're willing to have an adult discussion is like having a conversation with the Queen in Through the Looking Glass. Whatever, Marc. You resorted to this comment once before and it came back to slap you in the faceBut I am sorry if you can not see the fact that what you see in a court is by default a concentrated example that only exposes one side. I am not saying the things you post do not happen. I am arguing that it is silly for you to make broad generalizations on what you do see and purposfully ignore (here anyway) what you do not. And again, do you remember the predictions of shoot outs in the streets what the FL and TX gun laws were changed? Were you in on that argument? Did it happen in end? You have an opinion, and others have thiers. Sorry if some do not agree with you. It would be a shame if those people treated you as you do them here huh"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bolas 5 #187 May 18, 2010 QuoteI have a funny feeling the police are highly aware of being set up and either video taped or voice recorded during a staged event. Something along the lines of throwing 20 Hispanic US citizens in the back of a van with 0 ID, then being pulled over for an intentionally broken tail light and then start speaking very little English. If those people are hauled off, cha ching. Sounds like a legit stop to me, albeit not a very common one usually. Just because a law isn't always enforced doesn't mean it can't be. If the officers only detain the citizens until their identities can be established, they could sue, but doubt they'd win. If one of the "actors" acted in a threating manner or tried to assault or run from an officer, that would be the wildcard depending on what level of force the officers used to maintain control of the situation.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #188 May 19, 2010 What really bothers me is, I hear how illegals 'live in fear' of being picked-up and sent home because they're here illegally. People in this country wanting to 'protect' them. Even politicians. The President of Mexico is against Arizona's law. I take that as, he doesn't want his own people or have to deal with them or their plight. To me, it's simple. they are law breakers and should be dealt with. If, they 'live in fear', it's fear by their own making. How we run our country or deal with illegals from Mexico, is none of the Mexican President's business. He sure, doesn't want or pay any attention to how he runs his country. This is our country... not Mexico's. We keep going the way we are and it just might be. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 220 #189 May 19, 2010 QuoteWhat really bothers me is, I hear how illegals 'live in fear' of being picked-up and sent home because they're here illegally. People in this country wanting to 'protect' them. Even politicians. The President of Mexico is against Arizona's law. I take that as, he doesn't want his own people or have to deal with them or their plight. To me, it's simple. they are law breakers and should be dealt with. If, they 'live in fear', it's fear by their own making. How we run our country or deal with illegals from Mexico, is none of the Mexican President's business. He sure, doesn't want or pay any attention to how he runs his country. This is our country... not Mexico's. We keep going the way we are and it just might be. Chuck I bet if we could negotiate penalties for all countries to impose penalties for their own citizens to pay if illegal border crossing is attempted, and they are caught, it would drive down illegals a little bit too.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #190 May 19, 2010 I don't think, that would fly but it sounds good! Slap a fine on them for each illegal we apprehend. That way, they couldn't afford to print pamplets containing information on the best times and places to cross, what to take with them on their long walk to sneak into this country. By the way... how can people trust a 'sneak'? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeorgiaDon 362 #191 May 20, 2010 QuoteI bet if we could negotiate penalties for all countries to impose penalties for their own citizens to pay if illegal border crossing is attempted, and they are caught, it would drive down illegals a little bit too. Sorry to ask, but can you repeat that- in English? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeorgiaDon 362 #192 May 20, 2010 QuoteThat way, they couldn't afford to print pamplets containing information on the best times and places to cross, what to take with them on their long walk to sneak into this country.Maybe the US could print and distribute the pamphlets; if we told them when and where to cross, we could get them to walk right onto the Border Patrol vans, instead of having to search all over the desert for them. Seriously, I would hope Obama read Fox the riot act over blatantly encouraging violation of US law. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 220 #193 May 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteI bet if we could negotiate penalties for all countries to impose penalties for their own citizens to pay if illegal border crossing is attempted, and they are caught, it would drive down illegals a little bit too. Sorry to ask, but can you repeat that- in English? Don Yeah - I see where I should clarify . . . Perhaps the US should impose economic penalties on all countries that DO NOT penalize attempted illegal enty into the United states. For instance: If we catch them and send them home, they get to go to jail in their own country. That should theoretically be a deterrent. It definately would be a stronger deterrent than threatening them with jail time here. We should impose even stronger sanctions if there is encouragement to illegaly enter the US. Like these guys.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeorgiaDon 362 #194 May 20, 2010 Thanks, that does help. QuotePerhaps the US should impose economic penalties on all countries that DO NOT penalize attempted illegal enty into the United states. For instance: If we catch them and send them home, they get to go to jail in their own country. That should theoretically be a deterrent. It definately would be a stronger deterrent than threatening them with jail time here. I totally sympathize with the sentiment, but it would probably be impossible to enforce. How could we possibly force Mexico to keep violators of US law in prison there? How would we respond if Mexico were to demand that we imprison US citizens in the US for violation of Mexican law? QuoteWe should impose even stronger sanctions if there is encouragement to illegaly enter the US. Yeah, that has got to stop. Maybe we could close their consular offices until they cease and desist. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #195 May 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteThat way, they couldn't afford to print pamplets containing information on the best times and places to cross, what to take with them on their long walk to sneak into this country.Maybe the US could print and distribute the pamphlets; if we told them when and where to cross, we could get them to walk right onto the Border Patrol vans, instead of having to search all over the desert for them. Are you joking? Can't take a chance on hurting his feelings! Chuck Seriously, I would hope Obama read Fox the riot act over blatantly encouraging violation of US law. Don Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 220 #196 May 20, 2010 QuoteThanks, that does help. QuotePerhaps the US should impose economic penalties on all countries that DO NOT penalize attempted illegal enty into the United states. For instance: If we catch them and send them home, they get to go to jail in their own country. That should theoretically be a deterrent. It definately would be a stronger deterrent than threatening them with jail time here. I totally sympathize with the sentiment, but it would probably be impossible to enforce. How could we possibly force Mexico to keep violators of US law in prison there? How would we respond if Mexico were to demand that we imprison US citizens in the US for violation of Mexican law? QuoteWe should impose even stronger sanctions if there is encouragement to illegaly enter the US. Yeah, that has got to stop. Maybe we could close their consular offices until they cease and desist. Don If we catch them here and deport them - the government they are returned to would be required to enforce their own laws under some kind of treaty or agreement. They could do something similar to when the UN was doing periodic random mandatory inspections. That would serve two purposes. One would be inspecting the prisons and jails so that they are up to the standards of basic human rights. The other would be to make sure that all agreed upon laws are being followed. I guess less an inspection and more of an audit. Here is what a neighboring country has in its constitution . . . ------------- ……Mexican authorities must keep track of every single person in the country: •Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73) •A National Population Registry keeps track of “every single individual who comprises the population of the country,” and verifies each individual’s identity. (Articles 85 and 86) •A national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), and assigns each individual with a unique tracking number (Article 91). Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned: •Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116) •Foreigners who sign government documents “with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses” are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116) Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons: •Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117) •Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118) •Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico — such as working with out a permit — can also be imprisoned. http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14632 If we made it clear to them that this would happen EVERY TIME, it would make a difference.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites futuredivot 0 #197 May 20, 2010 Eight pages and really, the only important word I see is "illegal". Just enforce existing law. If you don't agree with the law, work to change it. We have a proven process for doing that here-in the mean time-enforce the law.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #198 May 20, 2010 QuoteOK, once more: The fact that the statute's language "winks" at not ethnic profiling does not alter the fact that ethnic profiling is precisely what will happen: people will be stopped and ID'd SOLELY because they are Hispanic-looking, and the cops, if necessary, will fabricate a "legitimate" reason, after-the-fact, for stopping them. You're naive if you think otherwise. So glad you are so able to predict the future. There's money in that if you use it for something constructive. YOUR problem is with the cops and how they operate. So, why are you getting your panties all wadded up over this immigration issue? Go hammer on the cops. There's no law that is going to ensure that they all operate above-the-table. I do understand that since you cannot make them do that, you have take out your frustrations on other issues. The sad part is that you squirm against something you cannot change. "Profiling" goes on every day by everybody, everywhere...yes even YOU. "You're naive if you think otherwise" back atchya.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RonD1120 62 #199 May 22, 2010 Quote Quote 2 Corinthians 9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. "From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs." -Karl Marx On the surface both of these quotes appear to lead to the same end result. There is a significant difference in the motivational aspects of the two however. In the former, the Biblical principle as written by the Apostle Paul, the motivation is, what is mine is yours, I'll share it. This attitude reflects charity and generosity. In contrast, the latter, representing the philosophy of Karl Marx, reflects a motivation of selfish covetousness. Namely, what is yours is mine, I'll take it. In your world, without a loving God to care for and guide His children, power and force, especially of the state, is all there is. In your society, people are not charitable or generous. God blesses His children in a way that they are assured a piece of an infinitely growing pie. To Karl Marx the pie is finite and the size of one reduces the size of the other slices. Sad, so sad. I am blessed indeed, not to live in your society.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #200 May 22, 2010 I am blessed indeed, not to live in your society. Right back at ya. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #185 May 18, 2010 This is just silly. Taking the time to answer you point-by-point as if you're willing to have a rational, adult discussion is like having a conversation with the Queen in Through the Looking Glass. This is why I rarely even bother. Whatever, Marc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #186 May 18, 2010 Quote This is just silly. Taking the time to answer you point-by-point as if you're willing to have an adult discussion is like having a conversation with the Queen in Through the Looking Glass. Whatever, Marc. You resorted to this comment once before and it came back to slap you in the faceBut I am sorry if you can not see the fact that what you see in a court is by default a concentrated example that only exposes one side. I am not saying the things you post do not happen. I am arguing that it is silly for you to make broad generalizations on what you do see and purposfully ignore (here anyway) what you do not. And again, do you remember the predictions of shoot outs in the streets what the FL and TX gun laws were changed? Were you in on that argument? Did it happen in end? You have an opinion, and others have thiers. Sorry if some do not agree with you. It would be a shame if those people treated you as you do them here huh"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #187 May 18, 2010 QuoteI have a funny feeling the police are highly aware of being set up and either video taped or voice recorded during a staged event. Something along the lines of throwing 20 Hispanic US citizens in the back of a van with 0 ID, then being pulled over for an intentionally broken tail light and then start speaking very little English. If those people are hauled off, cha ching. Sounds like a legit stop to me, albeit not a very common one usually. Just because a law isn't always enforced doesn't mean it can't be. If the officers only detain the citizens until their identities can be established, they could sue, but doubt they'd win. If one of the "actors" acted in a threating manner or tried to assault or run from an officer, that would be the wildcard depending on what level of force the officers used to maintain control of the situation.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #188 May 19, 2010 What really bothers me is, I hear how illegals 'live in fear' of being picked-up and sent home because they're here illegally. People in this country wanting to 'protect' them. Even politicians. The President of Mexico is against Arizona's law. I take that as, he doesn't want his own people or have to deal with them or their plight. To me, it's simple. they are law breakers and should be dealt with. If, they 'live in fear', it's fear by their own making. How we run our country or deal with illegals from Mexico, is none of the Mexican President's business. He sure, doesn't want or pay any attention to how he runs his country. This is our country... not Mexico's. We keep going the way we are and it just might be. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #189 May 19, 2010 QuoteWhat really bothers me is, I hear how illegals 'live in fear' of being picked-up and sent home because they're here illegally. People in this country wanting to 'protect' them. Even politicians. The President of Mexico is against Arizona's law. I take that as, he doesn't want his own people or have to deal with them or their plight. To me, it's simple. they are law breakers and should be dealt with. If, they 'live in fear', it's fear by their own making. How we run our country or deal with illegals from Mexico, is none of the Mexican President's business. He sure, doesn't want or pay any attention to how he runs his country. This is our country... not Mexico's. We keep going the way we are and it just might be. Chuck I bet if we could negotiate penalties for all countries to impose penalties for their own citizens to pay if illegal border crossing is attempted, and they are caught, it would drive down illegals a little bit too.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #190 May 19, 2010 I don't think, that would fly but it sounds good! Slap a fine on them for each illegal we apprehend. That way, they couldn't afford to print pamplets containing information on the best times and places to cross, what to take with them on their long walk to sneak into this country. By the way... how can people trust a 'sneak'? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #191 May 20, 2010 QuoteI bet if we could negotiate penalties for all countries to impose penalties for their own citizens to pay if illegal border crossing is attempted, and they are caught, it would drive down illegals a little bit too. Sorry to ask, but can you repeat that- in English? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #192 May 20, 2010 QuoteThat way, they couldn't afford to print pamplets containing information on the best times and places to cross, what to take with them on their long walk to sneak into this country.Maybe the US could print and distribute the pamphlets; if we told them when and where to cross, we could get them to walk right onto the Border Patrol vans, instead of having to search all over the desert for them. Seriously, I would hope Obama read Fox the riot act over blatantly encouraging violation of US law. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #193 May 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteI bet if we could negotiate penalties for all countries to impose penalties for their own citizens to pay if illegal border crossing is attempted, and they are caught, it would drive down illegals a little bit too. Sorry to ask, but can you repeat that- in English? Don Yeah - I see where I should clarify . . . Perhaps the US should impose economic penalties on all countries that DO NOT penalize attempted illegal enty into the United states. For instance: If we catch them and send them home, they get to go to jail in their own country. That should theoretically be a deterrent. It definately would be a stronger deterrent than threatening them with jail time here. We should impose even stronger sanctions if there is encouragement to illegaly enter the US. Like these guys.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #194 May 20, 2010 Thanks, that does help. QuotePerhaps the US should impose economic penalties on all countries that DO NOT penalize attempted illegal enty into the United states. For instance: If we catch them and send them home, they get to go to jail in their own country. That should theoretically be a deterrent. It definately would be a stronger deterrent than threatening them with jail time here. I totally sympathize with the sentiment, but it would probably be impossible to enforce. How could we possibly force Mexico to keep violators of US law in prison there? How would we respond if Mexico were to demand that we imprison US citizens in the US for violation of Mexican law? QuoteWe should impose even stronger sanctions if there is encouragement to illegaly enter the US. Yeah, that has got to stop. Maybe we could close their consular offices until they cease and desist. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #195 May 20, 2010 QuoteQuoteThat way, they couldn't afford to print pamplets containing information on the best times and places to cross, what to take with them on their long walk to sneak into this country.Maybe the US could print and distribute the pamphlets; if we told them when and where to cross, we could get them to walk right onto the Border Patrol vans, instead of having to search all over the desert for them. Are you joking? Can't take a chance on hurting his feelings! Chuck Seriously, I would hope Obama read Fox the riot act over blatantly encouraging violation of US law. Don Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #196 May 20, 2010 QuoteThanks, that does help. QuotePerhaps the US should impose economic penalties on all countries that DO NOT penalize attempted illegal enty into the United states. For instance: If we catch them and send them home, they get to go to jail in their own country. That should theoretically be a deterrent. It definately would be a stronger deterrent than threatening them with jail time here. I totally sympathize with the sentiment, but it would probably be impossible to enforce. How could we possibly force Mexico to keep violators of US law in prison there? How would we respond if Mexico were to demand that we imprison US citizens in the US for violation of Mexican law? QuoteWe should impose even stronger sanctions if there is encouragement to illegaly enter the US. Yeah, that has got to stop. Maybe we could close their consular offices until they cease and desist. Don If we catch them here and deport them - the government they are returned to would be required to enforce their own laws under some kind of treaty or agreement. They could do something similar to when the UN was doing periodic random mandatory inspections. That would serve two purposes. One would be inspecting the prisons and jails so that they are up to the standards of basic human rights. The other would be to make sure that all agreed upon laws are being followed. I guess less an inspection and more of an audit. Here is what a neighboring country has in its constitution . . . ------------- ……Mexican authorities must keep track of every single person in the country: •Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73) •A National Population Registry keeps track of “every single individual who comprises the population of the country,” and verifies each individual’s identity. (Articles 85 and 86) •A national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), and assigns each individual with a unique tracking number (Article 91). Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned: •Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116) •Foreigners who sign government documents “with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses” are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116) Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons: •Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117) •Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118) •Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico — such as working with out a permit — can also be imprisoned. http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14632 If we made it clear to them that this would happen EVERY TIME, it would make a difference.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #197 May 20, 2010 Eight pages and really, the only important word I see is "illegal". Just enforce existing law. If you don't agree with the law, work to change it. We have a proven process for doing that here-in the mean time-enforce the law.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #198 May 20, 2010 QuoteOK, once more: The fact that the statute's language "winks" at not ethnic profiling does not alter the fact that ethnic profiling is precisely what will happen: people will be stopped and ID'd SOLELY because they are Hispanic-looking, and the cops, if necessary, will fabricate a "legitimate" reason, after-the-fact, for stopping them. You're naive if you think otherwise. So glad you are so able to predict the future. There's money in that if you use it for something constructive. YOUR problem is with the cops and how they operate. So, why are you getting your panties all wadded up over this immigration issue? Go hammer on the cops. There's no law that is going to ensure that they all operate above-the-table. I do understand that since you cannot make them do that, you have take out your frustrations on other issues. The sad part is that you squirm against something you cannot change. "Profiling" goes on every day by everybody, everywhere...yes even YOU. "You're naive if you think otherwise" back atchya.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #199 May 22, 2010 Quote Quote 2 Corinthians 9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. "From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs." -Karl Marx On the surface both of these quotes appear to lead to the same end result. There is a significant difference in the motivational aspects of the two however. In the former, the Biblical principle as written by the Apostle Paul, the motivation is, what is mine is yours, I'll share it. This attitude reflects charity and generosity. In contrast, the latter, representing the philosophy of Karl Marx, reflects a motivation of selfish covetousness. Namely, what is yours is mine, I'll take it. In your world, without a loving God to care for and guide His children, power and force, especially of the state, is all there is. In your society, people are not charitable or generous. God blesses His children in a way that they are assured a piece of an infinitely growing pie. To Karl Marx the pie is finite and the size of one reduces the size of the other slices. Sad, so sad. I am blessed indeed, not to live in your society.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #200 May 22, 2010 I am blessed indeed, not to live in your society. Right back at ya. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
