Interesting Muslim stuff

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If any party or group who advocates, advances, prepares for or executes a plan to kill others solely because of the way those others pray or fail to pray or because the party or group believes they have been ordered to kill the others by some deity, spirit or other supernatural being, that party or group is a threat to my peaceful existance and the peaceful existance of others. In that case, I would appreciate it if they would all gather in one place for a regretable, but necessary, pre-emptive strike.

Would this include refering to a war as a crusade?

[sundevil777 102]

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>Please don't imply that America is high up on the list of that activity.

It's interesting that the mere mention of the fact that the US shares responsibility for the current state of affairs in the middle east will get this kind of response. Do you only read conservative news, or watch conservative news shows, for your idea of what's gone on in the world?

It is disgusting that so many will blame America first, and the Arabs last, or not at all.

I get info from many sources, including liberal sources such as the BBC, PBS, NPR, and other major media outlets. Do you only get info from these liberal biased sources? You likely don't consider them lib biased, in which case your blinders are too firmly attached. Perhaps you've bought into the crap that so many news sources publish that is fed to them by the Palestinian Authority, I do not.

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>Most of the world has been able to get over the past conflicts/imperialism/however you want to call it and has learned to simply pursue a prosperous future in peace. Germans and Japanese were able to do it, why can't Arabs?

Maybe because it's still going on? It's not the past for them. It's happening now.

It's happening now due to their own actions. They are not simply victims of circumstances beyond their control.

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>Jews are willing to live in Peace with their neighbors, why can't Arabs?

Can we make the discussion a little wider? This is an entirely different topic. The past has not shown Jews living in peace with their neighbors, nor does it currently, if you are talking about Isreal. Start another thread if you want to continue this one.

Jews haven't had peace because of the Arabs - they just can't handle how WWII ended and what the rest of the world (in the form of the UN) did to create Israel. They vowed to eradicate it, have failed again and again, but now want the land they lost in those wars back.

The Jews are willing to live in peace with their neighbors, it is some of their Arab neighbors that are not.

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>it is due to the bigotry, prejudice, and hatred from the Arabs.

I live in the middle east. What's your perspective? How many Arabs do you talk to? I live and work with Arabs every day. They don't hate me, or us, or the US. It's irresponsible to make those kinds of generalizations.

My perspective - I'm Jewish. Perhaps the Arabs you know don't hate you because you agree that they are the victims, I don't know. Of course when I assert the Arabs are to blame, I am blaming the Arab leadership. That is why I long for the kind of leadership Sadat exhibited. He had led his country to war against Israel, then realized his people were not served well by such actions, he had a true change of heart and was able to make peace with Israel. Now you've got Egypt having to fight against the Palestinians that are causing trouble on their border.

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>Feelings of guilt by Americans will not bring this about.

I didn't say anything about the US needing to feel guilty. I said we should acknowledge that we share responsibility for the current situation. I suggested that it is a mindset that will help us move forward in a way that doesn't include genocide. Clearly, that got an emotional response from you. Are you suggesting that genocide is, in fact, the answer?

I don't suggest genocide is the answer, I want others to recognize that Arabs do in fact advocate exactly that.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,994]

> and the Crusades (happened 1000 years ago [and fully justified]

What justified them?

[RackJR 0]

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It is disgusting that so many will blame America first, and the Arabs last, or not at all.

So if I say that the US shares responsibility, you will change my intent to it being that I've blamed America? That isn't what I said, although you seem very willing to change what is said to fit what you think. You did it in the last response as well. Is this the method you employ, to marginalize (in your mind) those who disagree with your viewpoints? The US shares responsibility for the situation we currently find ourselves in.

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It's happening now due to their own actions. They are not simply victims of circumstances beyond their control.

A lot of innocent people have been killed, a lot of people suffering, because they are living in proximity to the extremists who carried out 9/11. The same way that any war fought on US soil will claim the lives of people who do not fully agree with what some portion of the country has chosen to do. It is a cycle of violence which we share responsibility for. It has to stop. You seem to want to lay all the responsibility on them. To me that seems like a very narrow viewpoint.

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My perspective - I'm Jewish.

Which explains the emotion.

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Perhaps the Arabs you know don't hate you because you agree that they are the victims, I don't know. Of course when I assert the Arabs are to blame, I am blaming the Arab leadership.

Boy, you really like to twist the words of others, huh? Could you use a quote from anything that I have written anywhere where I called the Arabs victims? Are you really that fired up about me saying the US shares responsibility? However, since I don't discuss politics with people here, unless they bring it up, they wouldn't really know, would they? They're still pretty friendly. Perhaps because they are open minded enough that they don't pretend I am to blame for everything the leaders of my country have done. Maybe they know better than to claim that Americans advocate genocide, because a few within the US advocate genocide.

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I don't suggest genocide is the answer, I want others to recognize that Arabs do in fact advocate exactly that.

Clearly what you want people to recognize. I think it's great that you say Arab Leadership in one sentence, then go on to say that Arabs advocate genocide. Hopefully you'll take this as a lesson learned, that I'm living among Arabs every day, and I'm still breathing. Clearly, in spite of what you'd like people to recognize, Arabs do not advocate genocide.

Some Americans advocate genocide of (take your pick, Asians, Blacks, Browns, Jews, Catholics, etc.) Some Arabs advocate genocide of (Americans, Jews, other Arabs who don't agree with them, etc.). My first post on this thread was about someone, in the good ole USA, advocated rounding up those people in one place, to wipe them out. Sounds like you're all for it. Remind me again, what separates you from them? Lemme guess.... you're right and your fight is the good fight?

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[BillyVance 34]

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> and the Crusades (happened 1000 years ago [and fully justified]

What justified them?

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

Justification depends on which side you're asking. Muslims were encroaching into Roman Catholic occupied areas and imposing their own way of life. Calls for help went out and the Crusaders came to beat them back, although one original goal was to push the Muslims out of the Holy Land and restore Christian rule.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[billvon 2,994]

>Muslims were encroaching into Roman Catholic occupied areas and
>imposing their own way of life. Calls for help went out and the Crusaders
>came to beat them back . . .

. . and, of course, impose their way of life. The Crusades also involved the massacre of Jews (who stood with the Muslims when they defended Jerusalem) and the persecution, imprisonment and killing of orthodox (i.e. heretic) Christians.

I agree on the causes of the first Crusade, but also worry about justifying any holy war on the basis of "getting our land back" - whether it's called a crusade or a jihad. That sort of war never ends.

[Amazon 7]

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>Muslims were encroaching into Roman Catholic occupied areas and
>imposing their own way of life. Calls for help went out and the Crusaders
>came to beat them back . . .

. . and, of course, impose their way of life. The Crusades also involved the massacre of Jews (who stood with the Muslims when they defended Jerusalem) and the persecution, imprisonment and killing of orthodox (i.e. heretic) Christians.

I agree on the causes of the first Crusade, but also worry about justifying any holy war on the basis of "getting our land back" - whether it's called a crusade or a jihad. That sort of war never ends.

Well then.... the military-industrial complex will be forever willing and able to supply all the weapons needed.... we only need to supply new bodies for cannon fodder.. ... and since population is still spiraling upward... we are good to go.

[sundevil777 102]

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they don't pretend I am to blame for everything the leaders of my country have done. Maybe they know better than to claim that Americans advocate genocide, because a few within the US advocate genocide.

You wonder why I say you're part of the blame America first/most crowd? You've exemplified it right there.

The Arabs explicitly advocate genocide. They just can't live with the result of WWII and what the world (though the UN) did after the end. They are the ones choosing war.

Perhaps you're a pacifist that will decide against war no matter what.

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Remind me again, what separates you from them? Lemme guess.... you're right and your fight is the good fight?

Because we are at war with a very dangerous enemy, one that wants to destroy us and has the ability to do it. I understand that you don't recognize it for what it really is.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[wmw999 2,447]

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The Arabs explicitly advocate genocide

No, some Arabs explicitly advocate genocide. Some of them are even in leadership positions. But that's no more representative of all Arabs than Obama (or Bush) is representative of all Americans.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,994]

>Because we are at war with a very dangerous enemy, one that wants to
>destroy us and has the ability to do it.

If you get enough people to believe that, then we will become the ones who advocate genocide. After all, it's the final solution to dealing with a race that only wants to destroy us, and who want war anyway. Why not just give them what they want? Anyone who objects will be labeled a clueless, ignorant pacifist.

[sundevil777 102]

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>Because we are at war with a very dangerous enemy, one that wants to
>destroy us and has the ability to do it.

If you get enough people to believe that, then we will become the ones who advocate genocide. After all, it's the final solution to dealing with a race that only wants to destroy us, and who want war anyway. Why not just give them what they want? Anyone who objects will be labeled a clueless, ignorant pacifist.

You had posed the following question earlier in this thread:

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If you could get all the radical Muslim elements to gather in Pakistan, so we don't have to hunt them down all over the world (including here) would you be for or against that?

My answer was yes, all for it. Since we are at war with them, why doesn't that make sense?

That answer to your question does not equate to genocide. A military victory in the current war against radical islam does not equate to genocide. This is still a world largely controlled by the use of military force to achieve political objectives - Especially with radical islam.

Perhaps you want to try more diplomacy, perhaps it just hasn't been tried by someone that really means them well, maybe that's why it has failed.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,994]

>>If you could get all the radical Muslim elements to gather in Pakistan,
>>so we don't have to hunt them down all over the world (including here)
>>would you be for or against that?

>My answer was yes, all for it.

OK. Oddly enough that's exactly the same answer she gave - and I suspect her reasons were very similar to yours.

>Perhaps you want to try more diplomacy, perhaps it just hasn't been tried
>by someone that really means them well, maybe that's why it has failed.

Try it if you like. If not, that's fine too. In that case leave them alone unless they attack us, then destroy the people who attacked us. (Not people who look like the people who attacked us, or the people who pray to the same God, or the people with the same color skin - the actual group of people who attacked us.)

[sundevil777 102]

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Try it if you like. If not, that's fine too. In that case leave them alone unless they attack us

They have attacked us

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then destroy the people who attacked us. (Not people who look like the people who attacked us, or the people who pray to the same God, or the people with the same color skin - the actual group of people who attacked us.)

When have I advocated that we attack those that pray to the same god or look the same? If I did, I didn't mean to do it.

Do you think no war is justified unless we are attacked? I think we should have been involved in WWII long before we did, and that isn't because the Germans sunk some American ships. What the Germans and Japanese were doing justified stopping them before the Pearl Harbor attack and before the invasion of Poland. Do you agree? Some libs strongly advocate that we should not sit by and watch the atrocities in Africa continue. Clinton and a coalition of Europeans agreed that we shouldn't let things continue in the Balkans. Just trying to get a sense of the degree to which you are an isolationist.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,994]

>They have attacked us

Al Qaeda has attacked us. They're the enemy. Muslims, even radical ones, are not.

> If I did, I didn't mean to do it.

Good! Characterizing a sect of a religion as "the enemy" is, in general, a bad idea, one we dislike intensely when other people do it.

>Do you think no war is justified unless we are attacked?

In general, no. "Pre-emptive war" waged for our own benefit is, IMO, immoral.

>What the Germans and Japanese were doing justified stopping them
>before the Pearl Harbor attack and before the invasion of Poland. Do you
>agree?

No. We won World War II by supporting England economically when they needed it and entering it only we had to. We won the Cold War by NOT starting a pre-emptive war, despite a country that said as clearly as they could "we will destroy you." I hope future generations show the same wisdom.

[RackJR 0]

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You wonder why I say you're part of the blame America first/most crowd? You've exemplified it right there.

Do you want to be held accountable for every single thing that the US government does, because you were born there? I didn't vote for GW, I think he's an idiot, and I'm glad that people don't hold me accountable for some of the insane choices he made. All I'm saying is that I'm thankful the people I've met here have shown themselves to be a lot more open minded then you are showing yourself to be. What I wonder is how you take me saying that the US shares responsibility and twist it into me blaming America. You clearly have no problem continuing to do it. I can only guess then that you feel the US has absolutely no responsibility for anything that's going on. We are actually the victims in all this. Every one of our bullets finds the proper target. Every bomb finds Al Qaeda. Every action we have taken in the middle east has been completely laudable and good. We have done absolutely no wrong. Is this the position you defend? Don't twist any more of my words. Use your own.

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Perhaps you're a pacifist that will decide against war no matter what.

Nope.

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The Arabs explicitly advocate genocide.

Really hard for you to say SOME Arabs, huh?

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Because we are at war with a very dangerous enemy, one that wants to destroy us and has the ability to do it. I understand that you don't recognize it for what it really is.

I imagine that the Arabs who advocate genocide of the US employ a very similar, if not identical speech. Remind me again, what separates you from them? You should understand that I and others recognize zealots for what they really are, no matter which side they're on.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[Guest]

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> and the Crusades (happened 1000 years ago [and fully justified]

What justified them?

The muslim invasion of Europe. The existing European powers (read - the Church) didn't just get a wild hair up their ass and decide to invade muslim lands (although I will agree that at least to some extent, religion was an excuse to make war for fun and profit, though the Western powers were no more guilty of this than the muslims were). I find it astonishing that these myths are still common knowledge in the West. You can thank liberal scholastic book publishers for that.

The Moors were finally driven out of Spain in 1492. Now they're back and are more aggressive and hostile than ever, all the while pumping out anti-Western, anti-semitic propaganda and portraying themselves as "victims" (with the aid of leftists in the West), whereas the record shows that many more "infidels" throughout history have been the innocent victims of ruthless muslim aggression than the other way around. It's as though the the poor jihadis can't help themselves, being raised in a brainwashing cult of death.

All of what is currently going on is nothing new. It (radical islam) bubbles up over and over again throughout history.

It keeps showing up in the same old way, we'll keep killing it the same old way. Some things never change; however, it's modern media-mania and the manipulation thereof that makes it look any different from what it was like at the walls of Constantinople in 1453.

"They keep calling theirs the 'religion of peace', and we'll keep saying it's not a crusade."

mh
.
edit for spelling and parsing

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[shropshire 0]

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The existing European powers (read - the Church) didn't just get a wild hair up their ass and decide to invade muslim lands

But you think that it was totally different from the other perspective ..... Did the Moors get a hair up their arse and decided to invade Christian lands ...

So called Christians have always been doing that kind of thing ... going to other countries to 'Save' folks by bringing their flavour of god.

When the Spanish threw the Moors out, they lost so much ... Art, maths, architecture.

Countries have invade other countries and taken them over for so long, we don't even know when it started .... Take a look at my country (England) .... and The Americas. Don't be just putting this down to Islam. To do so is over simplification on a grand scale.

Even base animals do it .... the poor old Red Squirrel is being pushed out by the Grey (American BTW).

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[sundevil777 102]

You say you're not a pacifist, but expect war to be conducted with no innocents killed because when that happens you say we share responsibility... It sounds like you should be a pacifist.

I don't have a problem saying "some Arabs". Do you have a problem acknowledging that radical islam is a great threat to the free world and is waging war against it?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[RackJR 0]

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but expect war to be conducted with no innocents killed because when that happens you say we share responsibility

We share responsibility for a lot of reasons, none of which I have outlined, at all. If you're going to assert that I said something, put it in quotes, and STOP TWISTING WHAT I SAY. When I was talking about innocents being killed because of their proximity to the perps of 9/11, it was in response to you saying that Arabs were not innocent victims. Jesus is this really how you carry on a conversation? Twist what other people say to fit it into whatever passes for your paradigm? Use your own words, stop twisting mine. I can't believe you're going this crazy over the implication that the US shares responsibility for our current situation.

I guess you don't want to answer any of the other questions?

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Do you have a problem acknowledging that radical islam is a great threat to the free world and is waging war against it?

Nope, I sure don't. But after talking with you, you sound like the same kind of problem in a different package.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[sundevil777 102]

Of course war has innocent victims. It appears that you expect it to possible to wage war against the taliban and AQ without innocents being killed. Perhaps you should be a pacifist, at least that would be consistent.

The Palestinians, for instance, portray themselves as innocent victims, and are aided by much of the media including the BBC and others.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[shropshire 0]

A lot of Palestinians ARE innocent - you can't/shouldn't smear a whole population based upon the actions of a few.

Palestinian != Terrorist

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[RackJR 0]

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It appears that you expect it to possible to wage war against the taliban and AQ without innocents being killed.

yawn. Can't put what I say in quotes, because it won't fit your argument? So you just keep twisting it up? Please quote from one of my posts where I said this.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[RackJR 0]

And don't forget to label me a pacifist.... for the 4th time. At least that will make you consistent. Maybe if you keep saying it, people will believe it. Seems to be your MO.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[Darius11 12]

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Your "blame America" screed

FIRST-Its not about a blame game it is actual things that we have done that none of us would ever tolerate if it was done to us.

SECOUND- Its about understanding that religion is a tool however the reasoning and the anger is because of our actions.

You keep missing that FACT because its convenient to think there are bad guys who just are magically bad so they must die. No guilt no thought process

I understand it makes things a lot easier for you to only view things in black and white but that’s not the case.

THE POINT AGAIN. It’s not Islam it is unjustified actions that we have committed that make people hate us. Religion Islam much like Christianity is a tool used to unite people in a cause. Unfortunately when you do approach any thing in a black and white view things tend to go to extreme side of things.


You still didn’t tell me what would we do if any country treated us like we do them. What would we do if they had warships on our shores, invade our country because they claim we have weapons that they already have, cruise missile attacks on aspirin factory because they said we were making bombs, I CAN GO ON AND ON AND ON, but what’s the point your brain might short circuit if you actually tried to understand someone’s else’s point of you.

How does it feel when you cant even be honest with your self?
You know what we would do, and you know the violance of action we would use but yet you excuse our actions, the very same actions that we would never tolaret and retaliat againts by violance.

Really tell me what would the CHRISTIAN American people do if there was one warship 200 miles of Florida?

Can you answere that?

The reality is we would respond as we always do with violence, but when we do it you guys twist and turn to make it seem like it was holy, even when there is countless evidence that our actions have cost many many inocent lives.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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I got it...it's all our fault and we deserve what we get.

BTW, wasn't the world supposed to love us if we elected Obama?

What are you 4?


Simple questions. What would you the rational none extremist none Muslim want us to do if a country invaded us? What would you the very peaceful non barbaric Christian American do if Libya shot a cruse missile at an aspirin factory because they claimed we were making bombs? What would you do if another country told us to stop using a cretin technology that they already had because it was too powerful and we could no be trusted with it?


Can you answer any of those honestly and yet at the same time condemn others for acting as we would?

Seriously how does your brain work to be able to justify actions when we do them but immediately condemn the same actions when someone else does it? I don’t even get how that works. I really don't.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain